Battery replacement

Jan 20, 2015
14
Hunter 30 Frisco, CO
Recently purchased a 1990 Hunter 30 but the batteries have been removed. Was told the boat uses one starter and one house battery. Plan to install AGM deep cycles for both batteries but have been told that the large amp draw on the starter side is hard on deep cycles. Also no information on the boat as to what group size battery the boat uses.

Any help would be appreciated.
 

ALNims

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Jul 31, 2014
208
Hunter 356 Huis Ten Bosch Marina, Sasebo, Japan
What does your battery charger allow? AGM? Gel? Lead-Acid? I would start there first before you purchase the batteries.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,479
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
It seems like a lot of people have friends who are happy to offer advice but are a little short on being helpful or correct.

Using deep cycle batteries to start a small engine is not a problem. Doing so provides the added benefit of a back-up assuming you want to run them independently.

Size is a function of what your amp-hr usage typically is between recharges, not the boat size. Most people estimate their usage and duty cycle to determine what size batteries to install. Remember, bigger batteries also require a higher capacity alternator and shore power charger.
 
May 24, 2004
7,178
CC 30 South Florida
That is partly correct. The thing is that the starter high amp draw on these small engines can be easily handled by a deep cycle battery without undue wear to the plates. On the plus side having two deep cycle batteries gives you the ability of combining them through a battery switch for increased house capacity or to keep them separate for redundancy and backup. Many that do not have a need for a large battery bank choose to just rotate them always keeping one battery in reserve for starting purposes. As far as the size the available space is the limit. Most folks in your class use group 27's. I was just reading that the claim that AGM batteries have a lower rate of self discharge has failed to be proven in numerous tests. The article stated that most manufacturers have stopped citing that as a selling feature. Make sure your inboard charger is capable of charging AGM.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I was just reading that the claim that AGM batteries have a lower rate of self discharge has failed to be proven in numerous tests. The article stated that most manufacturers have stopped citing that as a selling feature. Make sure your inboard charger is capable of charging AGM.
Do you have a source for that, I'd love to read it? I have numerous AGM's sitting in my test room all still hoovering above 13V and many of them have been off charge for 4+ weeks. I have found the self discharge of AGM slower than flooded but I have also not seen flooded batteries self discharge at anywhere near the claimed rate the AGM makers suggest they do...
 
Aug 15, 2013
193
Hunter 35.5 Legend 003 San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico
Do you have a source for that, I'd love to read it? I have numerous AGM's sitting in my test room all still hoovering above 13V and many of them have been off charge for 4+ weeks. I have found the self discharge of AGM slower than flooded but I have also not seen flooded batteries self discharge at anywhere near the claimed rate the AGM makers suggest they do...
What you are seeing is surface charge on the plates. A small resistive load for a short period will peel that surface charge (SoC) off and give you a better reading of state-of-charge, however, battery voltage is a poor indicator of SoC. Sulfation of the plates due to inactivity creates a high resistance at the surface of the plates, thereby the high voltage. How much of a load to apply is moot, as long as you do the same thing every time. The loss from the load can be calculated, but should really be minor.

Using deep cycle batteries for this application of starting a sailboat engine has way more benefits than drawbacks. No, its not the best, but it won't hurt the batteries. I prefer flooded (wet) batteries to AGM due to cost, but cost comes at a price, you must water them and equalize them occasionally. AGM and wet batteries charge at different voltages and not applying the correct voltage will ruin your batteries.

Don't over-think it. Charge them, discharge them. Keep them charged when not using them. Deep cycle batteries like to be used.

On a side note-someone was talking about breaking in batteries, they were entirely correct. Lead Peroxide turns to lead sulfate crystals on discharge. These crystals are embedded in the plates. How deep you discharge determines how embedded the lead sulfate crystals reach. This exposes more surface area to the electrolyte and more amp-hour capacity. So an initial deep cycle or two is good, as long as they are fully recharged between cycles. Everything always comes at a price. A lead-acid battery is a consumable item, always trying to reach back to its equilibrium (discharged). Cycling the battery causing sloughing of the plates, can't be avoided, which reduces life. There is a balance, less discharge equals longer life but means bigger battery bank. Deeper discharge (using the battery the way it was meant to be used) means shorter life due to loss of lead.

Never leave your battery in a discharged state, as those lead-sulfate crystals get hard, and they are hard to return to sulfuric acid solution... thereby creating a "sulfated battery" with high internal resistance, that shows voltage because of surface charge but can't deliver any current.

The biggest offender of sulfation is not leaving a trickle charge on your batteries (but be sure to water them if they are wet). Morningstar (sunsaver) has an excellent PWM controller that allows charging two separate banks, select battery chemistry (AGM or wet), allowing 90% to one set (house) and 10% to the starting battery (usually less capacity).

Thomas Edison had a quote that went something like "...batteries bring out the inability of sales people to tell the truth..." That is me paraphrasing.....

As for references, this is the "bible" on VRLA batteries. I don't have the second edition, just the first. However, it is VERY heavy into VRLA electrochemistry.
Battery Technology Handbook (Electrical and Computer Engineering) Hardcover – August 29, 2003, by H.A. Kiehne (Author)
ISBN-13: 978-0824742492 ISBN-10: 0824742494 Edition: 2nd

This would be what I would consider the bible on Lead-Acid. While lead acid technologies have evolved, if you read this, you will understand 95% of all lead-acid wet battery technology. The newer stuff is like adding carbon to make batteries into "Ultra-capacitors", etc - those are more exotic....
Storage Batteries: A General Treatise on the Physics and Chemistry of Secondary Batteries and Their Engineering Applications Hardcover – December, 1955, by George W. Vinal (Author)
 
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May 24, 2004
7,178
CC 30 South Florida
Do you have a source for that, I'd love to read it? I have numerous AGM's sitting in my test room all still hoovering above 13V and many of them have been off charge for 4+ weeks. I have found the self discharge of AGM slower than flooded but I have also not seen flooded batteries self discharge at anywhere near the claimed rate the AGM makers suggest they do...
I'm sorry I looked for the link but could not find it again. I did not read the whole article but a line about the self discharge rate caught my eye. Perhaps you can schedule a project to do a bench comparison between AGM and lead/acid to determine the actual difference between them. Like you say if the discharge rate of the flooded batteries is not as large as the AGM proponents say it may be the difference between the two types that tell the tale. You may also want to look into the statement that AGM manufacturers have stopped using the low self discharge rate as a product claim. I'll keep on looking and if I find it I'll send it to you.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,711
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
What you are seeing is surface charge on the plates. A small resistive load for a short period will peel that surface charge (SoC) off and give you a better reading of state-of-charge, however, battery voltage is a poor indicator of SoC. Sulfation of the plates due to inactivity creates a high resistance at the surface of the plates, thereby the high voltage. How much of a load to apply is moot, as long as you do the same thing every time. The loss from the load can be calculated, but should really be minor.
The surface charge or how long the battery holds it at XX temp is indicative of the batteries self discharge rate. In my shop AGM and GEL batteries have considerably slower self discharge than flooded lead acid but the current generation of "marine" batteries don't discharge at the rates the competition suggests they do.

Using deep cycle batteries for this application of starting a sailboat engine has way more benefits than drawbacks. No, its not the best, but it won't hurt the batteries. I prefer flooded (wet) batteries to AGM due to cost, but cost comes at a price, you must water them and equalize them occasionally. AGM and wet batteries charge at different voltages and not applying the correct voltage will ruin your batteries.
Exactly a deep cycle battery has zero issues starting a small aux diesel and has far more benefits than it does drawbacks. Lifeline AGM batteries also need equalization while East Penn, Trojan, Odyssey, Northstar and others can not be equalized. IF water loss is an issue a watering system is an inexpensive installation..

On a side note-someone was talking about breaking in batteries, they were entirely correct. Lead Peroxide turns to lead sulfate crystals on discharge. These crystals are embedded in the plates. How deep you discharge determines how embedded the lead sulfate crystals reach. This exposes more surface area to the electrolyte and more amp-hour capacity. So an initial deep cycle or two is good, as long as they are fully recharged between cycles.
Different battery types & brands take different numbers of cycles to attain "rated capacity". Due to the way AGM plates are formed most of the commercial AGM's used in marine applications can cycle up to capacity in just 3-7 deep cycles. Deep cycle flooded batteries can take 100 or more cycles to cycle up to rated Ah capacity...

Never leave your battery in a discharged state, as those lead-sulfate crystals get hard, and they are hard to return to sulfuric acid solution... thereby creating a "sulfated battery" with high internal resistance, that shows voltage because of surface charge but can't deliver any current.
This can not be over emphasized. It is perhaps the #1 killer of marine batteries, chronic undercharging or chronic PSOC operation, and the lack of ability to reverse the effects of sulfation....

The biggest offender of sulfation is not leaving a trickle charge on your batteries (but be sure to water them if they are wet). Morningstar (sunsaver) has an excellent PWM controller that allows charging two separate banks, select battery chemistry (AGM or wet), allowing 90% to one set (house) and 10% to the starting battery (usually less capacity).
This depends greatly on the quality of the charger and the battery you are using. Some VRLA AGM's have a shelf life exceeding 24 months (EnerSys claims even longer) with no charging while others require it at just 3 months..

With any boat that has parasitic loads some form of float charging will be necessary just be sure to choose a good quality product as there are many garbage charging products out there...

This is a direct quote from Dave Vutetakis one of the most experienced VRLA engineers out there. He is currently head of engineering at Lifeline / Concord..

"Lead-acid batteries always should be stored in the charged state. If allowed to remain in the discharged state for a prolonged time period, the battery becomes damaged by “sulfation.” Sulfation occurs when lead sulfate forms into large, hard crystals, blocking the pores in the active material. The sulfation creates a high impedance condition that makes it difficult for the battery to accept recharge. The sulfation may or may not be reversible, depending on the discharge conditions and specific cell design. The ability to recovery from deep discharge has been improved in recent years by electrolyte additives, such as sodium sulfate.

As in the case of activated VLA batteries, periodic charging is necessary to overcome the effects of self-discharge and to prevent sulfation. The rate of self-discharge of SLA batteries varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer, so the necessary charging frequency also varies widely. For example, recommended charging frequencies can range from 3 to 24 months."




As for references, this is the "bible" on VRLA batteries. I don't have the second edition, just the first. However, it is VERY heavy into VRLA electrochemistry.
Battery Technology Handbook (Electrical and Computer Engineering) Hardcover – August 29, 2003, by H.A. Kiehne (Author)
ISBN-13: 978-0824742492 ISBN-10: 0824742494 Edition: 2nd

This would be what I would consider the bible on Lead-Acid. While lead acid technologies have evolved, if you read this, you will understand 95% of all lead-acid wet battery technology. The newer stuff is like adding carbon to make batteries into "Ultra-capacitors", etc - those are more exotic....
Storage Batteries: A General Treatise on the Physics and Chemistry of Secondary Batteries and Their Engineering Applications Hardcover – December, 1955, by George W. Vinal (Author)
You might also check out Handbook of Batteries Third Edition by Linden & Reddy
 
Aug 15, 2013
193
Hunter 35.5 Legend 003 San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico
Maine Sail, excellent information. Great exchange. Love talking batteries. Yes, the Linden book is excellent for all different kinds of battery chemistries, a cornacopia of technologies as I like to say.... I am not an electro-chemist, but boy, If I had it to do over again I would go to school and become an electro-chemist. All that energy just waiting to be unleashed. I spent a few years working for DOE in photovoltaics and stand-alone PV systems at Sandia National Labs. Researching charging batteries in PV systems. All my knowledge comes from reading books, empirical testing, and working with battery manufacturers. I don't do that work anymore, been out of batteries for awhile.

Just replaced all my batteries on my new-to-me Hunter (440 & 220 Ah banks - love my electricity when in the Sea of Cortez). Previous owner replaced them in the winter one year and they were junk because he never put solar panels on his boat. Personally I like the 3 stage "Smart Charger" (used to be sold at PepBoys), has an excellent battery desulfation mode. If not too bad, it can bring a battery back. My Clipper Marine 26 has a set of GC-2's since 2006, still going strong.

Fair winds, keep the great information coming. By the way, I'm a huge fan of Butyl Rubber.....
 
May 24, 2004
7,178
CC 30 South Florida
Went through my search history and still cannot find the article but in looking found one posting by an individual who ran his own test and his posted results indicate that flooded self discharge rate is about twice as high as AGM. No information on the batteries tested was given.