I will be taking delivery of a new 340 this spring. We ordered the boat with 12v refrigeration and the dealer informs me that the boat will be delivered with 2 group 24 batterues, 1 house and 1 starting. After owning a 29.5 with refrigeration, I know that the battery power is not enough. In fact I added a group 27 to the group 24 on the house side to increase amp hours, this worked well but at times ran a little short on a early arrival and late departure from an anchorage. My question would be, what is the best battery setup in this situation. I talked to the dealer and they will give me a credit for the 2 group 24's towards and upgrade in battery power. I was thinking of upgrading to a group 27 for starting and installing 2 group 30 batteries on the house side. Has anyone had experience with this type of setup? Would it be better if I used 2 6 volts instead of the 2 group 30's? I know that I could go to a larger 4D or 8D but space is an issue. I really would like the batteries to be all together in the starboard lazaret. I guess my real question is are 2 group 30 12v batteries better than 2 6v batteries with both having about the same total amp hours. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
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golf cart batteries
This may start some debate, but generally golf cart batteries will give you the most bang for your bucks. This is partly because they are made in such volumes for consumer use, which keep their price down, and partly because they are pretty long lasting. There is no inherent advantage to 2 - 6 volts over 1 - 12 volt. A 12 volt battery is just 6 - 2 volt cells packaged together, a 6 volt battery is just 3 - 2 volt cells packaged together, it takes 2 of them to make 12 volts. The real trick is to find the battery that, due to construction, material, price and a few other things - maybe size - that makes it good for your application. If you are just going out for the day, 2 of the golf cart batteries (around 225 amp hours, 112 usable) will probably give you enough capacity to last the day, and probably overnight, without recharging. If you plan to be out longer you need to do some calculations and figure out your usage to see just where you are. If you go with the group 30 batteries (I'm not familiar with their capacities) you need to find the amp hour capacities, then figure out how much you will use while you are away from the dock. Take your expected usage, double it, that is the battery capicity you will need. (It's pretty hard on batteries to discharge them below 50% of their capacity and it will greatly shorten their lifespan.) Good luck, Gene Gruender Rainbow Chaser http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/cabana/7414
This may start some debate, but generally golf cart batteries will give you the most bang for your bucks. This is partly because they are made in such volumes for consumer use, which keep their price down, and partly because they are pretty long lasting. There is no inherent advantage to 2 - 6 volts over 1 - 12 volt. A 12 volt battery is just 6 - 2 volt cells packaged together, a 6 volt battery is just 3 - 2 volt cells packaged together, it takes 2 of them to make 12 volts. The real trick is to find the battery that, due to construction, material, price and a few other things - maybe size - that makes it good for your application. If you are just going out for the day, 2 of the golf cart batteries (around 225 amp hours, 112 usable) will probably give you enough capacity to last the day, and probably overnight, without recharging. If you plan to be out longer you need to do some calculations and figure out your usage to see just where you are. If you go with the group 30 batteries (I'm not familiar with their capacities) you need to find the amp hour capacities, then figure out how much you will use while you are away from the dock. Take your expected usage, double it, that is the battery capicity you will need. (It's pretty hard on batteries to discharge them below 50% of their capacity and it will greatly shorten their lifespan.) Good luck, Gene Gruender Rainbow Chaser http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/cabana/7414
Battery Equations
12v fridges use about 50 amp hrs per day. Most boats your size will use another 50 amp hrs per day if energy consumption is moderate. Given the inefficiencies of batteries, alternators, chargers, etc., the "experts" recommend either 3X or 4X daily energy usage for the battery bank to last the longest. This means the battery bank won't be discharged more than 50% of its capacity before being recharged, and it will not be recharged before becoming discharged about 50%. It might seem like a lot, but it's what's needed for the convenience of cold food and drink. OK all you acid heads (wet cell, gel cell, AGM, 12v, 6v, etc. included), chime on in on this oft-discussed topic.
12v fridges use about 50 amp hrs per day. Most boats your size will use another 50 amp hrs per day if energy consumption is moderate. Given the inefficiencies of batteries, alternators, chargers, etc., the "experts" recommend either 3X or 4X daily energy usage for the battery bank to last the longest. This means the battery bank won't be discharged more than 50% of its capacity before being recharged, and it will not be recharged before becoming discharged about 50%. It might seem like a lot, but it's what's needed for the convenience of cold food and drink. OK all you acid heads (wet cell, gel cell, AGM, 12v, 6v, etc. included), chime on in on this oft-discussed topic.
That's the 64,000 amp question
Tim: I think you've hit upon an interesting issue relative to the 340. On my 340, I have 4 group 24 batteries with a total of about 340 amp hours. I think the kind of sailing you intend to do is an important consideration in configuring batteries. My 340 has fairly basic stuff with the refrigeration, lights, stereo, instruments, as well as fans, radar, and autopilot. I often sail in 24 to 48 hour stretches offshore. This means I consume 200 plus amp hours in 24 hours even if I only run the radar at night rather than all 24 hours. Even if you subtract the radar, I would still consume about 180 amp hours daily and consume about 13 amps per hour after dark. Even at anchor, in a 24 hour period, I would expect to consume about 140 to 150 amp hours daily. If you intend to be away from dockside for more than 48 hours or so, your challenge is not merely to have enough amp hours of capacity on board, but to have a means of recharging batteries. Your alternator is an internally-regulated, 55 amp Hitachi. To replace 200 amp hours daily, you have to run the motor alot. I have somewhat comprised between having a ton of amp hour capacity on board and having ability to recharge rapidly. I'm sticking with the 4 group 24 batteries and upgrading the alternator to 115 amps with a three stage Balmar regulator. I believe this will cut my daily recharging time to about 2.2 hours from the present 4 hours. Of course, one could expand the possibilities to include passive energy sources. OK, let's hear from the rest of you.
Tim: I think you've hit upon an interesting issue relative to the 340. On my 340, I have 4 group 24 batteries with a total of about 340 amp hours. I think the kind of sailing you intend to do is an important consideration in configuring batteries. My 340 has fairly basic stuff with the refrigeration, lights, stereo, instruments, as well as fans, radar, and autopilot. I often sail in 24 to 48 hour stretches offshore. This means I consume 200 plus amp hours in 24 hours even if I only run the radar at night rather than all 24 hours. Even if you subtract the radar, I would still consume about 180 amp hours daily and consume about 13 amps per hour after dark. Even at anchor, in a 24 hour period, I would expect to consume about 140 to 150 amp hours daily. If you intend to be away from dockside for more than 48 hours or so, your challenge is not merely to have enough amp hours of capacity on board, but to have a means of recharging batteries. Your alternator is an internally-regulated, 55 amp Hitachi. To replace 200 amp hours daily, you have to run the motor alot. I have somewhat comprised between having a ton of amp hour capacity on board and having ability to recharge rapidly. I'm sticking with the 4 group 24 batteries and upgrading the alternator to 115 amps with a three stage Balmar regulator. I believe this will cut my daily recharging time to about 2.2 hours from the present 4 hours. Of course, one could expand the possibilities to include passive energy sources. OK, let's hear from the rest of you.
Go with the 6V golf cart
After you figure out the usage etc, & match up to the power needed, I do not know the $ equation, but I do know the true 6V golf battery will take a deeper discharge more times with less damage than any marine battery. I installed a 8D for my house battery in my H34 and although it has sufficient power for long distance races, its a back breaker and you can forget about taking it in & out for the winter. When its time to replace the 8D, I am going with 2 sets of 2 6Vs. BOL PJ
After you figure out the usage etc, & match up to the power needed, I do not know the $ equation, but I do know the true 6V golf battery will take a deeper discharge more times with less damage than any marine battery. I installed a 8D for my house battery in my H34 and although it has sufficient power for long distance races, its a back breaker and you can forget about taking it in & out for the winter. When its time to replace the 8D, I am going with 2 sets of 2 6Vs. BOL PJ
Use 6 Volt
I have a H34. I have added microwave, tv, refrigeration, autohelm plus more. I figure my daily needs are 185 AH even if I conserve power. I first installed an Exide 8-D from Boat US. It was rated at approximately 225 AH. It did not do the job. The first one had a cracked case and Boat US replaced it. The next one would drop to 11.2 volts after a night at anchor. I then removed the 8-D, which is heavy and difficult to handle, and replaced it with (4) 6 volt golfcart batteries which I purchased from Sam's Club. They have worked fine. My wife is now happy and the price for the 6 volt batteries was less than I paid for the 8-D.
I have a H34. I have added microwave, tv, refrigeration, autohelm plus more. I figure my daily needs are 185 AH even if I conserve power. I first installed an Exide 8-D from Boat US. It was rated at approximately 225 AH. It did not do the job. The first one had a cracked case and Boat US replaced it. The next one would drop to 11.2 volts after a night at anchor. I then removed the 8-D, which is heavy and difficult to handle, and replaced it with (4) 6 volt golfcart batteries which I purchased from Sam's Club. They have worked fine. My wife is now happy and the price for the 6 volt batteries was less than I paid for the 8-D.
New Dry Cells
On my 37.5, I have refrigeration and all that other neat stuff. Had to replace my 2 27s and the 24 this season. I have a client with a Battery Store. We talked and talked about power versus weight, etc. He recommended I look at a new dry cell battery that is out for starting purposes and is coming out for deep cycle. I forget the name of it at the moment, but I suspect they are easy to find...in the right places. Pound for Pound, amp for amp, I decided on four of these new dry cells in deep cycle mode. 3 for the house and one for the starter. They are 38 pounds a piece and have the same total amp hours as a 4D. But, they can be submerged in water, don't have any liquid, and are smaller than a 24. They are arranged in such a way that cabling is easier, etc. Supposedly, these new type batteries can even be put in the same compartment as the CNG bottles...but!!!! At any rate, four batteries lighter in weight, powerful, and seemingly much safer and reliable. They are a little more expensive, but, I suspect worth the added cost in the long term. See ya, Steve
On my 37.5, I have refrigeration and all that other neat stuff. Had to replace my 2 27s and the 24 this season. I have a client with a Battery Store. We talked and talked about power versus weight, etc. He recommended I look at a new dry cell battery that is out for starting purposes and is coming out for deep cycle. I forget the name of it at the moment, but I suspect they are easy to find...in the right places. Pound for Pound, amp for amp, I decided on four of these new dry cells in deep cycle mode. 3 for the house and one for the starter. They are 38 pounds a piece and have the same total amp hours as a 4D. But, they can be submerged in water, don't have any liquid, and are smaller than a 24. They are arranged in such a way that cabling is easier, etc. Supposedly, these new type batteries can even be put in the same compartment as the CNG bottles...but!!!! At any rate, four batteries lighter in weight, powerful, and seemingly much safer and reliable. They are a little more expensive, but, I suspect worth the added cost in the long term. See ya, Steve
Group 24 = Golf Cart
The group 24 has the same footprint as the golf cart; however, the golfcart is taller by a couple inches. So, if you have the vertical clearance I'd highly recommend the 'carts'. The extra height allows for sludge underneath the plates which is one of the causes for plates shorting out.
The group 24 has the same footprint as the golf cart; however, the golfcart is taller by a couple inches. So, if you have the vertical clearance I'd highly recommend the 'carts'. The extra height allows for sludge underneath the plates which is one of the causes for plates shorting out.
Advantages of 6 Volt batteries
1. Easier to remove when you have to, eventually. 2. Cheaper to replace one 6 volt with a bad cell than a 12 volt with a bad cell. MC
1. Easier to remove when you have to, eventually. 2. Cheaper to replace one 6 volt with a bad cell than a 12 volt with a bad cell. MC
2 6V deep cycle..
..bought at West Marine ,is what I put on my 29.5 5 years ago for house batteries , and they are still fine . Anyway ,don't go for less than REAL deep-cycle ones (they have life expentancy of around 1000 cycle or more),there are some with 500-600 cycles advertized as such , but they won't last THAT long , and the deference in price is negligeable.
..bought at West Marine ,is what I put on my 29.5 5 years ago for house batteries , and they are still fine . Anyway ,don't go for less than REAL deep-cycle ones (they have life expentancy of around 1000 cycle or more),there are some with 500-600 cycles advertized as such , but they won't last THAT long , and the deference in price is negligeable.
Where do you put all of these batteries
What seems to be missing in these articles is the fact that with refrigeration, autpilot, lights, stereo, instruments, fans, autopilots, etc., two golf cart batteries won't even come close to satisfying the demand over a 24 hour period. If the amp hour demand is 180 hours, then the battery bank should be 540 hours or greater. Where are you going to put those four to six golf cart batteries? Has any 340 owner installed batteries in a location other than the aft, starboard cockpit locker?
What seems to be missing in these articles is the fact that with refrigeration, autpilot, lights, stereo, instruments, fans, autopilots, etc., two golf cart batteries won't even come close to satisfying the demand over a 24 hour period. If the amp hour demand is 180 hours, then the battery bank should be 540 hours or greater. Where are you going to put those four to six golf cart batteries? Has any 340 owner installed batteries in a location other than the aft, starboard cockpit locker?
You're Catching On!!
Finding a place to put all the batteries required is difficult on most models, especially without taking away from valuable storage space. Also, if one has refrigeration I feel the comfortable minimum is four golf carts and preferably a starting battery. This allows for sufficient time between charges without draining the batteries too much. A drained battery will have low voltage which is harder on motors. On our '88 H-35 there is barely room under the aft cabin berth for the golf carts but they fit with battery boxes and covers and still have a bit of room over the battery posts. Took quite a while of trial and error to come up with the solution but it was worth it. Supplemental charging capability such as solar and wind really prolongs times between having to run the engine.
Finding a place to put all the batteries required is difficult on most models, especially without taking away from valuable storage space. Also, if one has refrigeration I feel the comfortable minimum is four golf carts and preferably a starting battery. This allows for sufficient time between charges without draining the batteries too much. A drained battery will have low voltage which is harder on motors. On our '88 H-35 there is barely room under the aft cabin berth for the golf carts but they fit with battery boxes and covers and still have a bit of room over the battery posts. Took quite a while of trial and error to come up with the solution but it was worth it. Supplemental charging capability such as solar and wind really prolongs times between having to run the engine.
Thus the Dry Cells???
The Dry Cells I mentioned earlier are smaller, dry, sealed, and really don't need a battery box. Semms hi tech is solving some of these weight versus power problems fairly well. Because they can be submerged, etc., on my 37.5, I have about 10 inches under the sole that I think I can put a shelf in and set the batteries on that shelf. My bilge is shaped in such a way that the actual sump is about 10 more inches farther down. In the 340, you might have enough space there to line them up or something. I can get two side by side and two deep just behind the mast. Suggest you visit a battery retailer such as Battery Warehouse and talk to them. Good Luck, Steve
The Dry Cells I mentioned earlier are smaller, dry, sealed, and really don't need a battery box. Semms hi tech is solving some of these weight versus power problems fairly well. Because they can be submerged, etc., on my 37.5, I have about 10 inches under the sole that I think I can put a shelf in and set the batteries on that shelf. My bilge is shaped in such a way that the actual sump is about 10 more inches farther down. In the 340, you might have enough space there to line them up or something. I can get two side by side and two deep just behind the mast. Suggest you visit a battery retailer such as Battery Warehouse and talk to them. Good Luck, Steve
Battery config
We have 2 group 27 batteries for the house and 1 group 24 for starting. The starting batterie has always been sufficient. The house batteries are not really sufficient based on our demand we have all of the electronic stuff pluss 12 volt refrigeration. We find our selves running the fidg on a cycle and supplementing it with ice so that we don't have to run the engine as much. It has not been a real pain but isn't ideal either. I'm considering a small portable Honda generator to charge the batteries at anchor and run the frig during the hottest times of the day but am wondering about noise levels and fuel storage... Scott
We have 2 group 27 batteries for the house and 1 group 24 for starting. The starting batterie has always been sufficient. The house batteries are not really sufficient based on our demand we have all of the electronic stuff pluss 12 volt refrigeration. We find our selves running the fidg on a cycle and supplementing it with ice so that we don't have to run the engine as much. It has not been a real pain but isn't ideal either. I'm considering a small portable Honda generator to charge the batteries at anchor and run the frig during the hottest times of the day but am wondering about noise levels and fuel storage... Scott
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