I am "slightly stoopid" when it comes to charging systems, and I have a question/problem with my batteries. I have two 8D house batteries labeled 1&2. Also a dedicated start battery. Boat is a 1998 Hunter 376. The alternator is OEM, charger is Heart invertor/charger 2000W. All batteries are wet cell. My start battery is ofter low on water and recently the battery box was wet under the battery. About 3 yrs ago while motoring back from Ensenada the start battery got really hot (I could smell it), and it was boiling away, so I unhooked it. I am assuming the existing start battery is having the same issue. My question is: Is having the 2 larger 8D's hooked up to the same charging system messing things up? The 8D's are about 2 yrs old and still each charge up to almost 13V. I am wondering if the charging system (both Alt & Heart) continue to charge the "full" start battery while charging the larger 8D's? Thanks. Bob F
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Had similar problem Bob
We have a similar setup - 450amp house bank and one dedicated start battery, both banks being connected like your's only when the engine is running or charger is on such that the isolator kicks on and allow charging of all batteries. Therein lies the problem. The start battery is usually never discharged significantly while the house bank is periodically discharged such that when the alt or charger is on and sees the house bank is low, starts pumping juice into all the batteries thereby cooking the start battery. This also resulted in the water boiling out of the start battery which is what you found under it. There are a number of ways with which you can minimize or eliminate the problem, the easiest (read cheapest) is to consistently monitor the water level of the start battery to ensure it stays full and therefore won't cook. Although not a complete fix, replacing the Heart charger with a multi-bank charger will prevent the problem while on shore power but you could still replicate the problem when motoring a long time again requiring careful watch of the start battery. Another option (my favorite) is to install a switch on the start battery and simply disconnect it while on shore power (still have problem underway). Hope that gives you some ideas Don
We have a similar setup - 450amp house bank and one dedicated start battery, both banks being connected like your's only when the engine is running or charger is on such that the isolator kicks on and allow charging of all batteries. Therein lies the problem. The start battery is usually never discharged significantly while the house bank is periodically discharged such that when the alt or charger is on and sees the house bank is low, starts pumping juice into all the batteries thereby cooking the start battery. This also resulted in the water boiling out of the start battery which is what you found under it. There are a number of ways with which you can minimize or eliminate the problem, the easiest (read cheapest) is to consistently monitor the water level of the start battery to ensure it stays full and therefore won't cook. Although not a complete fix, replacing the Heart charger with a multi-bank charger will prevent the problem while on shore power but you could still replicate the problem when motoring a long time again requiring careful watch of the start battery. Another option (my favorite) is to install a switch on the start battery and simply disconnect it while on shore power (still have problem underway). Hope that gives you some ideas Don
Bob..Your heart inverter/charger has an echo
output which shoud be used to keep the start battery up. As Don said the start battery never goes completely low so the echo (it works like a trickle charger) does the job. If you are filling the battery and it starts to cook off when motoring the regulator, either internal in the alternator, or external depending on how Hunter rigged you boat, is the most likely culprit. If you go to the Heart web site you can down load all the info and manual for your charger.
output which shoud be used to keep the start battery up. As Don said the start battery never goes completely low so the echo (it works like a trickle charger) does the job. If you are filling the battery and it starts to cook off when motoring the regulator, either internal in the alternator, or external depending on how Hunter rigged you boat, is the most likely culprit. If you go to the Heart web site you can down load all the info and manual for your charger.
Need to trace wiring
and understand the system. While many boats are "typically" connected electrically, you have some "enhancements," notably the inverter charger. Those well made chargers generally have only one output, a big #2/0 set of wires which should go to positive and negative distribution posts before they go to the house battery bank. The starting bank is usually charged with a combiner or echo charger, the echo charger being superior in that it does not overcharge the start bank; the combiner will overcharge the start bank unless disconnected. Your OEM alternator will most likely do little damage with its internal regulator and tapering charge regimen. Given the size and quality and value of your investment, it may be wise to "wise-up" and stop being "stoopid" and learn about the electrical system. A $50 investment in Calder's Boatowner's Manual could save you a lot of grief and improve your electrical system. I say this because I believe that it is unwise for any of us to provide you with specific guidance because we do not know, personally, just how your boat is wired, and all we can do is provide generalities and suggestions based on what have done with our own boats. Who knows whether you have isolators, or a combiner, or just what switches you have and use. We don't know if your alternator is wired to the C post of your 1-2-B switch or to a PDP. Your problem is, most likely, NOT your batteries or your chargers (I/C or alternator) but rather the way the SYSTEM is wired. A little bit of wiring, appropriate switching or relays, and your personal understanding of the way YOUR boat is assembled is what you need to undertake. While Don is right about the start bank charging, I believe that there is no need to replace your Heart I/C, it's a great unit if wired properly. If the switch Don suggests works for shorepower, there's no reason not to make it work while underway, too. This is a perfect example of why you should learn what you have, since this subject is way too complicated to answer in this type of board. You can also read up quite a bit with West Marine's Advisors in their catalogs and on the web, and read about alternators, chargers, etc. on any Catalina Association website. An example from our C34 'site is: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-electrical-system-upgrade-2.html It discusses the entire system and includes a wiring diagram. You would be well advised to start tracing and drawing our your own wiring for a good understanding of how your boat is currently hooked up and what changes may need to be made to make it work without overcharging your start bank. Additionally, from an article I wrote in the Nov. 2006 Catalina Mainsheet magazine: Alternator Output: The older boats with only one 1-2-B switches are usually factory wired with the alternator output to the “C” post of the switch. This means that the switch was actually used for two purposes: (1) which battery bank(s) the alternator charge goes to when the engine is running; (2) which bank is chosen for use for DC power. We changed that. We moved the original alternator output FROM the “C” TO the “2” post (our house bank) of the switch. The Combiner charges the start bank without having to use the 1-2-B switch for selecting alternator charging output ONLY because we moved that connection. {Before we upgraded our alternator and ran a new wire from the alternator to the PDP:::] The revised alternator charging path was from the alternator through the Auto-Mac to the “2” switch post to the house bank, using the #4 OEM red wiring. IMPORTANT NOTE: You cannot simply move the alternator output from the “C” to the “2” post without a Combiner or Echo Charger type relay equipment because the start bank would not get charged. Another way to put this is: If your alternator output is wired to the C post of the 1-2-B switch, and you do not have a combiner (or equivalent), then you have to start the engine with the switch on B (ALL) because this would be the only way to charge both of your banks from the alternator. As I said, it's complicated and this just begins to touch on the subject. Your boat, your choices.
and understand the system. While many boats are "typically" connected electrically, you have some "enhancements," notably the inverter charger. Those well made chargers generally have only one output, a big #2/0 set of wires which should go to positive and negative distribution posts before they go to the house battery bank. The starting bank is usually charged with a combiner or echo charger, the echo charger being superior in that it does not overcharge the start bank; the combiner will overcharge the start bank unless disconnected. Your OEM alternator will most likely do little damage with its internal regulator and tapering charge regimen. Given the size and quality and value of your investment, it may be wise to "wise-up" and stop being "stoopid" and learn about the electrical system. A $50 investment in Calder's Boatowner's Manual could save you a lot of grief and improve your electrical system. I say this because I believe that it is unwise for any of us to provide you with specific guidance because we do not know, personally, just how your boat is wired, and all we can do is provide generalities and suggestions based on what have done with our own boats. Who knows whether you have isolators, or a combiner, or just what switches you have and use. We don't know if your alternator is wired to the C post of your 1-2-B switch or to a PDP. Your problem is, most likely, NOT your batteries or your chargers (I/C or alternator) but rather the way the SYSTEM is wired. A little bit of wiring, appropriate switching or relays, and your personal understanding of the way YOUR boat is assembled is what you need to undertake. While Don is right about the start bank charging, I believe that there is no need to replace your Heart I/C, it's a great unit if wired properly. If the switch Don suggests works for shorepower, there's no reason not to make it work while underway, too. This is a perfect example of why you should learn what you have, since this subject is way too complicated to answer in this type of board. You can also read up quite a bit with West Marine's Advisors in their catalogs and on the web, and read about alternators, chargers, etc. on any Catalina Association website. An example from our C34 'site is: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-electrical-system-upgrade-2.html It discusses the entire system and includes a wiring diagram. You would be well advised to start tracing and drawing our your own wiring for a good understanding of how your boat is currently hooked up and what changes may need to be made to make it work without overcharging your start bank. Additionally, from an article I wrote in the Nov. 2006 Catalina Mainsheet magazine: Alternator Output: The older boats with only one 1-2-B switches are usually factory wired with the alternator output to the “C” post of the switch. This means that the switch was actually used for two purposes: (1) which battery bank(s) the alternator charge goes to when the engine is running; (2) which bank is chosen for use for DC power. We changed that. We moved the original alternator output FROM the “C” TO the “2” post (our house bank) of the switch. The Combiner charges the start bank without having to use the 1-2-B switch for selecting alternator charging output ONLY because we moved that connection. {Before we upgraded our alternator and ran a new wire from the alternator to the PDP:::] The revised alternator charging path was from the alternator through the Auto-Mac to the “2” switch post to the house bank, using the #4 OEM red wiring. IMPORTANT NOTE: You cannot simply move the alternator output from the “C” to the “2” post without a Combiner or Echo Charger type relay equipment because the start bank would not get charged. Another way to put this is: If your alternator output is wired to the C post of the 1-2-B switch, and you do not have a combiner (or equivalent), then you have to start the engine with the switch on B (ALL) because this would be the only way to charge both of your banks from the alternator. As I said, it's complicated and this just begins to touch on the subject. Your boat, your choices.
Dick, 1998 Heart I/Cs did NOT have
echo chargers. I have one, I know, so unless his was put in later, he didn't have one. I installed a Freedom 15 on ours in 1998. I also installed the same Freedom 15 two years later in a friend's boat, and they DID have them. That's what I'm suggesting, we just don't know.
echo chargers. I have one, I know, so unless his was put in later, he didn't have one. I installed a Freedom 15 on ours in 1998. I also installed the same Freedom 15 two years later in a friend's boat, and they DID have them. That's what I'm suggesting, we just don't know.
Hi Bob, according to an Interstate battery...
guy, when one of our 8Ds boiled dry, he told me that battery was shot and needed to be replaced. That fixed the problem in my case. I would suspect (emphasis on suspect) your starter battery problem symptom means that one or more of the cells are shorting, which causes the battery to overheat and boil over. If your battery is at least five years old, as were ours, that is likely the culprit. Terry
guy, when one of our 8Ds boiled dry, he told me that battery was shot and needed to be replaced. That fixed the problem in my case. I would suspect (emphasis on suspect) your starter battery problem symptom means that one or more of the cells are shorting, which causes the battery to overheat and boil over. If your battery is at least five years old, as were ours, that is likely the culprit. Terry
My 376
My 376 (1996) came with a battery combiner. It was wired so that it only came in when the engine ignition switch was ON. Thus both batteries were charged by the alternator. Being an automotive type of regulator, I doubt this would boil the start battery dry. This also meant that the start battery did not get any benefit from shore power charging because the ignition switch was OFF. The shore power charger was a dreadful DYTEK ferroresonant charger which, despite the maker's claims, could not be left on constantly. This does have an output for the start battery but this was not connected on my boat - yours might be. However the start battery WAS connected to the solar panel but the house battery was not. There was no regulator in the solar panel supply so, if the boat was left unused for a long time the solar panel could overcharge the start battery. If you had sufficient overcharging that the battery acid boiled over then this indicates a charge rate higher than likely from the solar panel. Something is clearly wrong if the house batteries don't also gas and loose their acid, so I suggest you follow Stu's advice and follow the wires through the boat. Its actually quite easy. Switch off both master switches first though! When I installed a Freedom 10 it had no second output for start battery so I installed a small 12 volt mains power brick from a kids toy. This brings in the combiner when mains power is applied to the boat. I am still on my original 1996 starter battery!
My 376 (1996) came with a battery combiner. It was wired so that it only came in when the engine ignition switch was ON. Thus both batteries were charged by the alternator. Being an automotive type of regulator, I doubt this would boil the start battery dry. This also meant that the start battery did not get any benefit from shore power charging because the ignition switch was OFF. The shore power charger was a dreadful DYTEK ferroresonant charger which, despite the maker's claims, could not be left on constantly. This does have an output for the start battery but this was not connected on my boat - yours might be. However the start battery WAS connected to the solar panel but the house battery was not. There was no regulator in the solar panel supply so, if the boat was left unused for a long time the solar panel could overcharge the start battery. If you had sufficient overcharging that the battery acid boiled over then this indicates a charge rate higher than likely from the solar panel. Something is clearly wrong if the house batteries don't also gas and loose their acid, so I suggest you follow Stu's advice and follow the wires through the boat. Its actually quite easy. Switch off both master switches first though! When I installed a Freedom 10 it had no second output for start battery so I installed a small 12 volt mains power brick from a kids toy. This brings in the combiner when mains power is applied to the boat. I am still on my original 1996 starter battery!
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