I've been revamping my electrical system. New charger (Xantrex Truecharge 20), new alternator/regulator (Balmar 80 Amp with ARS-5H reg), a Balmar Duo Charge to charge the starting battery, Xantrex Link 2000 battery monitor and a thought that I'd do new batteries sometime during the season. I replaced the 1-2-B battery switch with a Blue Sea switch that only has Off-On-Combine positions. This segregates the starting battery from the house bank, it's a 2 pole switch. The Charger/Alternator-Regulator that I've chosen all allow me to freely choose what battery type to use. So, yesterday, the yard informed me that my current batteries (garden variety, dual use (deep cycle/starting), unknown age (they were on board when I bought the boat 2 seasons ago) group 27 flooded) won't hold a charge. They had them on a float charger during the winter for me. So, I need to make my battery decision now before splash time. I'm supposed to be launched next week, so I need to make this decision now. I'm a former EE and I've read Calder, Wing and others as well as a bunch of marketing hype re the various battery types. I feel I pretty well understand the technical aspects of the choices. What I'd really like now is to hear from real users about what they use and recommend. We have many issues which make it hard for us to get away for real cruises, but our use is kinda like this. A lot of day sailing, maybe a couple of 2 or 3 day weekends and, if we're lucky, 1 longer jaunt of a week to 10 days. During these longer cruises we spend most nights at marinas, but on occasion, we do anchor for a day or 2. This is all within Long Island Sound. So, for this kind of use, what works best? Floded deep cycle, Gel or AGM? I'd really like to go with these Energy 1 (formerly Meridian??) batteries (more capacity in the same space), but I can't find a way to actually get them. I'm thinking a group 31 house and a group 24 starting battery. Does that sound like a reasonable setup. I have the boat equipped with a lot of electronics so the load is relatively high. I would really like to do 2 group 31's for the house, but I can't figure out where to put all this. So, I thought I'd start with 1. Let me know what works for you and your experiences. I'd really appreciate the help.
Batteries AGM/Gel/Wet
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this is probably the most discussed topic on the forum and the answers you seek have been thoroughly debated therein.
this is probably the most discussed topic on the forum and the answers you seek have been thoroughly debated therein.
I tried that ... no luck
I tried searching for agm, AGM, gel, Gel. All returned no finds in either the current forum or the archive. So, I guess I'm stupid and don't know how to search. Anyway, what's wrong with a current discussion? Maybe some new light will be shed on a very important topic.
I tried searching for agm, AGM, gel, Gel. All returned no finds in either the current forum or the archive. So, I guess I'm stupid and don't know how to search. Anyway, what's wrong with a current discussion? Maybe some new light will be shed on a very important topic.
Thanks Ross
I really appreciate the response. I'm wrestling with where to put the extra battery. My batteries are located under the port side settee just aft of amidships. There's room for the existing group 27's but I can't quite figure out how to get 2 31's and a 24 in there. I also can't figure out anyplace else to put a starting battery.
I really appreciate the response. I'm wrestling with where to put the extra battery. My batteries are located under the port side settee just aft of amidships. There's room for the existing group 27's but I can't quite figure out how to get 2 31's and a 24 in there. I also can't figure out anyplace else to put a starting battery.
Jump Start
I had two group 27 only for house and starting and a portable jump starter as backup. So go with the two largest group battery and a jump starter. Nick
I had two group 27 only for house and starting and a portable jump starter as backup. So go with the two largest group battery and a jump starter. Nick
My vote would be..
Two 6V golf cart batteries in series for a 225 amp hour house bank and a group 27, 29 or 31 for your starting needs. Bang for the buck golf cart batteries like the Trojan T105 or T125's are the best there is when you compare ah, $$ and longevity. The thicker plates and the slightly taller height mean a longer lasting battery. Unless you are doing serious off shore work where you might get knocked down flooded batteries are fine! Even the 6V batteries Sam's Club sells will work fine. My brother is going on his sixth or seventh season with his 6V Sam's Club batteries and he's left them on board, in Maine and not on a trickle charger, for the last three winters! Most 6V golf cart batteries are between 215 ah and 225 ah in capacity for two of them in series. I've personally been using 6V batteries for the last fifteen years except for my current boat which is a 2005 with two 12v 4D's. If I had kept this boat long enough they would have been changed to 4 6V T105's...
Two 6V golf cart batteries in series for a 225 amp hour house bank and a group 27, 29 or 31 for your starting needs. Bang for the buck golf cart batteries like the Trojan T105 or T125's are the best there is when you compare ah, $$ and longevity. The thicker plates and the slightly taller height mean a longer lasting battery. Unless you are doing serious off shore work where you might get knocked down flooded batteries are fine! Even the 6V batteries Sam's Club sells will work fine. My brother is going on his sixth or seventh season with his 6V Sam's Club batteries and he's left them on board, in Maine and not on a trickle charger, for the last three winters! Most 6V golf cart batteries are between 215 ah and 225 ah in capacity for two of them in series. I've personally been using 6V batteries for the last fifteen years except for my current boat which is a 2005 with two 12v 4D's. If I had kept this boat long enough they would have been changed to 4 6V T105's...
Think charging, not battery size......
If you don't have room for an extra battery, don't sweat it. Put in 2 Group 31s (or a 31 and a 24 or whatever fits), hook them up to your absolutely top-notch charging/regulating/monitoring system, write down 200 amp-hours as a constant in your power equation, then start working on the variables.
Oh, and as seadaddler suggested, go down to WM and spend $70 on one of those stand-alone jump-starters. Now you can 'dip into' your (nominal) starting battery without worry. So now you have 200 amp-hours in your 'bank', and your Link monitor is your most valuable tool. You can draw from either battery with confidence that you KNOW how much power you have left. Here's why that's important: when you run the engine to charge only one of your batteries, you'll only be getting about 25 amps out of your alternator (because that's all the battery will accept most of the time) so putting back 50 amps will take at least 2 hours, but if you've pulled 25 amps out of each of your batteries, you can put back 50 amps in an hour. If you find that you're drawing too much current and have to charge your batteries too often while cruising, then you might think about adding a solar panel to be able to 'put some back' while you're sailing. BTW, Meridian batteries are actually Northstar. Go to www.northstarbattery.com and you can find them, as well as get started trying to find a dealer. As for battery type, you're definitely a candidate for AGMs. Below is a link to a very good discussion on AGM batteries. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
If you don't have room for an extra battery, don't sweat it. Put in 2 Group 31s (or a 31 and a 24 or whatever fits), hook them up to your absolutely top-notch charging/regulating/monitoring system, write down 200 amp-hours as a constant in your power equation, then start working on the variables.
Oh, and as seadaddler suggested, go down to WM and spend $70 on one of those stand-alone jump-starters. Now you can 'dip into' your (nominal) starting battery without worry. So now you have 200 amp-hours in your 'bank', and your Link monitor is your most valuable tool. You can draw from either battery with confidence that you KNOW how much power you have left. Here's why that's important: when you run the engine to charge only one of your batteries, you'll only be getting about 25 amps out of your alternator (because that's all the battery will accept most of the time) so putting back 50 amps will take at least 2 hours, but if you've pulled 25 amps out of each of your batteries, you can put back 50 amps in an hour. If you find that you're drawing too much current and have to charge your batteries too often while cruising, then you might think about adding a solar panel to be able to 'put some back' while you're sailing. BTW, Meridian batteries are actually Northstar. Go to www.northstarbattery.com and you can find them, as well as get started trying to find a dealer. As for battery type, you're definitely a candidate for AGMs. Below is a link to a very good discussion on AGM batteries. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Smitty, seadaddler had the crucial question here
It would help a lot if we knew which boat you had. If you truly cannot find a place for a third battery, then seadaddler has a good suggestion . . . put two of the largets batteries you can fit into your space and carry a jump-start backup. The 6V golf batteries work well in that arrangement as long as you have enough height in your space and you can easily get to the caps for maintenance. If not, 2 Gel or AGM's paralleled will provide a solid combo and be maintenance free. Please research what the battery manufacturer suggests for their charge and float ranges. I found them to differ so to be safe, match them to the Xantrex. As a point of referenece, I recently installed East Penn AGM's in my H280 because of their price and maintenance benefits. We'll see how long they last.
It would help a lot if we knew which boat you had. If you truly cannot find a place for a third battery, then seadaddler has a good suggestion . . . put two of the largets batteries you can fit into your space and carry a jump-start backup. The 6V golf batteries work well in that arrangement as long as you have enough height in your space and you can easily get to the caps for maintenance. If not, 2 Gel or AGM's paralleled will provide a solid combo and be maintenance free. Please research what the battery manufacturer suggests for their charge and float ranges. I found them to differ so to be safe, match them to the Xantrex. As a point of referenece, I recently installed East Penn AGM's in my H280 because of their price and maintenance benefits. We'll see how long they last.
Boat info is often in the owner's profile...
If the name of the poster is a blue hyper-link, you can click on it and open their owner profile page. In this case, I know lots about Smitty, including his Admiral's name, his age, and where he sails, plus his boat is: a 1986 Cal 28-2 Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
If the name of the poster is a blue hyper-link, you can click on it and open their owner profile page.
In this case, I know lots about Smitty, including his Admiral's name, his age, and where he sails, plus his boat is: a 1986 Cal 28-2 Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Doh!! Thanks BobW; didn't think to look.
Smitty, I'd also like to modify my suggestion a bit. With your system, you don't need to parallel the batteries, just install them as individuals and let your system manage their connections, charging and discharging.
Smitty, I'd also like to modify my suggestion a bit. With your system, you don't need to parallel the batteries, just install them as individuals and let your system manage their connections, charging and discharging.
If there's only room for TWO batteries....
I wouldn't suggest a pair of 6v wired in series. If one goes bad, you're dead in the water - plus you'll have to replace both, because they're in the same series bank and you don't want an old and a new battery in that configuration. With room for 3 - which Smitty says he doesn't have - this isn't a problem. With only 2 batteries, designating one as a 'starting battery' just doesn't make sense, especially with a stand-alone 'jump-start' unit, a Link monitor, a Vessel Assist card and sailing in boat-filled Long Island Sound with a VHF radio. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
I wouldn't suggest a pair of 6v wired in series. If one goes bad, you're dead in the water - plus you'll have to replace both, because they're in the same series bank and you don't want an old and a new battery in that configuration. With room for 3 - which Smitty says he doesn't have - this isn't a problem. With only 2 batteries, designating one as a 'starting battery' just doesn't make sense, especially with a stand-alone 'jump-start' unit, a Link monitor, a Vessel Assist card and sailing in boat-filled Long Island Sound with a VHF radio.
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8AGM's work great
My O'day 27 only had room for 2 group 24's wired to a 1 - 2 - both battery switch. I pulled the 2 old flooded cells and replaced them with 2 group 24 AGM's wired in series and wired them to the battery switch on the 2 position for use as the house bank. Then I bought a new battery box at WM and glassed in a level shelf to secure a group 24 flooded starting battery under the port quarter berth wired to the 1 position on the Battery switch for starting. This combo works sooooo much better than the original set up. I start with the battery switch on 1, then after a few minutes I turn it to 2. I've only let the 2 AGM's drain down once and that could have been prevented if I didn't leave cabin lights on accidently when I left for a few hours. When off shore power for a week or more in the Delta, I run the engine for about 2 hours every day. This keeps my electric colman cooler running (this is a power hog) and the stereo on with a couple hours of cabin lights at night, and the anchor light. That was when they were new last season. I will see how it is this season but I don't forsee much difference. I am changing to LED running lights and some cabin lights this season too. Cheers, Dave 'SlipAway' Oday27
My O'day 27 only had room for 2 group 24's wired to a 1 - 2 - both battery switch. I pulled the 2 old flooded cells and replaced them with 2 group 24 AGM's wired in series and wired them to the battery switch on the 2 position for use as the house bank. Then I bought a new battery box at WM and glassed in a level shelf to secure a group 24 flooded starting battery under the port quarter berth wired to the 1 position on the Battery switch for starting. This combo works sooooo much better than the original set up. I start with the battery switch on 1, then after a few minutes I turn it to 2. I've only let the 2 AGM's drain down once and that could have been prevented if I didn't leave cabin lights on accidently when I left for a few hours. When off shore power for a week or more in the Delta, I run the engine for about 2 hours every day. This keeps my electric colman cooler running (this is a power hog) and the stereo on with a couple hours of cabin lights at night, and the anchor light. That was when they were new last season. I will see how it is this season but I don't forsee much difference. I am changing to LED running lights and some cabin lights this season too. Cheers, Dave 'SlipAway' Oday27
What Worked For Me
When I first got my boat I had one group 27 for start and one group 27 for house and 1-2-both switch and did not like keeping track of which was charging what. I put both in parallel with one large house bank and for starting also no separate start battery but had my backup jump starter,never did use. I also run a lot of electronic's and would run down the separate 27's but not the two 27's in parallel. The larger house bank never really went below 50% charge and was great for day sailing,at the day's end back at the dock I would hook up the charger. When out longer on over night I would just recharge when needed,at anchor with engine and at a marina with shore power charging,this worked for me. Nick
When I first got my boat I had one group 27 for start and one group 27 for house and 1-2-both switch and did not like keeping track of which was charging what. I put both in parallel with one large house bank and for starting also no separate start battery but had my backup jump starter,never did use. I also run a lot of electronic's and would run down the separate 27's but not the two 27's in parallel. The larger house bank never really went below 50% charge and was great for day sailing,at the day's end back at the dock I would hook up the charger. When out longer on over night I would just recharge when needed,at anchor with engine and at a marina with shore power charging,this worked for me. Nick
Golf Cart
6volt batteries are the way to go on a larger boat, but if you only have room for 2 batteries why not hook up to size 31 deep cycle in parallel for both starting and house. You can put a switch in line that will shut off current should the batteries drop below a pre-set voltage if you want to be sure that the engine will always start. http://www.dynobattery.com/Spec30HH.pdf
6volt batteries are the way to go on a larger boat, but if you only have room for 2 batteries why not hook up to size 31 deep cycle in parallel for both starting and house. You can put a switch in line that will shut off current should the batteries drop below a pre-set voltage if you want to be sure that the engine will always start. http://www.dynobattery.com/Spec30HH.pdf
Smitty??
What is your daily consumption? This info below may help. If your burning 50ah's a day then a single group 31 is cutting it very, very close and it will not last long with those kinds of deep discharges. If at all possible try and find a separate spot for a dedicated starting battery unless your use is lower than you describe. Here's a list of what some devices consume per hour of operation. DEVICE Amps/Hr 1-CB Receiver 1.00 2-SSB Receiver 1.50 3-SSB Transmit 25.00 4-VHF Receive 1.50 4-VHF Transmit 5.00 5-Car type CD receiver 1.00 6-Refrigeration(typical) 5.00 7-Cabin Light (40W) 3.50 8-Fluorescent Light (26W) 1.80 9-Fluorescent Light (8W) .70 10-Hand Held Spotlight 10.00 11-Spreader Light 8.00 12-Knotmeter 0.30 13-Wind Speed Indicator 0.30 14-Anchor Windlass 80.00 15-Auto Pilot 4.00 16-Bilge Pump 2.50 17-Cabin Fan 1.00 18-Horn 3.00 19-Inverter(Sm. Microwave) 100.00 20-Inverter(Nicad Charger) 1.50 21-Propane Valve 1.00 22-Depth Sounder 0.30 23-Radar 4.00 24-Anchor Light 1.00 25-Masthead/Steaming Light 1.00 26-Running Lights 3.00 27-Strobe Light 0.70 28-Tri-Color Light 2.00 29-Bilge Pump 5.00 30-Fresh Water Pump 5.00 31-Head Pump 18.00 32-Wash Down Pump 10.00
What is your daily consumption? This info below may help. If your burning 50ah's a day then a single group 31 is cutting it very, very close and it will not last long with those kinds of deep discharges. If at all possible try and find a separate spot for a dedicated starting battery unless your use is lower than you describe. Here's a list of what some devices consume per hour of operation. DEVICE Amps/Hr 1-CB Receiver 1.00 2-SSB Receiver 1.50 3-SSB Transmit 25.00 4-VHF Receive 1.50 4-VHF Transmit 5.00 5-Car type CD receiver 1.00 6-Refrigeration(typical) 5.00 7-Cabin Light (40W) 3.50 8-Fluorescent Light (26W) 1.80 9-Fluorescent Light (8W) .70 10-Hand Held Spotlight 10.00 11-Spreader Light 8.00 12-Knotmeter 0.30 13-Wind Speed Indicator 0.30 14-Anchor Windlass 80.00 15-Auto Pilot 4.00 16-Bilge Pump 2.50 17-Cabin Fan 1.00 18-Horn 3.00 19-Inverter(Sm. Microwave) 100.00 20-Inverter(Nicad Charger) 1.50 21-Propane Valve 1.00 22-Depth Sounder 0.30 23-Radar 4.00 24-Anchor Light 1.00 25-Masthead/Steaming Light 1.00 26-Running Lights 3.00 27-Strobe Light 0.70 28-Tri-Color Light 2.00 29-Bilge Pump 5.00 30-Fresh Water Pump 5.00 31-Head Pump 18.00 32-Wash Down Pump 10.00
Thanks for all the responses so far
I don't have the height to use golf cart batteries. There's 2 group 27's in there now and they only have about an inch of vertical clearance. It looks like everyone's group 31 is a slightly different size. Obviously, a group number is sort of a generic term as opposed to a real set of measurements. I'm still looking for a place to put that start battery. Is a group 24 adequate for starting a small diesel? I'd really like to keep the starting battery close to the house bank to ease the wiring chore. Pulling wires (especailly AWG 2) is a real b/*ch on this boat. It seems as though they put the battery wiring in the empty hull and then added all the interior stuff. There's no easy path to anywhere. I wanted to mount a start battery further aft and just run the wiring across the cabin sole, but the Admiral said she didn't think that was such a hot idea. Go figure! A related question: I have prices on Interstate, West Marine and Lifeline AGMs. Are any of these demonstrably better than others? Which would you pick? Lifeline certainly seems like they open the kimono and tell you what to expect. They're a tad pricier than some of the others, but look like they might be worth it. I don't want to waste money on brands, but I don't want to save a couple bucks up front only to have it cost me real money or problems downstream. I did visit the Energy 1 battery site ( www.energy1batteries.com ). I found a dealer in Virginia. He has batteries in stock and can ship. They are really pricey (almost 50% higher than others). However, they do pack a lot of power in a smaller space when compared to 4Ds and 8Ds. When compared to regular group style batteries, they're not all that much smaller for the same capacity. Also, the form factor is strange. They're longer but narrower and in some cases higher than the group 27 or 31 that's nearest to them in capacity. For instance, the 130 AH is ~22" long but only 4.92" wide and ~9" high. So, they won't fit any better than group 31s. When considering the price, I'm not sure they have that much more bang for the buck (at least when replacing group 27/31). Anybody have any other thoughts about this?
I don't have the height to use golf cart batteries. There's 2 group 27's in there now and they only have about an inch of vertical clearance. It looks like everyone's group 31 is a slightly different size. Obviously, a group number is sort of a generic term as opposed to a real set of measurements. I'm still looking for a place to put that start battery. Is a group 24 adequate for starting a small diesel? I'd really like to keep the starting battery close to the house bank to ease the wiring chore. Pulling wires (especailly AWG 2) is a real b/*ch on this boat. It seems as though they put the battery wiring in the empty hull and then added all the interior stuff. There's no easy path to anywhere. I wanted to mount a start battery further aft and just run the wiring across the cabin sole, but the Admiral said she didn't think that was such a hot idea. Go figure! A related question: I have prices on Interstate, West Marine and Lifeline AGMs. Are any of these demonstrably better than others? Which would you pick? Lifeline certainly seems like they open the kimono and tell you what to expect. They're a tad pricier than some of the others, but look like they might be worth it. I don't want to waste money on brands, but I don't want to save a couple bucks up front only to have it cost me real money or problems downstream. I did visit the Energy 1 battery site ( www.energy1batteries.com ). I found a dealer in Virginia. He has batteries in stock and can ship. They are really pricey (almost 50% higher than others). However, they do pack a lot of power in a smaller space when compared to 4Ds and 8Ds. When compared to regular group style batteries, they're not all that much smaller for the same capacity. Also, the form factor is strange. They're longer but narrower and in some cases higher than the group 27 or 31 that's nearest to them in capacity. For instance, the 130 AH is ~22" long but only 4.92" wide and ~9" high. So, they won't fit any better than group 31s. When considering the price, I'm not sure they have that much more bang for the buck (at least when replacing group 27/31). Anybody have any other thoughts about this?
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