Ran accross an interesting concept for battery maintenance. Is any body using a Pluse Tech battery conditioner for your boat's battery system. Here is their marketing material - sounds interesting 12V Solar/AC Marine Conditioner $119.95 MS-12R PulseTech's patented pulse waveform technolgy is proven to reduce and prevent sulfation buildup on lead acid batteries, whether the batteries are in use or in storage. The primary cause of battery failure is the buildup of lead sulfate crystals on the battery plates. Lead sulfate forms as a result of normal battery function, but over time a residue of sulfate will remain on the battery plates and crystallize. This crystallized sulfate is no longer available in the battery electrolyte, and insulates the active battery plate material from the remaining active electrolyte, leading to the eventual 'death' of the battery. With the PulseTech Solargizer, regulated pulses of DC current are fed into the battery, causing sulfate residue to break down and return to the electrolyte solution, boosting battery performance and prolonging functional lifespan. The MS12 battery conditioner is used with the attached solar panel or the included AC adapter for maximum flexibility, on any 12 volt lead acid battery. The MS series Solargizers are constructed with marine-grade components for optimum durability in harsh oceanic conditions.
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Sounds like your average magnetic gasohal
milage, energizer, booster-upper. If you bought two, it would work three times as good. Here's my money, huh, the price went up? Oh, OK.---Yeh, right. These types of things have been out a lot longer than I have.
milage, energizer, booster-upper. If you bought two, it would work three times as good. Here's my money, huh, the price went up? Oh, OK.---Yeh, right. These types of things have been out a lot longer than I have.
As an EE
I would want to see there data for this claim. I don't understand what effect the pulsing would have on the formation of sulfates.
I would want to see there data for this claim. I don't understand what effect the pulsing would have on the formation of sulfates.
Seek and yea shall find
There is a whole sub culture of people that live off alternative energy that claim it does some good. Beware of the lo-power commercial versions though. From the research I've done the high voltage spikes don't have enough current to really work well on the bigger batteries like 4D that have already been severly sulfated. But from what I understand they will keep a battery in good condition staying that way. (ps...I put some homemade ones on my average (Exide) 4D's I'm going on my 5th year with them and most people with my same boat have already replaced their batteries by now...pps....Once a year I still usually drain down and then equalize my batteries though....might be "ju-ju" and it might work...sounds credible and there is some data here) Enjoy the reading Here is a FAQ page http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/faq.htm & a home page for some home made units (and links at bottom for commercial units) http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm Its pretty wild they even have their own bulletin board discussion and comparing devices and results http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/gbook.htm & http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation Here is some scientific stuff/studies results - though it is published by a manufacturer...looks credible http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation2.htm http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation.htm
There is a whole sub culture of people that live off alternative energy that claim it does some good. Beware of the lo-power commercial versions though. From the research I've done the high voltage spikes don't have enough current to really work well on the bigger batteries like 4D that have already been severly sulfated. But from what I understand they will keep a battery in good condition staying that way. (ps...I put some homemade ones on my average (Exide) 4D's I'm going on my 5th year with them and most people with my same boat have already replaced their batteries by now...pps....Once a year I still usually drain down and then equalize my batteries though....might be "ju-ju" and it might work...sounds credible and there is some data here) Enjoy the reading Here is a FAQ page http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/faq.htm & a home page for some home made units (and links at bottom for commercial units) http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm Its pretty wild they even have their own bulletin board discussion and comparing devices and results http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/gbook.htm & http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation Here is some scientific stuff/studies results - though it is published by a manufacturer...looks credible http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation2.htm http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation.htm
Guidance so far
is helpful. Appreciates the comments so far. Hope to hear from fellow sailors that are using a Pluse Tech product or a product that does the same thing. The local car care guy (Bobby Likas) on the Sat AM radio call in shows really has a good pitch on this PT product. Their (PT) tech rep was on last weekend and stated that the US Gov is using this PT unit to keep the missile batteries up to specs. Went from a rejection rate of 74% to a sustained relability rate of 94% In any case thanks for the comments so far- hope to hear from actual boat users. RD
is helpful. Appreciates the comments so far. Hope to hear from fellow sailors that are using a Pluse Tech product or a product that does the same thing. The local car care guy (Bobby Likas) on the Sat AM radio call in shows really has a good pitch on this PT product. Their (PT) tech rep was on last weekend and stated that the US Gov is using this PT unit to keep the missile batteries up to specs. Went from a rejection rate of 74% to a sustained relability rate of 94% In any case thanks for the comments so far- hope to hear from actual boat users. RD
sounds like snake oil to me
If you apply a voltage to a plate it ionises molecules. The ions then migrate to the opposite charge. It takes time. Sure electricity travels at near the speed of light. But ions in solution are slow more like centimeters per hour or less. I would attack their first assertion that there is a magnetic frequency at which crystals dissolve. Further at high frequencies we are talking radio waves?? Can you even generate radio waves in solution??? If so why doesn't the navy use it instead of sonar??? Yes I'm Thomas and a doubting Thomas.
If you apply a voltage to a plate it ionises molecules. The ions then migrate to the opposite charge. It takes time. Sure electricity travels at near the speed of light. But ions in solution are slow more like centimeters per hour or less. I would attack their first assertion that there is a magnetic frequency at which crystals dissolve. Further at high frequencies we are talking radio waves?? Can you even generate radio waves in solution??? If so why doesn't the navy use it instead of sonar??? Yes I'm Thomas and a doubting Thomas.
How about a sonic desulfator???
Jack Rabbit Marine, who are fairly widely respected, advertises a "sonic" desulfator, which allegedly vibrates the sulfates off the battery plates. Also sounds a little suspicious - I don't see how you would couple enough acoustic energy through the battery wall to do any good. See the related link - the device is called the De-sulfator
Jack Rabbit Marine, who are fairly widely respected, advertises a "sonic" desulfator, which allegedly vibrates the sulfates off the battery plates. Also sounds a little suspicious - I don't see how you would couple enough acoustic energy through the battery wall to do any good. See the related link - the device is called the De-sulfator
Tom from mobile, go to the links and read
what they say. They answer you questions there. I didn't see where it says there is a "magnetic" frequency. They do talk about a resonant frequency though. Many things get shook up at its resonant frequency , just look at the Tacoma Washington (?) bridge. This site says that it generates a 3.26 MHz frequency, coupled with a very fast rise time and a high amplitude pulse http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation2.htm. The same general pulse is defined by other websites. It might be snake oil, but then I guess applying overvoltage for a period of time to break down sulfates while equalizing a battery is too. ps...you can absolutely generate radio waves in solution, how do you think we can comunicate with submarines. The question is at what frequencies and at what distances due to loss of signal over distances
what they say. They answer you questions there. I didn't see where it says there is a "magnetic" frequency. They do talk about a resonant frequency though. Many things get shook up at its resonant frequency , just look at the Tacoma Washington (?) bridge. This site says that it generates a 3.26 MHz frequency, coupled with a very fast rise time and a high amplitude pulse http://www.vdcelectronics.com/desulphation2.htm. The same general pulse is defined by other websites. It might be snake oil, but then I guess applying overvoltage for a period of time to break down sulfates while equalizing a battery is too. ps...you can absolutely generate radio waves in solution, how do you think we can comunicate with submarines. The question is at what frequencies and at what distances due to loss of signal over distances
Derek these are all similar devices
to the ones originally posted. You don't "acoustic energy through the battery wall" . You apply the electrical pulses through the Positive and Negative terminals
to the ones originally posted. You don't "acoustic energy through the battery wall" . You apply the electrical pulses through the Positive and Negative terminals
Guys, we can talk physics all day.
All transmission of energy is done in the radio spectrum. Yes, even light. Moving up to a high wave form, we get to microwaves. Microwaves heat our food. They keep us safe at sea (radar). And avoiding them brought down the Soviet Union. (Stealth)
The point is, energy is not a mystery or black science. But to plug something into a outlet with a very small investment of energy, to do a big job (sulfation removal) is, well, BS. Removing sulfation, or better still, preventing it, is a very good thing. Our batteries last longer. When that 'stuff' on our cell plates falls off, (again, a good thing) through proper maintenance, like charging and equalization, it falls to the bottom of the battery. When it builds up there and reaches the cell plates, it's all over. The cell shorts and dies. I've heard of people turning their batteries over and rinsing out the cells and somehow removing the crud in the bottom, but I wouldn't want to try. Reason? Golf Cart batteries. Cheap, replace 'em! But this is only what I have learned in my lifetime of hotrodding and boating. I--COULD--BE--WRONG!!!
All transmission of energy is done in the radio spectrum. Yes, even light. Moving up to a high wave form, we get to microwaves. Microwaves heat our food. They keep us safe at sea (radar). And avoiding them brought down the Soviet Union. (Stealth)
The point is, energy is not a mystery or black science. But to plug something into a outlet with a very small investment of energy, to do a big job (sulfation removal) is, well, BS. Removing sulfation, or better still, preventing it, is a very good thing. Our batteries last longer. When that 'stuff' on our cell plates falls off, (again, a good thing) through proper maintenance, like charging and equalization, it falls to the bottom of the battery. When it builds up there and reaches the cell plates, it's all over. The cell shorts and dies. I've heard of people turning their batteries over and rinsing out the cells and somehow removing the crud in the bottom, but I wouldn't want to try. Reason? Golf Cart batteries. Cheap, replace 'em! But this is only what I have learned in my lifetime of hotrodding and boating. I--COULD--BE--WRONG!!!Radio waves don't transmit in saltwater
As far as I know a submarine has to surface or at least use a float to get an antenna above water to communicate. There may be some sonic communication at least it's possible. Sulfates are what drives a battery and within reason are turned back into sulfuric acid during charging. Basically lead oxide and lead exchange electrons and in the process become lead sulfate. When all of the sulfuric acid or lead are used up the battery is dead. Some of the sulfate may sink to the bottom and not be converted into sulfuric acid during the recharge. As Fred said once it accumulates to a certain point the battery is useless. Keeping the battery charged and maybe a little overcharged slows this process. The most important thing besides keeping batteries charged is to fill them with pure water as needed. By pure I mean distilled or deionised as calcium and other metal ions form precipitates. In tap water there is often chlorides ,iron ,magnesium,calcium,phosphates and other stuff that ruin batteries.
As far as I know a submarine has to surface or at least use a float to get an antenna above water to communicate. There may be some sonic communication at least it's possible. Sulfates are what drives a battery and within reason are turned back into sulfuric acid during charging. Basically lead oxide and lead exchange electrons and in the process become lead sulfate. When all of the sulfuric acid or lead are used up the battery is dead. Some of the sulfate may sink to the bottom and not be converted into sulfuric acid during the recharge. As Fred said once it accumulates to a certain point the battery is useless. Keeping the battery charged and maybe a little overcharged slows this process. The most important thing besides keeping batteries charged is to fill them with pure water as needed. By pure I mean distilled or deionised as calcium and other metal ions form precipitates. In tap water there is often chlorides ,iron ,magnesium,calcium,phosphates and other stuff that ruin batteries.
Tom from mobile, subs need not surface
Unless my profs were lying to me when I took Underwater Acoustics class my senior year of college for a EE. Here are some links. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/submarine.htm http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/acoustics.htm http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_acous/uw_acous.htm http://oceanlink.island.net/oinfo/acoustics/acoustics.html As for battery chemistry you are all exactly correct. The question remains that a sulfated battery tends to "hardened" lead. Hardened lead prevents a battery from "living up" to its potential. The "softer more porous" the lead the more it can interact with the battery solution and generate electricity. Please read the disclaimers that most of these sites post. "Note: Not every battery is a candidate for re-conditioning due to mechanical damage, due to vibration or contamination, which has caused its cells to be "shorted". Please read ALL of the sites information. I think it will have reasonable answers to your questions. And I know they specifically address the issues you have brought up.
Unless my profs were lying to me when I took Underwater Acoustics class my senior year of college for a EE. Here are some links. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/submarine.htm http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/acoustics.htm http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_acous/uw_acous.htm http://oceanlink.island.net/oinfo/acoustics/acoustics.html As for battery chemistry you are all exactly correct. The question remains that a sulfated battery tends to "hardened" lead. Hardened lead prevents a battery from "living up" to its potential. The "softer more porous" the lead the more it can interact with the battery solution and generate electricity. Please read the disclaimers that most of these sites post. "Note: Not every battery is a candidate for re-conditioning due to mechanical damage, due to vibration or contamination, which has caused its cells to be "shorted". Please read ALL of the sites information. I think it will have reasonable answers to your questions. And I know they specifically address the issues you have brought up.
Tom from mobile
One other correction I'd like to make is that you said " When all of the sulfuric acid or lead are used up the battery is dead. " Yes it can & does happen, but typically most Deep Cycle batteries don't die of "old age" & natural death as you suggest but rather due to sulphation (or loss of water which seems to happen often due to high heat in auto). Check this reference page http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq12.htm
One other correction I'd like to make is that you said " When all of the sulfuric acid or lead are used up the battery is dead. " Yes it can & does happen, but typically most Deep Cycle batteries don't die of "old age" & natural death as you suggest but rather due to sulphation (or loss of water which seems to happen often due to high heat in auto). Check this reference page http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq12.htm
Tom S. yes some frequencys do
OK some special long wave length radio waves will go through water!!! But for normal radio communication submarines must surface. And I did mention sound as a possible mode of communication as whales can "talk" to each other for thousands of miles. Please buy a desulphation device and I hope your batteries last forever. Having worked in scientific research for over twenty years has made me want to see the data!!! And very skeptical about unsubstantiated claims. I still don't believe copper bracelets cure arthritis or that sleeping with a virgin will cure aids. Cold fusion was a great idea that didn't work. Worst of all I don't believe that eating at subway will make me lose my extra weight.... Polywater now that was a true gem in the journal of irreproducible science. I do believe that there are people who will sell you totally worthless stuff to make a buck. Remember the magnets to increase fuel efficency by realigning the gas molecules for optimal combustion???? Just bolt one onto your fuel line for double the gas mileage. " Fools and their money are soon parted"
OK some special long wave length radio waves will go through water!!! But for normal radio communication submarines must surface. And I did mention sound as a possible mode of communication as whales can "talk" to each other for thousands of miles. Please buy a desulphation device and I hope your batteries last forever. Having worked in scientific research for over twenty years has made me want to see the data!!! And very skeptical about unsubstantiated claims. I still don't believe copper bracelets cure arthritis or that sleeping with a virgin will cure aids. Cold fusion was a great idea that didn't work. Worst of all I don't believe that eating at subway will make me lose my extra weight.... Polywater now that was a true gem in the journal of irreproducible science. I do believe that there are people who will sell you totally worthless stuff to make a buck. Remember the magnets to increase fuel efficency by realigning the gas molecules for optimal combustion???? Just bolt one onto your fuel line for double the gas mileage. " Fools and their money are soon parted"
Fred is right
As far as "rinsing out batteries"... Wouldn't it be nice to have "pop tops" whereby we could simply take the tops off to get at the plates, and also clean out the casings inside? Bet that would really get the batteries "like new" again. Except that there are electrolytes, mostly SULFURIC ACID inside batteries, making things a bit hard to, uh... hold. *grr Spilling even a little of the stuff on carpeting inside a boat or gelcoat outside could make more of a costly mess than simply replacing the battery. And after several years, doesn't your "love" deserve new batteries? Steve
As far as "rinsing out batteries"... Wouldn't it be nice to have "pop tops" whereby we could simply take the tops off to get at the plates, and also clean out the casings inside? Bet that would really get the batteries "like new" again. Except that there are electrolytes, mostly SULFURIC ACID inside batteries, making things a bit hard to, uh... hold. *grr Spilling even a little of the stuff on carpeting inside a boat or gelcoat outside could make more of a costly mess than simply replacing the battery. And after several years, doesn't your "love" deserve new batteries? Steve
Tom, not claiming that they absolutely work
but there is some "credible data". As for radio wave long or short (or any other waves for that matter) they ALL will go through water. The question remains how much they will attenuate over a given distance. The 10 inches these pulse waves have to travel inside a battery, at the frequencies listed (with their harmonics) would not be an issue. The question isn't about whether these high frequency spikes can travel through a battery, because they will. And the question isn't whether it will resonate in "some" way with the batteries lead. The question is whether the efficacy of the resonance will do enough to allow a sulphated battery to turn into one that is more able to absorb battery charging. And I agree, there is a lot of hoax stuff out there, I also am a doubting Thomas and I have a EE degree and 20 years (but not in this area of research) I read through hundreds of pages on this stuff and am still a bit skeptical, but a lot of this data is from regular old people (tech weenie- propeller heads) that don't have a horse in this race and have nothing to gain on whether this stuff works or not, just doing it for their own knowledge. Now I know I linked some commercial sites, but that was more for back up information. You want some data, I have already given a lot. But here is some more beyond what I already posted, but its doesn't help unless you read it all. http://www.canadus.com/home/sulfation/index.htm http://www.canadus.com/home/hfbe/index.htm http://www.canadus.com/home/news/index.htm If that's not good enough how about the Sandia National Labrotaries in New Mexico. http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/SandiaReport.pdf And others http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/braun.pdf http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/MarineElectric.pdf And for a European flair http://www.europulse.com/eng/testimonials/index.shtml Now if ALL these very different groups are making up the data, then you are correct, but unless they are lying there might be something there. PLEASE NOTE: the industrial versions of this is much more powerful than the low-end commercial versions that you see being hawked and probably what is needed for true usefullness. I don't think the cheap low end pulsetech would do much for a big battery bank
but there is some "credible data". As for radio wave long or short (or any other waves for that matter) they ALL will go through water. The question remains how much they will attenuate over a given distance. The 10 inches these pulse waves have to travel inside a battery, at the frequencies listed (with their harmonics) would not be an issue. The question isn't about whether these high frequency spikes can travel through a battery, because they will. And the question isn't whether it will resonate in "some" way with the batteries lead. The question is whether the efficacy of the resonance will do enough to allow a sulphated battery to turn into one that is more able to absorb battery charging. And I agree, there is a lot of hoax stuff out there, I also am a doubting Thomas and I have a EE degree and 20 years (but not in this area of research) I read through hundreds of pages on this stuff and am still a bit skeptical, but a lot of this data is from regular old people (tech weenie- propeller heads) that don't have a horse in this race and have nothing to gain on whether this stuff works or not, just doing it for their own knowledge. Now I know I linked some commercial sites, but that was more for back up information. You want some data, I have already given a lot. But here is some more beyond what I already posted, but its doesn't help unless you read it all. http://www.canadus.com/home/sulfation/index.htm http://www.canadus.com/home/hfbe/index.htm http://www.canadus.com/home/news/index.htm If that's not good enough how about the Sandia National Labrotaries in New Mexico. http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/SandiaReport.pdf And others http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/braun.pdf http://www.innovativeenergy.com/pdf/MarineElectric.pdf And for a European flair http://www.europulse.com/eng/testimonials/index.shtml Now if ALL these very different groups are making up the data, then you are correct, but unless they are lying there might be something there. PLEASE NOTE: the industrial versions of this is much more powerful than the low-end commercial versions that you see being hawked and probably what is needed for true usefullness. I don't think the cheap low end pulsetech would do much for a big battery bank
Testimonials is not data
A true experiment would be to have black boxes one a real pulse generator the other just empty . The users don't know what they have and then compare results. Placebo effect is real. In biomedical research almost 50% of results can be placebo. Someone who cares enough to invest money in their batteries will take better care of them. So you can't really compare them to the average joe who doesn't think about his batteries until the lights go out. I had a neighbor who believed in Carter's little Liver Pills. They helped her a lot. It finally came out that they were just sugar. As far as this gizmo is concerned I don't know if it works or not. The science sounds weak to me. I won't buy one. But my brother is a physics major and a friend is an electrical engineer. I'll ask them. Of course even experts can be wrong. The cold fusion experiments at Utah State were first thought to be great science. But no one could reproduce the results and they became a joke and ruined their careers. I am sure if these gadgets really work they will soon become standard equipment. There is sometimes a fine line between being open minded to new ideas and being gullible.
A true experiment would be to have black boxes one a real pulse generator the other just empty . The users don't know what they have and then compare results. Placebo effect is real. In biomedical research almost 50% of results can be placebo. Someone who cares enough to invest money in their batteries will take better care of them. So you can't really compare them to the average joe who doesn't think about his batteries until the lights go out. I had a neighbor who believed in Carter's little Liver Pills. They helped her a lot. It finally came out that they were just sugar. As far as this gizmo is concerned I don't know if it works or not. The science sounds weak to me. I won't buy one. But my brother is a physics major and a friend is an electrical engineer. I'll ask them. Of course even experts can be wrong. The cold fusion experiments at Utah State were first thought to be great science. But no one could reproduce the results and they became a joke and ruined their careers. I am sure if these gadgets really work they will soon become standard equipment. There is sometimes a fine line between being open minded to new ideas and being gullible.
WOW!
There are many good points here. Submarines communicate underwater through the "E.L.F." system. ELF is Extra Low Frequency. The lower the frequency the longer the distance through water, compensting for density difference of water thermals. Now, batteries. It is a relatively new science or at least this aplication. Long term use will tell the tale. There has been many lab tests saying it works, however you have to look at how it was tested as compaired to how you are going to use it and in what conditions. Something else to keep in mind is that energy waves at a frequency may cause cracking of plates at certain frequencies. As the batteries get older the lead, for lack of a better term , hardens. This makes them more susceptible to cracking. I personally use the draw down and charge method along with checking the specific gravity of the acid to tell my battery condition. My batteries generally last 5-7 years.
There are many good points here. Submarines communicate underwater through the "E.L.F." system. ELF is Extra Low Frequency. The lower the frequency the longer the distance through water, compensting for density difference of water thermals. Now, batteries. It is a relatively new science or at least this aplication. Long term use will tell the tale. There has been many lab tests saying it works, however you have to look at how it was tested as compaired to how you are going to use it and in what conditions. Something else to keep in mind is that energy waves at a frequency may cause cracking of plates at certain frequencies. As the batteries get older the lead, for lack of a better term , hardens. This makes them more susceptible to cracking. I personally use the draw down and charge method along with checking the specific gravity of the acid to tell my battery condition. My batteries generally last 5-7 years.
Hey Gerry Our Boats Are related......sorta
Your boat Moonrise has to happen before my boat MoonShadow can exist!!! Cool
Your boat Moonrise has to happen before my boat MoonShadow can exist!!! Cool
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