My mainsail has 4 battens, the top batten is full length. I believe these battens are original to the sail and probably medium stiffness. Is it worth getting different battens for different wind conditions? Will my boat speed and pointing ability increase enough to make it worth while?
Battens
- Thread starter oday630
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I doubt new and/or stiffer battens would make much difference. If your main is old/tired/out of shape, a new main,however, would help a lot.
Actually, adding stiffness to the aft end of full length battens can help. Really, full length battens should always be tapered, IMHO. Hobie cat battens are tapered, for example.
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/06/carbon-fiber-tapered-battens-and-slack.html
It's a bit fiddly, but the cost was trivial and it was WELL worthwhile.
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/06/carbon-fiber-tapered-battens-and-slack.html
It's a bit fiddly, but the cost was trivial and it was WELL worthwhile.
My Nacra uses tapered battens...... ten of them..... stiff at the leech, bendy at the luff. I equipped each batten with a quick adjust style cap....a necessity for serious cat sailors. Beach cats use 'em because there's a HUGE roach to support and no backstay to bend the mast. A very high powered cunningham is what bends the mast, but pre setting the battens to set draft position for the wind and water conditions is done on the beach. A set of new glass covered, foam filled, tapered battens can cost over $300.
So........do you really want to go down that road? I wouldn't.. but what you can do is adjust the tension on your existing battens.... Most mainsails have velcro closures on he batten pockets.... so tension can be increased by simply tightening the velcro....
Try that first...
So........do you really want to go down that road? I wouldn't.. but what you can do is adjust the tension on your existing battens.... Most mainsails have velcro closures on he batten pockets.... so tension can be increased by simply tightening the velcro....
Try that first...
Oday 630 -
This all depends if your present batten pockets are 'adjustable' .... and how SERIOUS you are about 'performance'.
Adjustable batten pockets typically have adjustable VELCRO 'tabs' at the leech end of the batten pocket. This allows one to set varying amounts of compression along the batten length - the more compression - the more 'fullness' of the sails draft; the least amount of batten compression - the flatter the sails draft.
A sailor looking for 'high performance' usually will set up batten compression to the 'days' sea state and wind conditions ... usually MORE batten compression (fuller draft - 'power') for higher waves/chop, Less batten compression for 'flat water' (a flattish less drafted - 'speed shape') .... inspite of how much wind is or isnt blowing, and ignoring the amount of heel, etc.
With adjustable batten pockets one can also adjust for the 'amount of shoulder' (power/speed characteristics developed at the 'top' of a sail) .... more 'shoulder' for when sailing with large crews that can 'hike out', and less 'shoulder' when less aggressive sailing is desired, etc.
Setting up for differing 'twist' due to differing vertical wind gradients (depends on air density, air temperature, relative humidity, etc.) can be easily accomplished by varying the amount of batten compression (from the topmost batten down to the lowest batten), especially with 'long' or 'full' battens.
The proper amount of twist for 12-15kts of wind strength (~11° of twist) is usually already inbuilt to a mainsail by the sailmaker (and depends on the angle that the boom makes with the mast - typically set for 87-89°) but twist can be tweaked to meet slightly varying conditions. This may be 'splitting hairs' but the fleet leaders in serious racing venues usually do this ... hence the evolution of 'air battens' so one can alter the flex characteristics of the battens while 'on the fly' and in concert with adjustable mast bending - especially when using 'full' battens or "2 long + 2 full" set ups.
If the batten pockets arent adjustable, then for 'high performance' one should have several 'sets' of battens of varying stiffness, slightly longer or shorter length (compression characteristics when in the pocket), and varying flex characteristics, to match the present 'days' sailing conditions.
Also, tapered battens dont 'wear out' the forward section of the batten pocket as fast as a non-tapered batten which 'flexes' or creates a 'hard spot' in the sail material at the front end of the batten pocket on 'short' and 'long' battens .... so, in my mind, even 'short' battens should be well tapered to prevent undue wear and premature failure of the front section of the batten pocket and underlying sail material. Different 'tapers' on full battens can also affect exactly where the *point of maximum draft* occurs - important for precise 'helm balance'.
This all depends if your present batten pockets are 'adjustable' .... and how SERIOUS you are about 'performance'.
Adjustable batten pockets typically have adjustable VELCRO 'tabs' at the leech end of the batten pocket. This allows one to set varying amounts of compression along the batten length - the more compression - the more 'fullness' of the sails draft; the least amount of batten compression - the flatter the sails draft.
A sailor looking for 'high performance' usually will set up batten compression to the 'days' sea state and wind conditions ... usually MORE batten compression (fuller draft - 'power') for higher waves/chop, Less batten compression for 'flat water' (a flattish less drafted - 'speed shape') .... inspite of how much wind is or isnt blowing, and ignoring the amount of heel, etc.
With adjustable batten pockets one can also adjust for the 'amount of shoulder' (power/speed characteristics developed at the 'top' of a sail) .... more 'shoulder' for when sailing with large crews that can 'hike out', and less 'shoulder' when less aggressive sailing is desired, etc.
Setting up for differing 'twist' due to differing vertical wind gradients (depends on air density, air temperature, relative humidity, etc.) can be easily accomplished by varying the amount of batten compression (from the topmost batten down to the lowest batten), especially with 'long' or 'full' battens.
The proper amount of twist for 12-15kts of wind strength (~11° of twist) is usually already inbuilt to a mainsail by the sailmaker (and depends on the angle that the boom makes with the mast - typically set for 87-89°) but twist can be tweaked to meet slightly varying conditions. This may be 'splitting hairs' but the fleet leaders in serious racing venues usually do this ... hence the evolution of 'air battens' so one can alter the flex characteristics of the battens while 'on the fly' and in concert with adjustable mast bending - especially when using 'full' battens or "2 long + 2 full" set ups.
If the batten pockets arent adjustable, then for 'high performance' one should have several 'sets' of battens of varying stiffness, slightly longer or shorter length (compression characteristics when in the pocket), and varying flex characteristics, to match the present 'days' sailing conditions.
Also, tapered battens dont 'wear out' the forward section of the batten pocket as fast as a non-tapered batten which 'flexes' or creates a 'hard spot' in the sail material at the front end of the batten pocket on 'short' and 'long' battens .... so, in my mind, even 'short' battens should be well tapered to prevent undue wear and premature failure of the front section of the batten pocket and underlying sail material. Different 'tapers' on full battens can also affect exactly where the *point of maximum draft* occurs - important for precise 'helm balance'.
Well, I do race in a local phrf fleet. I'm usually in the top 3 or 4, but I just can't seem to get that extra little bit that I need to make it to the top. I do have Velcro batten pockets. I thought they just held in the battens but I will adjust them for the next race, New Year's Day!
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
Oday630: Hopefully, your statement regarding not being able to get beyond the top 3 or 4 will lead to a great discussion. Beginners to intermediate cruising sailors, please don't tune this out because you think it's going to be a racing topic. It isn't, because there's no difference between racing trim and cruising trim -- there's only a right way and a wrong way to trim your sails. Dennis Conner told me that in a bar on Shelter Isand at the America Cup races years ago.
Over the many years I been involved with sail trim and especially at sail trim seminars oday630 question has come up many times. What the person asking the question is hoping for is a 2 or 3 sentence magic answer that will allow them to place first in every race. There are so many factors involved that it's difficult to know where to start and I don't have all day to figure out the problem as others are standing around waiting to ask their question. I start with the obvious -- hull condition, age of sails, experience of crew and the skippers sailing experience. You can learn a lot by just listening to sailors answers.
I'm just buying time with the above questions and trying to get a feel for the skipper. Sometimes it's as simple as cleaning the hull and replacing the sails. In 99 cases out of 100 it comes down to SAIL TRIM. A mate can have the cleanest hull and the newest sails but if he can't trim them as well as the skippers in front of him then he's stuck where he is. Same applies if a mate is trying to beat his friend to Catalina Island or just back to the marina. The sailor with the best sail trim wins every time.
If I suspect it's sail trim and since I don't have all day to check his knowledge of all the sail trim controls on the main and jib I keep it simple. I ask that suppose he was closehauled on the final leg in 10 knots of wind -- where would he place the traveler, how much tension would he apply to the boom vang and where would he place his crew. 3 simple questions but you should hear the answers I get. If we get by those 3 questions I move to the jib and ask what it should look like -- the simple answer is it should mirror the mainsail even if the main is all screwed up -- it's important to be consistent!!
If we get beyond those questions and answers, I suggest we meet in the bar later to talk about sail trim and maybe arrange for a sail so I can see first hand what's' going on. On a couple of occassions it apeared to me he was doing everything right. What I then tell them it's beyond my level and you need guys like RichH, Alan, Joe from San Diego, Stu J to solve the problem.
I'm sure some of you listers get the same questions from your dock neighbors and fellow cruisers who who want to get more performance out of their boats. How do you answer their questions?
Over the many years I been involved with sail trim and especially at sail trim seminars oday630 question has come up many times. What the person asking the question is hoping for is a 2 or 3 sentence magic answer that will allow them to place first in every race. There are so many factors involved that it's difficult to know where to start and I don't have all day to figure out the problem as others are standing around waiting to ask their question. I start with the obvious -- hull condition, age of sails, experience of crew and the skippers sailing experience. You can learn a lot by just listening to sailors answers.
I'm just buying time with the above questions and trying to get a feel for the skipper. Sometimes it's as simple as cleaning the hull and replacing the sails. In 99 cases out of 100 it comes down to SAIL TRIM. A mate can have the cleanest hull and the newest sails but if he can't trim them as well as the skippers in front of him then he's stuck where he is. Same applies if a mate is trying to beat his friend to Catalina Island or just back to the marina. The sailor with the best sail trim wins every time.
If I suspect it's sail trim and since I don't have all day to check his knowledge of all the sail trim controls on the main and jib I keep it simple. I ask that suppose he was closehauled on the final leg in 10 knots of wind -- where would he place the traveler, how much tension would he apply to the boom vang and where would he place his crew. 3 simple questions but you should hear the answers I get. If we get by those 3 questions I move to the jib and ask what it should look like -- the simple answer is it should mirror the mainsail even if the main is all screwed up -- it's important to be consistent!!
If we get beyond those questions and answers, I suggest we meet in the bar later to talk about sail trim and maybe arrange for a sail so I can see first hand what's' going on. On a couple of occassions it apeared to me he was doing everything right. What I then tell them it's beyond my level and you need guys like RichH, Alan, Joe from San Diego, Stu J to solve the problem.
I'm sure some of you listers get the same questions from your dock neighbors and fellow cruisers who who want to get more performance out of their boats. How do you answer their questions?
Thanks Don. Not sure how to take that. It was just a simple question about sail trim and how battens could effect it. I was hoping for some advice and insight on how battens can effect SAILTRIM.
oday630: During the winter months it's very difficult to find sail trim questions that I can use that will appeal to especailly begginer to intermedaite sailors. I trawl all the sites (Catalina, Hunter etc) looking for ANYTHING on sail trim but for the past few weeks there has been nothing. I also use email/phone conversations I have with sailors as subjects of interest that will appeal to listers but that dried up too. As a last resort, I have to use a topic such as yours as a springboard to get into the general topic of sail trim by the backdoor.
The problem with your subject was it was over as soon as Joe from San Diego and RichH answered your question (those two guys answer every question COMPLETELY) and I was trying to reopen the subject.
Actually, simple question as the best because they provide the leeway to take the discussion where I want it to go. It's like asking me if I walked to school or took the bus and I answer by telling you what I had for lunch.
Hopefully, you can see where I'm coming from.
The problem with your subject was it was over as soon as Joe from San Diego and RichH answered your question (those two guys answer every question COMPLETELY) and I was trying to reopen the subject.
Actually, simple question as the best because they provide the leeway to take the discussion where I want it to go. It's like asking me if I walked to school or took the bus and I answer by telling you what I had for lunch.
Hopefully, you can see where I'm coming from.
Thanks again! I understand. All you guys seem to be spot on with the answers. And yes, they did answer my question. Thanks for all the help and advice!
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