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Tim Schaaf
General thinking
A barrier coat slows the ingress of water on the molecular level. Since this is always a good idea, it seems to me that it would be much better to put a good barrier coat on the boat when new. This will be much easier than repairing blisters later. Some manufacturers use vinylester resin on the outermost layer or layers of glass, and this seems to be an effective barrier, or at least a more effective barrier than the standard polyester. I do not know if Hunter does this. One thing to be very wary of is to sand the gelcoat on the bottom of a new boat, in order to get better adhesion for bottom paint. This can destroy the resistance of gelcoat to water intrusion. There are other ways of applying the bottom paint. But, if you must sand, then apply a barrier coat. As for the comment of waiting for five years, I can only surmise that Hunter is expecting you, like most boat owners, to have sold your boat, by then. I think if you ask most people whose boats have blisters at what age did the blisters show up, you will find plenty who encountered this problem within the first five years. I certainly did! Good luck.
A barrier coat slows the ingress of water on the molecular level. Since this is always a good idea, it seems to me that it would be much better to put a good barrier coat on the boat when new. This will be much easier than repairing blisters later. Some manufacturers use vinylester resin on the outermost layer or layers of glass, and this seems to be an effective barrier, or at least a more effective barrier than the standard polyester. I do not know if Hunter does this. One thing to be very wary of is to sand the gelcoat on the bottom of a new boat, in order to get better adhesion for bottom paint. This can destroy the resistance of gelcoat to water intrusion. There are other ways of applying the bottom paint. But, if you must sand, then apply a barrier coat. As for the comment of waiting for five years, I can only surmise that Hunter is expecting you, like most boat owners, to have sold your boat, by then. I think if you ask most people whose boats have blisters at what age did the blisters show up, you will find plenty who encountered this problem within the first five years. I certainly did! Good luck.
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Tom
Tim....maybe Hunter is saying wait 5 years
because the boat and blistering still under warantee.....Maybe they are saying why do something until its not covered anymore..........(lol........ then its too late)
because the boat and blistering still under warantee.....Maybe they are saying why do something until its not covered anymore..........(lol........ then its too late)
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Carl and Juliana Dupre
Yes, For A New Boat
Winter greetings from neighbors in Jamestown! We had our 2001 H340 barrier coated. With an absolutely clean and pristine new hull it is easy to do and relatively inexpensive (note the word "relatively"; it's not dirt cheap, but if you can afford a new boat....), certainly WAY easier and less expensive than after bottom paint and water contact. We felt that it was good insurance if done at the factory-new point. Even with modern vinyl ester gel coats, blisters are still a relatively common warranty item. Just search the archives on this site and you will find lots of blister posts. If barrier coating is even remotely in your mind, then the state of a new, clean hull with absolute zero water incursion and no bottom paint to get out of the way is THE time to do it. The actual decision to do it or not is probably a bit like whether or not to reef; if you are even thinking about it, then you probably should do it. At least that was our thought process. On the other hand, if we had purchased a used boat with a history of water exposure and bottom paint on, we probably would not have considered it. BTW, if you do decide to do it, read your owner's manual carefully. Hunter requires notification and documentation of barrier coating to maintain the bottom warranty. Barrier coating requires surface preparation that eats into the gel coat, and will void the warranty without notification and documentation. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
Winter greetings from neighbors in Jamestown! We had our 2001 H340 barrier coated. With an absolutely clean and pristine new hull it is easy to do and relatively inexpensive (note the word "relatively"; it's not dirt cheap, but if you can afford a new boat....), certainly WAY easier and less expensive than after bottom paint and water contact. We felt that it was good insurance if done at the factory-new point. Even with modern vinyl ester gel coats, blisters are still a relatively common warranty item. Just search the archives on this site and you will find lots of blister posts. If barrier coating is even remotely in your mind, then the state of a new, clean hull with absolute zero water incursion and no bottom paint to get out of the way is THE time to do it. The actual decision to do it or not is probably a bit like whether or not to reef; if you are even thinking about it, then you probably should do it. At least that was our thought process. On the other hand, if we had purchased a used boat with a history of water exposure and bottom paint on, we probably would not have considered it. BTW, if you do decide to do it, read your owner's manual carefully. Hunter requires notification and documentation of barrier coating to maintain the bottom warranty. Barrier coating requires surface preparation that eats into the gel coat, and will void the warranty without notification and documentation. Carl and Jule s/v 'Syzygy'
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Beau Jouet
voids warranty
On many new boats the installation of a barrier coat voids the warranty because you are required to presand the bottom. I was specifically told not to by my Catalina dealer. He said he'd love to charge me the grand or two to do it but thought it inprudent to give up the warranty. Regards, Chris
On many new boats the installation of a barrier coat voids the warranty because you are required to presand the bottom. I was specifically told not to by my Catalina dealer. He said he'd love to charge me the grand or two to do it but thought it inprudent to give up the warranty. Regards, Chris
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Tom
Search the archives...Barrier coat is no gaurantee
against blisters.....There are literaly hundreds of posts on the subject...... BTW contrary to popular belief blisters typically are caused from within due to improper layup
against blisters.....There are literaly hundreds of posts on the subject...... BTW contrary to popular belief blisters typically are caused from within due to improper layup
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Frank Sears
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Tom Ehmke
Frank, barrier coat is...
a coating applied to the hull below the waterline to prevent blistering of the hull. As you can see by the range of replies to the barrier coat question, some folks think it works because it prevents osmosis from blistering the hull from the OUTSIDE and others think that blistering has little or nothing to do with the water which contacts the hull on the outside, but is a result of incorrect application of the FRP when the hull was layed up. The product is sold to be a supplement to the gelcoat on the outside of the hull and prevent water from blistering the hull from the outside. If you think that blistering can occur in this manner, use it. If not, don't use a barrier paint, take your chances that if it occurs, it will occur from the inside, and if it does blister, you'll really never know whether it occurred from the inside or the outside. I own an '86 ODay 272 and barrier-coated the hull two years ago. I scraped the old bottom paint off of the hull, sanded carefully, cleaned, resanded carefully, recleaned carefully, (a lot of dirty work!!) then per the instructions on the can(s)applied multiple coats of West Marine Bottom Poxy which is grey in color. I then painted the bottom with two coats of West Marine CPP (black), an ablative type paint, followed by two coats of WMCCP (blue) to finish the bottom painting process. I did that as a result of reading an article in "Good Old Boat" which recommended that a sub-layer of black be used to indicate when to recoat the hull with bottom paint. (When the blue sloughs off and the black shows through, it's time to repaint.) I've had two seasons in the water on Lake Erie and at haul-out this year saw no need to repaint next year. (I couldn't see any black paint.) I did it as a preventive, not because I found blistering and needed to make repairs and reseal the hull. If, as I believe, it works, I have a hull as immune to blistering as current technology permits. The boat was 12 years old when I barrier-coated it. My conclusion was that if blistering had not yet occurred after 12 years as a result of faulty lay-up of the hull, it would occur on the outside if it were to occur at all. My decision was to apply the coating. I'm not getting any younger and wanted to put something permanent into place before bottom work became next to impossible for me. Tom
a coating applied to the hull below the waterline to prevent blistering of the hull. As you can see by the range of replies to the barrier coat question, some folks think it works because it prevents osmosis from blistering the hull from the OUTSIDE and others think that blistering has little or nothing to do with the water which contacts the hull on the outside, but is a result of incorrect application of the FRP when the hull was layed up. The product is sold to be a supplement to the gelcoat on the outside of the hull and prevent water from blistering the hull from the outside. If you think that blistering can occur in this manner, use it. If not, don't use a barrier paint, take your chances that if it occurs, it will occur from the inside, and if it does blister, you'll really never know whether it occurred from the inside or the outside. I own an '86 ODay 272 and barrier-coated the hull two years ago. I scraped the old bottom paint off of the hull, sanded carefully, cleaned, resanded carefully, recleaned carefully, (a lot of dirty work!!) then per the instructions on the can(s)applied multiple coats of West Marine Bottom Poxy which is grey in color. I then painted the bottom with two coats of West Marine CPP (black), an ablative type paint, followed by two coats of WMCCP (blue) to finish the bottom painting process. I did that as a result of reading an article in "Good Old Boat" which recommended that a sub-layer of black be used to indicate when to recoat the hull with bottom paint. (When the blue sloughs off and the black shows through, it's time to repaint.) I've had two seasons in the water on Lake Erie and at haul-out this year saw no need to repaint next year. (I couldn't see any black paint.) I did it as a preventive, not because I found blistering and needed to make repairs and reseal the hull. If, as I believe, it works, I have a hull as immune to blistering as current technology permits. The boat was 12 years old when I barrier-coated it. My conclusion was that if blistering had not yet occurred after 12 years as a result of faulty lay-up of the hull, it would occur on the outside if it were to occur at all. My decision was to apply the coating. I'm not getting any younger and wanted to put something permanent into place before bottom work became next to impossible for me. Tom
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Tim Schaaf
Blistering due to poor layup an oversimplification
Most responsible research DOES credit the process of laying up fiberglass with some responsibility for blistering, it is true. Small deposits of dust or other impurities can be the "seeds". More frequently, it will be a pocket of resin that has not kicked properly or some "dry glass". But, it takes a hull saturated with moisture for these things to combine with water to form the liquid that makes blisters. And, since every manufacturer right up to Nautor (Swan) and Hinckley, experiences blisters, faulting the layup is a bit pointless. A perfect layup is almost impossible to achieve. SOOOOOOOO, the answer is to try to do everything possible to minimize the permeation of moisture into the laminate, thus eliminating the chance for the blistering process to start. It is true that some hulls have so many imperfections that it is almost impossible to guarantee a long term result. And, some others require that the outer layers of glass be redone. But, most boats can be fixed, and most problems can be prevented, and since fixing blisters is such a nightmare, it makes sense to try an ounce of prevention. A side benefit is that many good yards that have made a speciality of the barrier coat process WILL guarantee their work, for periods up to ten years. Nothing in life is certain, including the quality of the blister repair, but it helps to have someone stand by their work. And it helps resale values. By the way, there was one manufacturer, Uniflite, who built hulls in the late seventies that blistered, even OUT of the water. It was a well intentioned effort to use a fire retardant resin, but it bankrupted the company. So, I guess in that one case, you could blame it all on the layup.
Most responsible research DOES credit the process of laying up fiberglass with some responsibility for blistering, it is true. Small deposits of dust or other impurities can be the "seeds". More frequently, it will be a pocket of resin that has not kicked properly or some "dry glass". But, it takes a hull saturated with moisture for these things to combine with water to form the liquid that makes blisters. And, since every manufacturer right up to Nautor (Swan) and Hinckley, experiences blisters, faulting the layup is a bit pointless. A perfect layup is almost impossible to achieve. SOOOOOOOO, the answer is to try to do everything possible to minimize the permeation of moisture into the laminate, thus eliminating the chance for the blistering process to start. It is true that some hulls have so many imperfections that it is almost impossible to guarantee a long term result. And, some others require that the outer layers of glass be redone. But, most boats can be fixed, and most problems can be prevented, and since fixing blisters is such a nightmare, it makes sense to try an ounce of prevention. A side benefit is that many good yards that have made a speciality of the barrier coat process WILL guarantee their work, for periods up to ten years. Nothing in life is certain, including the quality of the blister repair, but it helps to have someone stand by their work. And it helps resale values. By the way, there was one manufacturer, Uniflite, who built hulls in the late seventies that blistered, even OUT of the water. It was a well intentioned effort to use a fire retardant resin, but it bankrupted the company. So, I guess in that one case, you could blame it all on the layup.
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Frank / MD / H260
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Jim WIllis
My Gulf 32 had barrier coat from New..
My 1990 Guld 32 (only 4 years old when I bought it) had barrier coat up to the water line. When hauled over 3 years ago (due again now), there were no real underwater blisters, except at the waterline, above the level of the barrier coat (the boat was lower in the water on one side)these gelcoat blisters were huge. Clearly barrier coats seems to work and if I had a new boat I would make sure to do everything to protect against blisters. However, as pointed out byone of our customers, it is also possible that my boat had vinyl ester or even epoxy outer layer on the underwater portion of the hull. Incidentally, there was a posting by someone on this forum a few months ago, who had a tame expert friend who had tested various makes of barrier coat on pieces of old gelcoat that were kep immersed. I think that Interluxe cam out best- any extra info on this? Although a dry bilge is a help and poor layup may be involved, blisters do NOT happen without water penetration. This is dealt (as are gelcoat blister repairs) in one of my IG newsletters as "Trilogy III" to be posted on this forum very soon. If you do not want to wait, just send an e-mail through www.islandgirlproducts.com requesting the gelcoat blister info. Thanks (and sorry about the previous typos) Jim WIllis
My 1990 Guld 32 (only 4 years old when I bought it) had barrier coat up to the water line. When hauled over 3 years ago (due again now), there were no real underwater blisters, except at the waterline, above the level of the barrier coat (the boat was lower in the water on one side)these gelcoat blisters were huge. Clearly barrier coats seems to work and if I had a new boat I would make sure to do everything to protect against blisters. However, as pointed out byone of our customers, it is also possible that my boat had vinyl ester or even epoxy outer layer on the underwater portion of the hull. Incidentally, there was a posting by someone on this forum a few months ago, who had a tame expert friend who had tested various makes of barrier coat on pieces of old gelcoat that were kep immersed. I think that Interluxe cam out best- any extra info on this? Although a dry bilge is a help and poor layup may be involved, blisters do NOT happen without water penetration. This is dealt (as are gelcoat blister repairs) in one of my IG newsletters as "Trilogy III" to be posted on this forum very soon. If you do not want to wait, just send an e-mail through www.islandgirlproducts.com requesting the gelcoat blister info. Thanks (and sorry about the previous typos) Jim WIllis
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Tom
Yes Jim you do need water from somewhere to get
blisters....;-).......But by just putting on a barrier coat there is no garauntee that the blisters won't come back... A watershield coating without a total removal of acid remnants, styrene and uncured resin is a waste of your money to-day and will cost you a lot more in the future! Long time tests proved: Contradicting earlier theories, most osmosis hulls conventionally dried and epoxy coated without effective acid removal become deep damages faster than similar hulls not treated at all! (its really Hydrolysis not Osmosis that is the culprit) take a look at the website linked below
blisters....;-).......But by just putting on a barrier coat there is no garauntee that the blisters won't come back... A watershield coating without a total removal of acid remnants, styrene and uncured resin is a waste of your money to-day and will cost you a lot more in the future! Long time tests proved: Contradicting earlier theories, most osmosis hulls conventionally dried and epoxy coated without effective acid removal become deep damages faster than similar hulls not treated at all! (its really Hydrolysis not Osmosis that is the culprit) take a look at the website linked below
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R.W.Landau
Barrier coat decision
I have not seen any bad problems after barrier coating, even after blister repair. Yes I have seen some blisters return but a small percentage of the ones that were repaired. One of the nightmare problems is the repair materials that were used but later the product was declared unsuitable for submerged use. I have seen bad problems with no barrier coat. The people on this site have responded that the barrier coat that they put on was a plus. Most of the disagreement is from people that have not said that they have barrier coated, but researched. If the barrier coat is providing protection, and for what, 20 to 50 bucks /foot( 5 to 10 bucks a foot if you do it yourself). Why would you not protect? It could protect you from 15000 and up bottom shave and then they put on epoxy to coat the reinforced fiberglas anyway. Yes there may be a problem with a blister that has not been repaired correctly. YOU DON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM. You asked about a new boat. For 1000 to 2000 bucks to protect your 20000 plus investment...go for it! r.w.landau
I have not seen any bad problems after barrier coating, even after blister repair. Yes I have seen some blisters return but a small percentage of the ones that were repaired. One of the nightmare problems is the repair materials that were used but later the product was declared unsuitable for submerged use. I have seen bad problems with no barrier coat. The people on this site have responded that the barrier coat that they put on was a plus. Most of the disagreement is from people that have not said that they have barrier coated, but researched. If the barrier coat is providing protection, and for what, 20 to 50 bucks /foot( 5 to 10 bucks a foot if you do it yourself). Why would you not protect? It could protect you from 15000 and up bottom shave and then they put on epoxy to coat the reinforced fiberglas anyway. Yes there may be a problem with a blister that has not been repaired correctly. YOU DON'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM. You asked about a new boat. For 1000 to 2000 bucks to protect your 20000 plus investment...go for it! r.w.landau
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Jim WIllis
You can get rid of acids from the blisters but ...
I am sure that we all agree that uncured resin material in the lay up and between gelcoat and first layer is the source of the trouble, ONCE WATER GETS TO IT. However, you can only remove this stuff from the old blisters- no way of getting to it in the laminate (only complete curing when originally built is the answer). Therefore, I vote for barrier coat and/or outer layer of epoxy resin. What is the best barrier coat to use? Happy New Year Jim W
I am sure that we all agree that uncured resin material in the lay up and between gelcoat and first layer is the source of the trouble, ONCE WATER GETS TO IT. However, you can only remove this stuff from the old blisters- no way of getting to it in the laminate (only complete curing when originally built is the answer). Therefore, I vote for barrier coat and/or outer layer of epoxy resin. What is the best barrier coat to use? Happy New Year Jim W
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R.W.Landau
Jim,
Most barrier coats are epoxy resin. The only other I am aware of is the VC tar. I know nothing about it. My choice is Interlux 2000. Applied as directed. r.w.landau
Most barrier coats are epoxy resin. The only other I am aware of is the VC tar. I know nothing about it. My choice is Interlux 2000. Applied as directed. r.w.landau
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