If a boat for sale is advertised as having a"West System Epoxy Barrier Coat on Bottom", would this imply a previous problem? What other reasons would someone go to this expense and effort? Thanks
- Status
When I purchased my Hunter 386 I had it barrier coated at the Factory. It's insurance against blisters since vinyl and polyester resin will both absorb water. I would not be concerned but pleased because it was done
The boat might have had blisters
but that is not abnormal. A barrier cote would normally be put on to either prevent blisters, or to prevent them from coming back after the problem has been corrected. As Ken said its a good thing.
but that is not abnormal. A barrier cote would normally be put on to either prevent blisters, or to prevent them from coming back after the problem has been corrected. As Ken said its a good thing.
I personally believe that barrier coats
are not needed if a fiberglass hull has been laid up and cured properly. I've owned 5 fiberglass boats, none bought new, all of which lived in salty water, and none came with barrier coats nor did I ever apply one. None eve had any sign of blisters, even my old C&C when it hit 30 yrs old. My current Hunter 28.5 is nearing its 22d birthday and still shows no signs of blisters. Having never bought a new boat, I would be astounded to learn that Hunter, or any other maker of new boats, was offering to barrier coat one of their new boats off the assembly line. I can see a commissioning dealer offering it (for a variety of bad reasons that I would question, like being offered undercoating on a new car and other add-ons, that I don't want or need, but increase the dealer's profit margin). But a factory undercoat sounds, at least to me, like a boat maker who knows or is wary of his own product and production processes. While a used boat may have been barrier coated by a PO, I would certainly like to know why this was done, (1) was it for the perceived benefit of preventive maintenance or (2) did the boat have blisters (that were hopefully correctly repaired and then the barrier coat applied). I'd also be curious to know how many of you new boat owners out there had the factory (not the dealer) undercoat your new boat. How would that impact or relate to the typical 5 yr hull guarantee?
are not needed if a fiberglass hull has been laid up and cured properly. I've owned 5 fiberglass boats, none bought new, all of which lived in salty water, and none came with barrier coats nor did I ever apply one. None eve had any sign of blisters, even my old C&C when it hit 30 yrs old. My current Hunter 28.5 is nearing its 22d birthday and still shows no signs of blisters. Having never bought a new boat, I would be astounded to learn that Hunter, or any other maker of new boats, was offering to barrier coat one of their new boats off the assembly line. I can see a commissioning dealer offering it (for a variety of bad reasons that I would question, like being offered undercoating on a new car and other add-ons, that I don't want or need, but increase the dealer's profit margin). But a factory undercoat sounds, at least to me, like a boat maker who knows or is wary of his own product and production processes. While a used boat may have been barrier coated by a PO, I would certainly like to know why this was done, (1) was it for the perceived benefit of preventive maintenance or (2) did the boat have blisters (that were hopefully correctly repaired and then the barrier coat applied). I'd also be curious to know how many of you new boat owners out there had the factory (not the dealer) undercoat your new boat. How would that impact or relate to the typical 5 yr hull guarantee?
Warren, IMHO you are indeed fortunate. In warm freshwater,
blisters are pandemic. I think the main reasons are that fresh water fosters osmosis more than salt and below the Mason Dixon, most boats are left in the water year round instead of being put on the hard for several months of the year. The best performance I've seen (here) is from the later models that used a reformulated resin and very few blisters appear. AFAIK, our boat - a 1996 - is one of the older "late" models and it had ~ 6 or so when pulled for a survey 2 years ago when we bought it.
blisters are pandemic. I think the main reasons are that fresh water fosters osmosis more than salt and below the Mason Dixon, most boats are left in the water year round instead of being put on the hard for several months of the year. The best performance I've seen (here) is from the later models that used a reformulated resin and very few blisters appear. AFAIK, our boat - a 1996 - is one of the older "late" models and it had ~ 6 or so when pulled for a survey 2 years ago when we bought it.
My boat was barrier coated at the time it was C-Flexed.
It was a standard practice. That gorgeous gray coat still looks brand new.
It was a standard practice. That gorgeous gray coat still looks brand new.
Barrier coating
Steve, There are very good reasons to have had it barrier coated. I think it would be a good idea to ask who did the barrier coating, and talk to him. Hopefully it was a professional who can attest to the condition before and after the job. If a boat was ever or will be in need of barrier coating, it only has to be done once in a boat's lifetime. So, if it was done properly, you should be spared that future expense. For reference, a yard recently quoted me an estimate of $155 per foot.
Steve, There are very good reasons to have had it barrier coated. I think it would be a good idea to ask who did the barrier coating, and talk to him. Hopefully it was a professional who can attest to the condition before and after the job. If a boat was ever or will be in need of barrier coating, it only has to be done once in a boat's lifetime. So, if it was done properly, you should be spared that future expense. For reference, a yard recently quoted me an estimate of $155 per foot.
Not necessarily ...
Barrier coating is to prevent water uptake into the fiberglass of the hull, especially the structural components of the fiberglass. Between 1970 and 2000 the resins and techniques used to lay-up fiberglass were not fully understood and had inherent 'risks' for hydrolysis of the FRG plus osmotic blisters. Barrier coatings prevented/lessened the water migration into the fiberglass. So, that a boat is barrier coated only means that it was built between those years and the owner was prudent enough to apply the barrier to prevent or lessen the problems. Probably the most definitive article on 'blisters'/barrier coating/, etc., go to: www.yachtsurvey.com ---> blisters for a full explanation.
Barrier coating is to prevent water uptake into the fiberglass of the hull, especially the structural components of the fiberglass. Between 1970 and 2000 the resins and techniques used to lay-up fiberglass were not fully understood and had inherent 'risks' for hydrolysis of the FRG plus osmotic blisters. Barrier coatings prevented/lessened the water migration into the fiberglass. So, that a boat is barrier coated only means that it was built between those years and the owner was prudent enough to apply the barrier to prevent or lessen the problems. Probably the most definitive article on 'blisters'/barrier coating/, etc., go to: www.yachtsurvey.com ---> blisters for a full explanation.
New boat
I barrier coated my new boat at the dealers yard. I was told by the dealer that it would not void my warranty. I decided to do it as a preventative measure. It couldn't hurt doing it when new, but it could hurt if I didn't do it. -Ralph
I barrier coated my new boat at the dealers yard. I was told by the dealer that it would not void my warranty. I decided to do it as a preventative measure. It couldn't hurt doing it when new, but it could hurt if I didn't do it. -Ralph
Ans. Last Question: To avoid future problems and expen$e
We bought our boat new in 1988 which is 20 years ago and opted to have it barrier coated. The cost back then was somewhere around $1,600 to about $2,000 for our 35-footer, not a cheap add on. I weighed the probability of blisters and the estimated time and cost of dealing with them to arrive at the decision. It was a tough decision but after all this time I think it was a good one because there has never been a blister. The boatyards here always have some boats with blisters and the owners deal with them in various ways - from ignoring them and just leaving the lumps looking like a bad case of acne to individually digging them out and filling the holes. Some boats go into enclosures to be stripped and built up again. There are newer systems that vacuum out the water from the roving that saves lay-day costs and down time. Sure, the barrier coat could have been done after a peel-and-strip but it could also have been done as a preventive measure by someone who was particular in the maintenance of their boat. If the answer is the latter, because money was spent for something that does nothing for appearance or comfort, it could be a good sign that the rest of the boat may have had above attention to detail. Where the boat has been kept (you didn't say where) makes a difference and where you're going to keep the boat (you didn't say where for that either) also makes a difference. Fresh water, warm water, and contact time is more prone to causing blisters. Even if a blister never shows up on a hull that does not mean there is no water in the fiberglass. Also, if you're a racer or a performance sailor, all that water adds weight which can be considerable, and which, in effect, slows the boat down. Bottom line, a barrier coat that can save anywhere from hundreds in DYI pop-grid-and-fill to thousands in a peal-and-strip costs, hull drying, laydays, and lost utility, is a benefit.
We bought our boat new in 1988 which is 20 years ago and opted to have it barrier coated. The cost back then was somewhere around $1,600 to about $2,000 for our 35-footer, not a cheap add on. I weighed the probability of blisters and the estimated time and cost of dealing with them to arrive at the decision. It was a tough decision but after all this time I think it was a good one because there has never been a blister. The boatyards here always have some boats with blisters and the owners deal with them in various ways - from ignoring them and just leaving the lumps looking like a bad case of acne to individually digging them out and filling the holes. Some boats go into enclosures to be stripped and built up again. There are newer systems that vacuum out the water from the roving that saves lay-day costs and down time. Sure, the barrier coat could have been done after a peel-and-strip but it could also have been done as a preventive measure by someone who was particular in the maintenance of their boat. If the answer is the latter, because money was spent for something that does nothing for appearance or comfort, it could be a good sign that the rest of the boat may have had above attention to detail. Where the boat has been kept (you didn't say where) makes a difference and where you're going to keep the boat (you didn't say where for that either) also makes a difference. Fresh water, warm water, and contact time is more prone to causing blisters. Even if a blister never shows up on a hull that does not mean there is no water in the fiberglass. Also, if you're a racer or a performance sailor, all that water adds weight which can be considerable, and which, in effect, slows the boat down. Bottom line, a barrier coat that can save anywhere from hundreds in DYI pop-grid-and-fill to thousands in a peal-and-strip costs, hull drying, laydays, and lost utility, is a benefit.
In Review
Thanks for all of the input. It seems to me that regardless of why the barrier coat was applied, as long as it was done properly, there should be no reason to be worried. Am I correct in that assumtion
Thanks for all of the input. It seems to me that regardless of why the barrier coat was applied, as long as it was done properly, there should be no reason to be worried. Am I correct in that assumtion
A few more thoughts on barrier coating
I continue to believe that a factory applied barrier coat is a defacto admission on the part of the boat maker that he thinks he may have produced an inferior product -- and wants you to pay for that. The boat maker is making you, the buyer, his quality control person and at your expense. As far as barrier coating a used boat goes, I personally believe that the key to a "successfully" applied barrier coat is going to be how well the old hull has been prepared, particularly how long and well it has been dried out. That may take a loooooooooong time, indoors, and under controlled heat and humidity conditions. A boat just sitting on the hard for a long time will not "dry out." If the hull was not laid up properly when the boat was born, there may be fluids trapped in the laminate that no barrier coat is ever going to help protect you against when it begins to migrate outward -- or inward. If you walk around a big boatyard and look at some older boats on the hard, you may be able to see very small crystalline deposits here and there. Such deposits are the precursors to blisters. This is what I look for when looking for a used boat. Barrier coating such a boat would be a waste to time and money, IMHO.
I continue to believe that a factory applied barrier coat is a defacto admission on the part of the boat maker that he thinks he may have produced an inferior product -- and wants you to pay for that. The boat maker is making you, the buyer, his quality control person and at your expense. As far as barrier coating a used boat goes, I personally believe that the key to a "successfully" applied barrier coat is going to be how well the old hull has been prepared, particularly how long and well it has been dried out. That may take a loooooooooong time, indoors, and under controlled heat and humidity conditions. A boat just sitting on the hard for a long time will not "dry out." If the hull was not laid up properly when the boat was born, there may be fluids trapped in the laminate that no barrier coat is ever going to help protect you against when it begins to migrate outward -- or inward. If you walk around a big boatyard and look at some older boats on the hard, you may be able to see very small crystalline deposits here and there. Such deposits are the precursors to blisters. This is what I look for when looking for a used boat. Barrier coating such a boat would be a waste to time and money, IMHO.
Trapped Moisture
Steve - what Warren just wrote in his second paragraph is a consideration with a later applied barrier coat. It doesn't do much good to apply the barrier coat years later after water has already penetrated the fiberglass. The hull must be dried out for it to have any positive benefit or it needs to be put on a new boat. It doesn't do much good to close the barn door after the horse has escaped. There are some firms that have equipment that essentially sucks the moisture out - sort of a vacuum bag type process but one that removes water instead of air as is used in fiberglass lay-ups. With regard to a manufacturer installing a barrier coat at the factory, I'm sure the added expense is a very significant factor. For every dollar of something they do the item has to be sold for another, say, 40% so this jacks the price up to $1.40. Also, the barrier coat could become damaged during shipping and handling between the factory and the destination boatyard. Bottom line, I think selling price is key. The cheaper they can make it the better for sales because most buyers fixate on price, period. When you look at how manufacturers try to save a buck, er, make that a penny, and you've seen some of the things they do to make it cheap, then you can see why they don't add a barrier coat. There's the old saying, "Money is the root of all evil", and while the omission of a barrier coat may not be exactly 'evil', it is certainly cheaper. I like the oil commercial saying: "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later."
Steve - what Warren just wrote in his second paragraph is a consideration with a later applied barrier coat. It doesn't do much good to apply the barrier coat years later after water has already penetrated the fiberglass. The hull must be dried out for it to have any positive benefit or it needs to be put on a new boat. It doesn't do much good to close the barn door after the horse has escaped. There are some firms that have equipment that essentially sucks the moisture out - sort of a vacuum bag type process but one that removes water instead of air as is used in fiberglass lay-ups. With regard to a manufacturer installing a barrier coat at the factory, I'm sure the added expense is a very significant factor. For every dollar of something they do the item has to be sold for another, say, 40% so this jacks the price up to $1.40. Also, the barrier coat could become damaged during shipping and handling between the factory and the destination boatyard. Bottom line, I think selling price is key. The cheaper they can make it the better for sales because most buyers fixate on price, period. When you look at how manufacturers try to save a buck, er, make that a penny, and you've seen some of the things they do to make it cheap, then you can see why they don't add a barrier coat. There's the old saying, "Money is the root of all evil", and while the omission of a barrier coat may not be exactly 'evil', it is certainly cheaper. I like the oil commercial saying: "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later."
- Status