Ballast Idea.....Dumb Idea....Might Work....???

[Sumner]

A ballast idea for a 26S and I guess a D also. The picture above is the bilge area on the port side of our S looking aft. The hull is to the right, the water ballast tank is on the lower left and above that is the bottom of the seat side in the cabin.

If someone were to make a "v" shaped tank that would fit where the arrows are with a flat top that would conform to the hull side and ballast tank side to spread the load and put lead shot in it for either the whole distance where the ballast tank is or some shorter distance would this make the boat less tender?

If my calculations are right you could add up to 350# per side in this area (defined by the arrows)and still keep most of the space below the seat for storage. Of course you could add any amount less than 350# per side. I was thinking maybe 150# per side. This weight would be secured so that it wouldn't move even if the boat was knocked down.

I hope some of you take both sides of the argument for or against this idea.

Is a feasible idea?

Would it really make any difference?

I've been trying to figure if it would have any effect on the boat since it isn't in the center, but yet it is still pretty low in the boat.

I realize that for a stock one axle trailer this would of course be a bad idea, but for a 2 axle I can't see it being a big deal.

The main thing is would it make a 26S or 26D less tender and/or safer in anyway?

Sam Hunter added 80 lbs. of concrete to the inside of his ballast tank. That is what got me to thinking about that.

Thanks and fire away,

Sum

P.S. If the picture isn't clear as to where the weight would be located let me know.

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[Mic Jones]

Hi Sum. You are stimulating for the grey matter. No idea is dumb if it make one think.

I knew I shouldn't have check the forum just before going to bed.

Most fixed keel boats seem to have the ballast in the keel lower down than what you are suggesting. I wonder what the effects are to the forward and aft movement that occurs on tidal waters (waves) Also It may not be too quick to correct taking waves on the quarter with such a high C of G.

Here in BC over 2,000lbs gross would require trailer brakes which I read you were concidering. Getting back to your Kootenay log. Did the vehicle you have (borrowed ?) have a transmission cooler? You would need one for the extra weight you plan to tow.

Final thought the for the night. When removing the boat from the trailer for maintainance this may cause a stress problem on the hull, lifting gear and stands.

ps. it may require extra bunks on the trailer.

ppss. What weight would you get putting in water ballast tanks. Pumping the water via the main tank, and maybe empting it the same way or out of the cockpit drain. You could adjust ballast for lakes, the chuck or changing conditions whilst sailing.

Now how Am I going to sleep ???

Mic

 

[Mike B1026]

I'm not a marine engineer but I can't imagine placing that weight in an area not designed to support a load like that. What are you trying to fix? Being more "tender" than some other designs isn't "unsafe", it's merely a character of this model.

 

[Justin_NSA]

I agree with Mike mostly. To be open though, why don't you experiment with sandbags? You could adjust the amount and position of the weight.

 

[Sumner]

I can't imagine placing that weight in an area not designed to support a load like that. What are you trying to fix?

From the strength standpoint I'm not too worried. The 150 lbs. would be spread over more than 800 square inches, so the weight per square inch would be less than 4 oz per square inch or 27 lb. per square foot. Think of it as a person laying down in there. With the hull meeting the ballast tank right at that point it should be a pretty strong area, but of course it could be a concern.

Being more "tender" than some other designs isn't "unsafe", it's merely a character of this model.

I agree with that, but also feel that boats in our length that have more displacement and ballast are safer in some situations. Going to Florida we will have a pretty good opportunity to get out of the water if a major storm is in the area. If and when we go to the Sea of Cortez that might not be an option. Even on the last trip to Lake Powell.............

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

........... we didn't get to pick the conditions. I feel very comfortable with the 26S and chances are we won't do this, but I'm always looking for options for things I'm involved with. I'll be giving both of your thoughts consideration for sure, thanks.

To be open though, why don't you experiment with sandbags? You could adjust the amount and position of the weight.

Great idea.

What weight would you get putting in water ballast tanks. Pumping the water via the main tank, and maybe emptying it the same way or out of the cockpit drain. You could adjust ballast for lakes, the chuck or changing conditions whilst sailing.

Now how Am I going to sleep ???

Water in that size of an area would add very little weight as the compartment outlined by the arrows is only about 1/2 of a cubic foot, so that would only be about 30 lbs. of water.

We borrowed a pickup for our first trip. Gave up on the Jeep as a tow vehicle, thank goodness. Bought a used '99 Suburban for the subsequent trips and love it. You can really get good buys on them now and they will go 250,000 to 300,000 miles if you take care of them before needing any major repair. I don't think hauling they get that much worst gas mileage than anything else. We averaged 11-12 on that 3000 mile trip up there and get 17 on the highway without the trailer (trip this fall to Long Beach 1600 miles). Yes it has a cooler and the next thing being done to the boat/trailer is adding an axle and disc brakes on that axle.

Now the big question is did you get any sleep? Also you should write about your trips. You have a great writing style and Ruth and I really enjoyed your post the other day. I thought I was doing pretty well with 4 minute pees, guess I have something to look forward to . In fact all of you guys should write about your trips. We read a lot of trip reports and that is what helps up pick places to go and things to do to the Mac.

Back to the ballast, I might make a plastic bottle ship (cut in half lengthwise) and put some ballast in it to see what happens.

c ya and keep the thoughts coming,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[walt]

The two added weight sections will have a center of gravity smack in between thier individual center of gravities. This will put the overall center of gravity maybe a foot or so higher than what Sam did since I understand his added ballast was right at the bottom of the hull V. You would need to look at moment arm calculations to see how much this matters - but it will certainly matter. What your proposing is simpler to implement but less effective per added weight than what Sam did. Im not sure what problem it is your solving with this as the stability of the boat works fine for me - I have doubts if you would gain any speed doing this - new higher performance sails would probably give significantly better results. If you did do this, I would probably limit the lead to just the very bottom where it is most effective. If the boat isnt made for where you want to take it, I would question if adding the weight is going to solve that problem.

I cant see anything wrong with doing this.. probably would not notice much of a difference when towing and your going to dual axle trailer regardless. As you said, make sure it doesnt come loose in a knockdown. Would you add an equivalent amount of floatation to make sure the boat still floats when swamped?

 

[oreana123]

There is a longitudinal line around which the boat rotates and I am not sure where it actually is on my boat. Any weight at all will have the greatest effect on the trim of the boat, the farther it is from the longitudinal line. Example: 20 extra pounds at the end of your daggerboard, would have more effect than 200 lbs of weight inside the hull. Same goes for items on the mast. 5 lbs of weight on the top of the mast (easily done by installing antenna, coax and lights and wires) has the same effect as hundreds of lbs down low. Also, please take care that the place you want to stow the ballast actually is below the longitudinal line, one could create a boat that would rather come to rest upside down, or be reluctant to right itself.

Since I destroyed my daggerboard this summer in an act of stupidity, I have been thinking about a different dboard design. It would be great to have 100 lbs of lead formed into a bulb attached to the end of the new dboard. It would require a modification to the trailer, but I can do that with some extra welded bars on the back crosspiece. That would be effective ballast!

By the way, after installing an anchor light and an antenna and coax, I removed all of that gear. I believe a handheld radio will work for me, and I have LED lights I can run up the mast for the times I actually anchor out for the night.

 

[Sumner]

There is a longitudinal line around which the boat rotates and I am not sure where it actually is on my boat. Any weight at all will have the greatest effect on the trim of the boat, the farther it is from the longitudinal line. Example: 20 extra pounds at the end of your daggerboard, would have more effect than 200 lbs of weight inside the hull. Same goes for items on the mast. 5 lbs of weight on the top of the mast (easily done by installing antenna, coax and lights and wires) has the same effect as hundreds of lbs down low. Also, please take care that the place you want to stow the ballast actually is below the longitudinal line, one could create a boat that would rather come to rest upside down, or be reluctant to right itself.

Here is a good article on.......

...... how a water ballast boat works compared to a....

........ a boat with more conventional keel ballast. Good article....

http://h260.com/water_ballast/water_ballast_index.html

Looking at the first set of pictures placing the weight as I had shown below the water line would have some effect, how much, who knows until they did it. There is no question that the lower it is the better it works, but I do like our swing keel and shallow draft and at this point wouldn't want to give that up for another boat.

John I know you are suggesting I don't move my antenna to the top of the mast and can see the reason for it. In reality how much difference did you feel at heel angles under 15-18 degrees. I can see that the further the boat does heel the more effect the weight would have up high. With the boat flat in the water it would have none and I would think even up to 5 degrees it would have little to none as the moment arm is so slight, but I would be interested in the difference at say 12-18 degrees, thanks. Does anyone on here have their VHF antenna at the top of their mast?

Now if we had a dagger board I would most likely do exactly what you are saying...

I have been thinking about a different dboard design. It would be great to have 100 lbs of lead formed into a bulb attached to the end of the new dboard.

Don't know if you have seen this ...

[ttyouyube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouu-1sijuEU&feature=player_embedded[/ttyouyube]

Pretty neat, but they also talk about beefing up the centerboard trunk. I guess that might or might not be needed depending on the weight added.

I can see where keel/centerboard weight would be beneficial to racing as you could carry more sail at any given heel angle. We aren't concerned about that.

As I mentioned earlier we most likely won't pursue this, but I like to think about if it would give any safety edge. The Sea of Cortez could be in our plans at some point as I mentioned and others have done it in an S or D or both. The crossing most make at San Carlos to the west side is over 50 miles. In an X or M as Bill has pointed out to me that could be done in a matter of hours. With a S or D you are probably looking at 10-12 hours minimum on the motor. Further south it is much further re-crossing if you cross there. You can always look for good weather days, but who can for sure guarantee what will happen on any day. Maybe the S or D isn't the ideal boat for down there, but I hope it is.

Thanks for everyone's input,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[walt]

Safety stuff I would worry about for a coastal crossing in order:

1. Comunications for help if you needed help
2. You can get a head injury from getting hit by the boom
3. Some other type of medical emergency
4. Outboard failure/running out of gas
5. If the plumbing busts in the Laz, any water in the cockpit ends up in the Laz. If the Laz is water tight, probably not a big deal
6. The rudder is maybe the weakest part on these boats, what if it busts
7. Centerboard could also bust
8. Rig falling / crashing on the deck
..
..
18. Running out of booze
19. Running out of food/water
20. The stability of the water ballast boat (I think its a good safety feature that the boat is always self righting regardless of what the centerboard or dagger board is doing or positioned, dont need to worry about damaging a fixed keel)

 

[MrBill_FLL]

Safety stuff I would worry about for a coastal crossing in order:

1. Comunications for help if you needed help
2. You can get a head injury from getting hit by the boom
3. Some other type of medical emergency
4. Outboard failure/running out of gas
5. If the plumbing busts in the Laz, any water in the cockpit ends up in the Laz. If the Laz is water tight, probably not a big deal
6. The rudder is maybe the weakest part on these boats, what if it busts
7. Centerboard could also bust
8. Rig falling / crashing on the deck
..
..
18. Running out of booze
19. Running out of food/water
20. The stability of the water ballast boat (I think its a good safety feature that the boat is always self righting regardless of what the centerboard or dagger board is doing or positioned, dont need to worry about damaging a fixed keel)

At least you have your priorities in order!!!

one of the 1st things I did was buy rubber plugs for the outside openings of the boat. (added a screw and wired it near the opening, even though I'd go over to put it in)

I'd like to see a weighted daggerboard for sale.. but modding the trailer might be a pain.

Sum, put the vhf on the masthead! thats only line of sight, and you'll want that. (not so much in hte keys, but in sea of cortez) (don't forget to quiet the wires going up! w/ zipties, or foam noodles -yet even MORE weight!)
-that said, I only have a hand held vhf...

JohnS is racing.. totally different needs. sure weight up high has a pendulum effect... it will heel the boat and make you reef sooner.

I'm suprised he hasn't done the spectra to wire halyard conversion...


I've had the rig come down twice.. both time very very lucky! (hobie 16 2x, ripped the shroud out of the pontoon, and a badly worn 'pigtail' wire broke.)

also broke a rudder, burned up an impeller in the ob, and have been smacked in the head with the main sheet blocks... but I've never run out of booze!

 

[Sumner]

1. Communications for help if you needed help

Working on improving the VHF and looking at SSB Rig and a HAM license.

2. You can get a head injury from getting hit by the boom

Added ..............

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/rigging-9.html

........preventers and will improve those. I can't see why anyone would not want to use them, unless of course they do like getting hit in the head.

3. Some other type of medical emergency.

See #1 and we carry a lot of first aid stuff now, thanks to Ruth (I'm really bad about this one, but heck I have her :dance.

4. Outboard failure/running out of gas

Getting a new outboard and carry the 5 Hp Nissan as a spare, always and installing a 16 gallon vented permanent tank.

5. If the plumbing busts in the Laz, any water in the cockpit ends up in the Laz. If the Laz is water tight, probably not a big deal.

Have to look into that, but the boat did come with 2 manual bilge pumps.

6. The rudder is maybe the weakest part on these boats, what if it busts.

An Ida Sailor rudder bust??. I trust my new one, but that said I will drill holes in the other end of it over the winter and if (still a big 'if') we did the Sea of Cortez I would probably have a crude wood spare with us. I don't see the need for the spare where we have been sailing or are going to sail in the next year (with the holes in the other end though). The Sea of Cortez is different. You are out there, usually by yourself and you had better be able to fix things. Generally I'm pretty good at that.

7. Centerboard could also bust.

We have failed to lower ours on many occasions .............

.................. and have even sailed into the wind that way to some degree. I don't consider that as big a safety issue as some of the other things you mentioned.

8. Rig falling / crashing on the deck.

Not good and a reason I think it is time to re-rig the boat. It is also on the 'to do list' to be done over the winter.
.
.
.
.

18. Running out of booze.

We live in Utah, but aren't LDS, but still beer is a take it or leave it deal with us. Bill when you are on board we will be sure to stay stocked .

19. Running out of food/water.

With food for a month always and 30 gallons of water I don't think that is an issue.

Now can we get to #20??

20. The stability of the water ballast boat (I think its a good safety feature that the boat is always self righting regardless of what the centerboard or dagger board is doing or positioned, don't need to worry about damaging a fixed keel) .

As I've said before this is something that interests me and I was glad to find the site that enlightened me about how weight really does work in conjunction with the center of buoyancy, besides just knowing that weight at the bottom of a vessel would help to keep it righted.

Good thing MacGregor figured it out also or maybe our boats wouldn't be self-righting. I would tend to think that if the water ballast was replace with lead or something even heavier than water that they would even be more self-righting .

I'm glad Sam posted his efforts in this direction and it got me thinking. I applaud him for thinking outside of the box .

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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[oreana1234]

Joel at Idasailor will put weight in your new daggerboard. He pretty much has to because HDPE floats, the stock daggerboard has holes to allow it to flood. Even with the extra weight in my Ida dboard, (sadly the lower half lies on the bottom of CJStrike Reservoir), always was easy to adjust at any angle of heel.

I like the dboard movie. Since our boats are trailerable, I would never want to interfere with easy launch/retrieval. Macgregor placed the back cross member of the trailer right where it needs to be to prevent driving up the ramp with the dboard down, something I am sure I would have otherwise done eventually. I am looking for a lot of lead right now to form into a bulb.

I am not a hard core racer. There are members in my sailing club that I would call hard core. $$$ I am always looking for a magic modification that will give me a significant edge over the hard core guys, but without the expense. I really thought that my cutter rig would do that for me, and it may be just the thing in light airs. I am still experimenting with it. With a large weight at the end of my dboard, I'd be able to leave more sail up into higher wind velocities.

 

[walt]

One other thing that has happened to me, dont know if it was just my boat..

One time I had a full load of adults in the back of the boat and my kid took care of the ballast tank. Dont remember the detaills but I think he did not tighten the ballast valve all the way and also left off the plug to the access hole. With the back of the boat heavilly loaded (like with four adults), the valve hole and possibly also the access hole are BELOW the water line. So water came in and started filling the starboard under seat area. If you let this go on for a while, the boat would sink lower and lower until its swamped. Its a little bit of a design flaw in the at least the 1990 26S. I believe the M has the valve hardware in what looks like a vase. Since water cant leak out of the vase, the boat can not sink even if the holes go below water line because of a heavy load. I think some of the X years also have the "flaw" and under certain conditions, can fill internally from the valve holes.

On my S, I built a little dam around the valve hole and access hole area so that at worst, the dam area will fill with water but nothing more. I also raised the level of the access hole - in conjuntion with the larger hole for the zebra kill hot water wash. With the dam, I often have some water in the dam after sailing. I think others have also done something similar but this is also something to consider.. maybe its not needed but it gives me some peace of mind.. especially if I were a ways from land with a cruising load.

 

[beamreach]

Oreana, have you thought about a wing keel addition instead of the bulb? I knew a sailor who had a Freyers 38 with an abominable draft. Many a night I had to pull him off the shallow part of the channel (5 ft.) with my skiff. He took some length off his keel (a spade) and poured a lead wing and attatched it. How I don't know but afterwards the boat was still very stiff and sailed like a banshee! The wing might get the end of your keel in snugger to the bottom of your hull than a bulb, fit on the trailer better and achieve the same end as stiffness and speed goes. Just a thought.