Balancing The Helm

[SV_GALATEIA]

Wing Keel, full main, full 110? jib close hauled on a port tac with a good 15 knots of wind. Boat wants to head up into the wing, alot of effort on the tiller to keep it from rounding up. Its a really fun sail...but... whats the best/proper adjustments to balance the helm? Tried to imagine my tiller pilot steering and feel it would have been a lot of work for the Raymarine ST 2000.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

That is generally what happens when you are over-powered. The boom vang serves to flatten the main depowering it or simply move the traveler off the wind a bit.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Good first place to start, as Don correctly says.

Once there, and before that, just reef.

We had a 1981 #10496, from 83 to 87, great boat, sailed SF Bay, The Delta, under the GGB.

All we had was a stock 110 and a single reef. Worked fine. Great boats.

 

[MikeHoncho]

I know nothing about Catalinas.....how much rake is in the mast? Less rake decreases rounding. Assuming it has a traveler.....flatten out the sail with the vang and let off on the traveler instead of the main sheet with the gusts( when it wants to round up). Just read Dons post after I did mine. We are saying the same thing

 

[jon hansen]

as the boat heels over the center of effort of the sails moves from the center line of the vessel. the farther over the heeling the farther off center. when the sails 'effort' gets way to the side of the vessel, that force is trying to spin the boat. reefing reduces heel, bringing the center point of effort of the rig closer to the center line of the boat.
easing the main will reduce the heeling and reduce the 'weather helm', but that will also means the sail is not at the proper angle which means it will reduce the driving force and it will increase drag aloft and that = slow.
when 'weather helm gets to much, reef. the boat will continue to sail fast.

 

[jon hansen]

in light air we want a full sail, as the wind increases we then want a flatter sail. if the full sail is left full in the stronger winds it will produce drag aloft. that drag will then make the vessel heel more. more heeling, more weather helm. as others have mentioned, flattening the sail will help reduce heel/weather helm.
matching the sq footage aloft to the wind velocity keeps your sails working efficiently with little drag. thats fast

 

[Joe]

The apparent wind direction will move aft in a gust, putting more pressure on the mainsail's windward side than leeward, making the boat heel excessively... which engages the hull and keel to create the rounding up effect. So.. in gusty conditions you want to use the traveler to change the main's angle of attack to match the change in apparent wind direction without changing the trim of your main.
If the wind speed increase steadily until the boat becomes difficult to steer... you are over powered and you need to reset your trim. The first remedy is to start flattening the sails. Outhaul reduces draft depth, Cunningham moves draft forward, mainsheet imparts twist by easing tension on the leech. Backstay adjustment doesn't do much for the mainsail on a masthead rig such as the C22, but you can use it to help the headsail. (next paragraph). If you don't have a Cunningham you can use the halyard. The vang can help if the boom is past the range of the traveler... which isn't much on the C22. So use the vang to control tension on the leech, the mainsheet to control angle of attack... when the traveler is kaput. Some C22 sailors just vang sheet all the time, btw. Anyway, the goal is to "twist" off the top of the sail to depower it... you'll see it getting flatter as you ease the leech tension.

Your headsail will need some attention also.... to depower the jib, move the jib lead aft.... this will put more tension on the foot, less on the leech, opening the upper part of the sail... "twisting" it off per se. Other things you can do is increase halyard tension to help with draft position...and perhaps using the backstay to put more tension on the forestay to keep it from sagging off.
Or...….... you can just order Don Guillette's Sail Trim guide from this website and pat yourself on the back for making such a wise investment.

 

[MikeHoncho]

The apparent wind direction will move aft in a gust, putting more pressure on the mainsail's windward side than leeward, making the boat heel excessively... which engages the hull and keel to create the rounding up effect. So.. in gusty conditions you want to use the traveler to change the main's angle of attack to match the change in apparent wind direction without changing the trim of your main.
If the wind speed increase steadily until the boat becomes difficult to steer... you are over powered and you need to reset your trim. The first remedy is to start flattening the sails. Outhaul reduces draft depth, Cunningham moves draft forward, mainsheet imparts twist by easing tension on the leech. Backstay adjustment doesn't do much for the mainsail on a masthead rig such as the C22, but you can use it to help the headsail. (next paragraph). If you don't have a Cunningham you can use the halyard. The vang can help if the boom is past the range of the traveler... which isn't much on the C22. So use the vang to control tension on the leech, the mainsheet to control angle of attack... when the traveler is kaput. Some C22 sailors just vang sheet all the time, btw. Anyway, the goal is to "twist" off the top of the sail to depower it... you'll see it getting flatter as you ease the leech tension.

Your headsail will need some attention also.... to depower the jib, move the jib lead aft.... this will put more tension on the foot, less on the leech, opening the upper part of the sail... "twisting" it off per se. Other things you can do is increase halyard tension to help with draft position...and perhaps using the backstay to put more tension on the forestay to keep it from sagging off.
Or...….... you can just order Don Guillette's Sail Trim guide from this website and pat yourself on the back for making such a wise investment.

Not to hijack but a vang question. I sail Lasers and vang trim is a significant thing in heavy wind sailing if you want to try to stay dry. By cranking on the vang on a beam reach with gusty conditions this allows you to ease off the main sheet to lessen heeling/flipping while not allowing the boom to rise and power the sail up. There is no traveler. I’m in the habit Of doing this on my Hunter 30 with a 130% Genoa. It doesn't make much difference though and I’m thinking this is due to the stiff mast/standing rigging and Genoa. Thoughts?

 

[victorhoisington]

So all of the discussion on sail trim is dead on and will help balance the helm however, before you get into the sail trim aspect you must tune your rig. without this you can never get the balance you want.

My Hunter 28 had all the issues you originally described when I first got her. I spent much of the first season getting the rigged tuned up. I had the older version of the B&R rig with a backstay, the previous owner had put lengtheners on the back stay since it was too hard (for him) to properly tension it. After removing these and getting the back stay tuned (which also tuned the forestay) I then made sure the rest of the rig was perfect.

I in a 7-10 knot breeze i could sail on either tack with no hand on the wheel once the above was completed.

good luck and fair winds

 

[shemandr]

15 knots is getting to be reef time if you don't have a stable of blokes to put on the rail. But also look at your sails. If they are stretching in higher wind and becoming more deep that will build up weather helm. No one thinks they need new sails until they get them.

 

[SV_GALATEIA]

Thanks for all of the responses. I had read in the past many of the sail flattening techniques. No , I didn't try them yesterday. I thought these were more specifically for controlling heel and to improve boat speed. It didn't click that the weather helm/rounding up was so connected with heeling. There currently is no reefing set up on the main. The sail does have a reef point and the boom has a pulley on the aft end that was probably part of a reefing setup. So, new project. Get reefing set up before next sail. And spend more time playing with the sail shaping features. Also, I do have a boom vang but it wasn't set up, so put the boom vang on. Who knew sailing was so much work....

 

[DayDreamer41]

I would not call sailing work, I would call sailing a never ending lesson.....

 

[Brian D]

I can't add anything except sometimes I will set the rudder to center and adjust the sails until the boat sails a straight line (not counting lee way). If she wants to head up I depower the jib first. Might not be the right way to do it. But if I see the jib luff starting to... luff (LOL)... I will then readjust the jib and depower the main. Either way, yeah I may lose some boat speed, but at least I am not fighting the rudder/boat to maintain course.

By the way, I think that if the boat is trying to headup too much then you are out of the groove. Too much heeling can also put you out of the groove. JMHO

 

[Kings Gambit]

The condition of your sails can also affect your weather helm. You want the draft of the mainsail to reside near the mast. Apply Cunningham to pull it forward in strong air. But if the sail is stretched too much (bagged out), there can still be too much draft remaining aft, which puts the heeling force more aft, forcing the stern leeward. Consequently, the bow to is forced to weather causing the boat to round up. You then must work the tiller hard to keep the bow down, etc. The draft of the jib should also be forward at the head stay. If stretched too much, it will “bag” more aft and that will affect the boat’s balance. Also, the stretched jibs cannot be efficiently flattened slowly by moving the jib cars aft.

 

[SV_GALATEIA]

OK,

Reefing line set up. I looked at the reefing kit from catalina direct to see what all was supposed to be there. Mine looks like it was setup to be terminated to a cleat on the boom near the mast vs lead to the cockpit. The CD kit used a white with blue line. In my little bag of line I keep there just happened to be a white with blue line....imagine that. The reefing tack point I put to the same hook as the main tack is on. There is an issue with figuring out the sail slides when reefing and unreefing. There are also two cleats, one on each side of the mast below the boom height. These may be for a line to tie down the reef tack point?

Boom vang also set up.

As to the condition of the sails...that one over my head. Will make due thus season and then remove prior to storing the boat and take them to a sail loft to have them checked out. There probably pretty old but they don't really get used a great deal. The boat is only on the water about 3.5 months a year.

 

[Rillo]

Your foresight on the sail slides when reefing is much better than mine was. Yes, the slides will want to slip out and turn into a mess at an inopportune time. Check out Mastgates.com. Easily in my top 3 best things I ever installed on my C22.

 

[Gene Neill]

Your foresight on the sail slides when reefing is much better than mine was. Yes, the slides will want to slip out and turn into a mess at an inopportune time. Check out Mastgates.com. Easily in my top 3 best things I ever installed on my C22.

Tom Luque at mastgates.com is insatiable in his desire that every customer is 100% satisfied. Great guy, great product.

 

[Lazy1]

Excellent post!
Clear question with clear answers and very little drift. Outstanding!

did I just drift?

 

[Joe]

…. It didn't click that the weather helm/rounding up was so connected with heeling.....

Heh, heh.... now you're getting it! Watch this: (btw, brits call the vang the "kicker")