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Balancing Concerns

Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ
Hello,

I have a 1979 Hunter 27 Cherubini that I just put stern davits on so I could bring a tender (solid hull raft) around with me. The davits work fine and I really like the tender but I have noticed that when the tender is being stored on the davits the bow of my H27 rests about an inch higher then it usually does. The bow is not completely out of the water, the bottom is a good 3 inches under the waterline, but the bottom usually sits 4 inches under the waterline and it is noticable that it is being pulled up. Should I be concerned about this? The davits and tender dont weigh more then your average person but perhaps their position off the stern is adding more lever force to the keel, which in turn is raising the bow. If this is a problem, should I add weight to the front of the boat to compensate?

-Thanks for any help
 
Jan 22, 2008
358
Hunter 37-cutter Bradenton
I would not be concerned about an inch. If you are, store something heavy under the Vberth.
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ
Thank you for your help. I added a second anchor to my anchor locker and I put some sandbags under the v-birth. That solved the problem and the boats handling characteristics have not been affected.
 
Sep 12, 2011
88
Hunter 27 Annapolis
Just make sure the stern doesn't sit so far down that you would even have to think about water back flow through the exhaust port in a following sea. The exhaust exit isn't very high off the waterline on these boats.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,179
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Lake Erie
Weight in the ends

Your solution (balancing the boat by adding weight in the bow) is OK. By adding weight to the bow and the stern, your boat will be more prone to "hobby-horsing" (rocking bow to stern) in larger waves.

It's a good solution, depending on your cruising desires, and conditions.

It might be an issue in the pronounced waves entering or leaving Barnegat Bay, for instance.
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ
That test in the larger waves will have to wait until the spring as my boat is coming out of the water this weekend on November 8th. If the boat does "Hobby Horse" in larger waves to the point where it becomes unstable I'll get a lighter dinghy and remove the weight. As for the water being over the exhaust, that is not a problem that I am having. The exhaust is well above the water line and it would take a lot of weight to bring it under. Thanks for your inputs guys.
 
Jan 22, 2008
127
Hunter 27_75-84 Wilmington, NC
I agree that your solution will work. Be aware that when under diesel power, the h27 stern has a tendency to squat, especially if you are pushing hard. The force of the propulsion wants to raise the bow and lower the stern, at least a few inches.
 
Jun 5, 2010
989
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Yes.

I added a second anchor to my anchor locker and I put some sandbags under the v-birth. That solved the problem and the boats handling characteristics have not been affected.
Truth is, they have, and very much so. What I think you mean is that the boat seems to float level and doesn't appear to be out of trim under way. However, with the anchor (and sandbags!?) forward and the davits aft, you now have a very much increased tendency towards hobby-horsing and you've added significant weight to the precisely worst places to tolerate added weight: the ends.

I say this not to make you feel bad, but to educate you. Your first worry, that you may have untrimmed the boat, was correct; what you did to 'remedy' it was to merely spoil the boat's trim in the other direction, as though to compensate. If you don't mind the reduced speed, the increased heel (to which all H27s with mid-boom sheeting, Bimini tops and/or shoal draft are prone already), the increased pitching in swells and weather, and the likelihood of its either failing to come into the wind or coming into the wind too fast, then fine; it's your boat. And if you stay out of big blue seas, you may never have cause for much concern and may never even notice the changes enough to care. Fine then. But, as for me, if in a boat trimmed as yours is, when I came into rough weather (40-55 kts maybe), I would jettison the dinghy and the anchor really fast to save the ship. Yes; it could matter that much.

BTW-- I have an H25 and only wish I could store a rigid dinghy on deck. Looks like whatever I tow down the ICW to Florida will be sold there when I head across the Stream to the islands next year. :confused:
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ


Truth is, they have, and very much so. What I think you mean is that the boat seems to float level and doesn't appear to be out of trim under way. However, with the anchor (and sandbags!?) forward and the davits aft, you now have a very much increased tendency towards hobby-horsing and you've added significant weight to the precisely worst places to tolerate added weight: the ends.

I say this not to make you feel bad, but to educate you. Your first worry, that you may have untrimmed the boat, was correct; what you did to 'remedy' it was to merely spoil the boat's trim in the other direction, as though to compensate. If you don't mind the reduced speed, the increased heel (to which all H27s with mid-boom sheeting, Bimini tops and/or shoal draft are prone already), the increased pitching in swells and weather, and the likelihood of its either failing to come into the wind or coming into the wind too fast, then fine; it's your boat. And if you stay out of big blue seas, you may never have cause for much concern and may never even notice the changes enough to care. Fine then. But, as for me, if in a boat trimmed as yours is, when I came into rough weather (40-55 kts maybe), I would jettison the dinghy and the anchor really fast to save the ship. Yes; it could matter that much.

BTW-- I have an H25 and only wish I could store a rigid dinghy on deck. Looks like whatever I tow down the ICW to Florida will be sold there when I head across the Stream to the islands next year. :confused:
Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on the boats handling in rougher waters. If it is seriously affected I'll remove the weight and get a lighter dinghy. Maybe I'll be able to get away with only removing the weight. The dinghy only weighs a little less then a person and I have had my cockpit stuffed with so many people that water came up from the deck drains when under power through waves. Sailing was fine with all that weight so maybe I'm just being paranoid. I'll have to see in the spring when I re-launch the boat. Thank you very much for you advise, I'll be watching very closely for what you warned about. Out of curiosity, is there any other way to properly trim the boat?
 
Jan 22, 2008
358
Hunter 37-cutter Bradenton
One last thing to remember. How a boat looks at the dock doesn't have much to with how it looks underway with five people in the cockpit. At the dock, Midnight Sun looks bow down. Under sail with the racing crew aboard in their usual places, (3 in the cockpit, three on the rail) the boat is level. A little bow down is faster than stern heavy. On our boats (the 37,36, 33) it is measurable but not dramatic. In the 30 and 27, it gets dramatic. I used to sail a Catalina 27, and it would bleed off a knot if you put the transom in the water.
 
Jun 5, 2010
989
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Thanks for the heads up.... Out of curiosity, is there any other way to properly trim the boat?
Hey Stollo. :)

Keeping as much weight as possible out of the boat would be your first and best bet. The average production Hunter of this period is designed to float just high enough to absorb the typical gear for 4 or 5 people aboard and still float within a reasonable margin of her lines (on an H27 let's say about 3/4" or 1" high when empty). Adding any more than 4 people with about 50 lbs of gear each begins to make her too heavy, therefore sluggish (word here having definition of 'like a slug').

Your second move would be to concentrate as much as possible towards the center of the boat, preferably as close as possible to the center of gravity (down low, towards the centerline and in the middle fore-and-aft-wise). Keep as much as possible out of the ends. On my H25 I built two rode lockers further aft along the sides of the v-berth to keep the mostly-rope rodes out of the bows, which is now a really nice (and well-lit) dry locker. Under the v-berth is the (72 lbs full) holding tank. I have an internal fuel tank under the cockpit (72 lbs full). Other than these (which, I grant you, are not in the best places), everything else is closer to the keelbolts, especially the water (273 lbs full) and the batteries (120 lbs the pair) which are both within 18 inches of them.

If you can't do either of these, consider shifting weight in the boat from a stowed-when-in-port location to a stowed-when-sailing location. Large items, even anchors, can be stood in the cabin under the table or lashed to the sole or inboard faces of the bunks. Some racers have clamped the outboard motor to the compression column. Crew can be asked to sit about the bridge-deck area when sailing (especially in rough chop) or on the high-side settees below. (When we raced our Raider 33 we used to call this assignment 'Operation Lardball' --treating the big guys as ballast.)

Of all the Hunters he designed, the H27 was my dad's least favorite. I happen to like it; but I see his point. When compared to the slacker bilges of the H25 and especially to the positively lean ones of the Raider 33 (a similar hull shape to the H25), the H27 appears-- and will perform-- like a roly-poly bathtub toy. The hull is too round, too deep and too thick in the ends to perform well. Lower it further in the water and this tendency is exacerbated. That said, properly trimmed, properly sailed, a deep-draft H27 can still do really well, even win races consistently. These boats were all conceived as 'performance cruisers' (I don't think my dad knew how to design slow boats). As with any hull shape, rig and keel configuration, it's all down to how it's handled.

Stollo, you are wise to keep away from heavy weather with the boat configured like it is. Anyone with davits aft should anyway. And I know most people rarely encounter much more than an afternoon's worth of seriously sloppy conditions. But prudence suggests that you might consider relocating some necessary weight forward, to counterbalance the dinghy, such as putting a holding or water tank under the aft end of the v-berth or shifting batteries to the forward ends of the settees. Store your canned goods under the settees as well. Get as much as you can out of the lazarrette. (For Cherubini 44 owners we give the admonition: 'Don't add weight aft of Station 8.' --which means the mizzen step. None of my dad's boats like to squat in the rear.) Don't store anything at all in the dinghy. And please get rid of the sandbags! Adding weight to the end(s) merely to balance the boat is the worst thing, from a performance (and I don't mean merely fast racing ) standpoint, to try.

I didn't ask before; but are those davits aluminum or stainless? There might be weight savings in them alone. The H27 has a nicely-shaped counter transom; you could move the davits forward and let the dinghy overhang the deck a little. You could also acquire a lightweight dinghy.

I actually thought of davits for my boat; but I have an outboard and I tend to prefer the view aft, both at sea and when docking. The dinghy would have to be pretty dainty as I have that very narrow IOR-era transom too! :doh:
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ


Hey Stollo. :)

Keeping as much weight as possible out of the boat would be your first and best bet. The average production Hunter of this period is designed to float just high enough to absorb the typical gear for 4 or 5 people aboard and still float within a reasonable margin of her lines (on an H27 let's say about 3/4" or 1" high when empty). Adding any more than 4 people with about 50 lbs of gear each begins to make her too heavy, therefore sluggish (word here having definition of 'like a slug').

Your second move would be to concentrate as much as possible towards the center of the boat, preferably as close as possible to the center of gravity (down low, towards the centerline and in the middle fore-and-aft-wise). Keep as much as possible out of the ends. On my H25 I built two rode lockers further aft along the sides of the v-berth to keep the mostly-rope rodes out of the bows, which is now a really nice (and well-lit) dry locker. Under the v-berth is the (72 lbs full) holding tank. I have an internal fuel tank under the cockpit (72 lbs full). Other than these (which, I grant you, are not in the best places), everything else is closer to the keelbolts, especially the water (273 lbs full) and the batteries (120 lbs the pair) which are both within 18 inches of them.

If you can't do either of these, consider shifting weight in the boat from a stowed-when-in-port location to a stowed-when-sailing location. Large items, even anchors, can be stood in the cabin under the table or lashed to the sole or inboard faces of the bunks. Some racers have clamped the outboard motor to the compression column. Crew can be asked to sit about the bridge-deck area when sailing (especially in rough chop) or on the high-side settees below. (When we raced our Raider 33 we used to call this assignment 'Operation Lardball' --treating the big guys as ballast.)

Of all the Hunters he designed, the H27 was my dad's least favorite. I happen to like it; but I see his point. When compared to the slacker bilges of the H25 and especially to the positively lean ones of the Raider 33 (a similar hull shape to the H25), the H27 appears-- and will perform-- like a roly-poly bathtub toy. The hull is too round, too deep and too thick in the ends to perform well. Lower it further in the water and this tendency is exacerbated. That said, properly trimmed, properly sailed, a deep-draft H27 can still do really well, even win races consistently. These boats were all conceived as 'performance cruisers' (I don't think my dad knew how to design slow boats). As with any hull shape, rig and keel configuration, it's all down to how it's handled.

Stollo, you are wise to keep away from heavy weather with the boat configured like it is. Anyone with davits aft should anyway. And I know most people rarely encounter much more than an afternoon's worth of seriously sloppy conditions. But prudence suggests that you might consider relocating some necessary weight forward, to counterbalance the dinghy, such as putting a holding or water tank under the aft end of the v-berth or shifting batteries to the forward ends of the settees. Store your canned goods under the settees as well. Get as much as you can out of the lazarrette. (For Cherubini 44 owners we give the admonition: 'Don't add weight aft of Station 8.' --which means the mizzen step. None of my dad's boats like to squat in the rear.) Don't store anything at all in the dinghy. And please get rid of the sandbags! Adding weight to the end(s) merely to balance the boat is the worst thing, from a performance (and I don't mean merely fast racing ) standpoint, to try.

I didn't ask before; but are those davits aluminum or stainless? There might be weight savings in them alone. The H27 has a nicely-shaped counter transom; you could move the davits forward and let the dinghy overhang the deck a little. You could also acquire a lightweight dinghy.

I actually thought of davits for my boat; but I have an outboard and I tend to prefer the view aft, both at sea and when docking. The dinghy would have to be pretty dainty as I have that very narrow IOR-era transom too! :doh:

Thank you very much for your wonderful advice. The sandbags are now gone and I will be relocating my four marine batteries to center of the boat under the settees. I will also be removing the spare anchor that I am using as a counter weight. All of my batteries together weigh over 200 pounds so they should be a great balance for the dinghy at the center of the boat. I also have a 35 gallon water tank under the bow (I think its stock) that weighs close to 300 pounds when full. The dinghy only weighs about 60-70 pounds and the davits, which I made from aluminum, weigh about 50 pounds together with all their rigging installed. I also have a solar panel mounted on the top cross beams of the davits that weighs about 10 pounds. So everything hanging off the stern weighs about 130 pounds.

I think that by following your advice and moving my batteries to the center of the boat, plus the weight from the water tank, I will be able to balance my davits, dinghy, and four people nicely.

I do agree with you about the handling of the boat. In nice weather it is a pleasure to sail, and fast to, but when the seas get rough the boat does lose its composure a bit. Last weekend I was taking it to the marina for storage and the waves in the bay were approaching 4 ft. The boat got through it (eventually) but was tossed around like a rag doll and I couldn't do anything about it. Obviously the boat is not meant for blue water and I generally keep her in protected waters and only sail her when its nice out. I have ventured into the ocean once or twice but only when the conditions were absolutely ideal and even then I didn't stay out for long. I think there is a general perception that you need at least a 30ft sailboat to hold your own in the ocean, and I'm 3ft shy of that. I don't mind the bay though; its plenty windy, calm, and since I'm on the east coast I'm connected to the inter-coastal waterway which reaches from where I am in NJ to Miami Florida. I will never run out of cool places to sail.

Also, you refer to your dad as the one who designed my boat, and on your blog you reference your dad as the designer of your boat, as well as several others. Was your dad John Cherubini? That would blow my mind.
 
Jun 5, 2010
989
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Brick NJ

Was your dad John Cherubini? That would blow my mind.
Consider your mind blown. :dance:

I am glad to be of some help to you. I still think you've got a lot of weight in that boat! --but so long as it's safe and you like it that's all that matters.

BTW I do know where you are-- having worked in the Brick area last season-- and if you would like me to come put my eye on your boat I am more than happy to. You might owe me a cheesesteak and a beer though. ;)

If your boat has spent its life in Barnegat Bay than it was more than likely sold at the same dealership as was mine: Sails Aweigh, the *first* Hunter dealer, run by Dave Thompson on Mantoloking Road. It's now about wMantoloking Cove is-- I think. Dave's son, Dave Jr, ran John Eggers Sailmakers in South Amboy, the *original* Hunter sailmaker, till about two months ago when he closed it. He still does rigging and odds-and-ends (just not sails) in his own place. I have his number; he's a good guy with good heart and it's good karma to use him.

My blog (address below) details in some excruciating detail my (very slow) progress on the restoration of my own boat. I mean to take her down the ICW next autumn (
hopefully/probably a permanent relocation) but there is a major event planned for June 6-7 at Burlington. I'll provide details in these boards later; but it may finish up being something of a Cherubini/Hunter/Raider/Essex owner-and-aficionado homecoming (sail up to the dock!) with all sorts of goodies in the works. Consider yourself invited. :)
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ
Wow. This is what I love about these forums. I post a question about my boat and none other than the daughter of her designer responds to it. I would love for you to come and see my boat in the future and I'll be glad to buy you a cheese steak. I'll just need to finish restoring her before some one of your status, the daughter of one of the greatest naval architects of the late 20th century, lays eyes on her. I got most of my list crossed off, but I still need to repaint everything on the exterior before I'm done. I plan to do that over the winter and I'll let you know when I finish.

I read your blog and I found it very interesting and full of information. I especially like all the wood working you did in the main cabin. The boat looks really good and you did a fantastic job in restoring her. Im in the process of restoring my boat too and over the summer I was able to get most of the interior finished. I basically gutted it, and replaced the floor, wiring, plumbing, counter tops, various wood elements, lighting, the list goes on and on. I was planning on spacing it out more over time but once I started working on her I couldn't stop. Now with the boat out of the water I can turn my attention to the exterior paint, which needs to be re-done.

Thanks for the other info about the original Hunter dealer and about the man who ran the sail making shop in South Amboy. I'll be sure to look him up if I need him. I also think its neat that the original Hunter dealer was on Mantoloking road, which is only a short drive from where I keep my boat in Brick, NJ. I'll be sure to drive over to check the place out in the future. Thanks also for inviting me to the sailboating event this coming June. It sounds like a lot of fun and I'll be sure to attend. I'll be looking for the details you plan to post about it in the future.
 
Jan 7, 2012
112
Hunter 37C Lucaya, Grand Bahama
Stollo, John's the son of John Cherubini, his boats name is Diana of Burlington. I can see where there may be a misunderstanding as his blog is Diana's Blog.
John hope to see you down in the islands next year, I'll keep an eye on the blog for your progress.

Alex
 
Jun 5, 2010
989
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Looking forward to it, PilotToCopilot. I am aiming to depart the northern climes by about August 1st. As far as everything else... we'll see. :)
 
Apr 16, 2014
94
Hunter 27 Brick, NJ
Well I am embarrassed to say the least. DianaOfBurlington I do apologize for my mistake. I thought that your name was Diana and just figured that John Cherubini also had a daughter. I also on your blog there were a lot of references to "her" and "she" so I figured that was for you when it was really was for your boat. I feel like an idiot. I hope you can forget about this like I am trying to. I meant no disrespect.
 
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Jun 5, 2010
989
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Stollo in Brick

NP, Stollo. I get it a lot, actually. I just find it a little 'cuter' to use the boat name as an online ID, especially for boating places (I use several varieties). After all, the work is for the boat, not for me. I serve the boat (and so does the 1994 Cavalier with 345,000 miles on it; but that's another story).

In Roman mythology, Diana is the goddess of the hunt. She is an archer (Sagittarius-- though my boat is actually a Pisces), born of Zeus' head, not his loins, so she is more intellectual than sensual. She cavorts about the woods with no clothes on; but she is chaste. And she is inviolate due to being very quick-footed. She is the patron goddess of small animals and good little girls. The logo used as my avatar is Diana's 'personal' hull graphic and appears on her calling cards, stationery, boat bags and t-shirts. Also, the small-sized NJ license plate on the back of the folding bike reads DIANA. Most of the associated gear for the boat is flag blue, like her (Brightside) hull stripe.

Our original Cherubini 44-- the very first boat-- was called Diana till my uncle convinced my father to scrap it, use it as a plug for the mold, and go into business. Then my uncle sold it to a guy who turned it into a viable boat called Ecstasy-- with the same interior I helped design (when I was 15) --talk about cruel irony. Thus, my dad never got his own Cherubini 44, the one design masterpiece of his career. When he got a Hunter 25 in 1974 (a story related elsewhere in this site), we called it La Cacciatrice: Italian for 'The Huntress'. And, seeing as I have two daughters, calling my 1974 H25 'Diana' seemed a natural.

Diana is about 3 weeks older than La Cacciatrice. I last saw that boat in 2003 where it lay neglected at Worton Creek, NJ-- I'd have bought it if I hadn't acquired Diana first. :cry: I did manage to scavenge a mainsheet tackle and a winch handle from that to-be-scrapped boat for use, in memorium, on Diana.