Bad Bottom Paint Job

[Levin]

Hello all,

Recently I got myself a new diving service because I felt the old diver I had cleaning the bottom of my boat had really bad customer service (would never leave tags when he cleaned, didn't respond to E-mails, etc). Anyway I have been very happy with my new diving service (Wing's Diving Service in San Diego in case anyone wants a good diver) but what I haven't been happy with is the video he sent me before he cleaned my boat for the first time.

It seems that my new bottom pain job (that I just had done last September and which has only been cleaned now twice) is already starting to completely flake off. Bellow I have the link to the video my diver sent me so you all can take a look at it and tell me what you think. Do you have any idea what would cause this? One of the worst places is the bottom of keel for this and I was wondering if this has to do with the fact that they didn't paint this until the day they were going to launch the boat and then they only painted it after they got it in the cradle as it had been resting on this for the whole of the time it was in the yard and they couldn't paint it until then. I remember I asked them if this would be a problem and they said "No, the paint will dry on the way over to the water and then it will keep drying in the water" (which didn't sound right to me, but what did I know).

Anyway if I could feedback from everyone on what they think about this I would really appreciate it... perhaps this is normal after six months in the water but it just seems like the yard did something wrong.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH12VIeIzzE&feature=email

Take care,
-Levin

 

[jimg]

Painting the bottom of the keel right before launching is a common procedure in SoCal boatyards. I have personally never had a problem with this method. It is hard to place blame in your case without knowing the specific paint used and the prep work performed (the main reason I always do it myself). It seems to me that the bottom should not have fouled that badly that quickly with new paint, but in San Diego even with good paint you absolutely must have a monthly cleaning service so that it never gets that fouled to begin with.

 

[Steve Dion]

Levin:

Depending on the paint that you are using there are different dry times before relaunching. I would check the mfg specs and see what they recommend.

Did your diver give you an "after" video of the bottom?

 

[Ed Schenck]

Hard to tell from the video but to me it looked like the issues are with the keel and the rudder. Did you see hull flaking? Lead keels really need special treatment depending upon the paint that was used. Not sure why the rudder would be different than the hull.

 

[LuzSD]

I think San Diego is a terrible place to find a good diver. We have had 5 in 4 years and we litterally went from bad too worse, then to horendous and finally to great. We use Art Stephien now and are so so happy. He does what he says he is going to do and gives us accurate feedback. A trusted diver is essential.

 

[Levin]

Hello again,

Thanks for some of the replies. No, I didn't see any hull flaking and it seems like the problems are limited to the metal parts that got painted (keel and strut). I also went back and looked at old photos I took when the boat was first pulled out before they painted it and it looks like it is beginning to have problems in the exact same places it did before (that back left part of the keel on the wing was down to nearly metal when they pulled it out of the water).

Do you think they did something wrong in painting these metal bits since they are having such a problem with flaking? The rest of the boat seems fine (including the rudder which has some growth on it but is not flaking paint) but these two metal parts really seem to have a problem.

Again any ideas would really be appreciated. If I go back and talk to the yard I want was hoping to go in there informed with an idea of what might have caused the problem.

Thanks again,
-Levin

 

[LuzSD]

Levin, curious about a couple things:
1. what yard you used
2. why you did not have the bottom done monthly between Sept and now
3. What does your diver say? What's his opinion?
4. How did everything look when it was all done, just before splash?

We used Shelter Island BY to do our bottom, change keel bolts, work on stuffing box and do some boot stripe painting etc. I got to see and feel everything before it splashed and I would feel as you do if it was chipping and flaking as it appears in your video. We had a couple issues after we got her back and I immediately went back to SIBY with all of our concerns......and ultimately everything was addressed and fixed if needed. I would think your video speaks for itself, and the boatyard should give you some good feedback as to what's going on. I also am interested in an after video once your diver finished his job. Good luck, this must feel very discouraging.

 

[Levin]

Hello again,

I used Knight & Carver Boatyard which isn't too far away from Pier 32 where I keep my boat. I had used Shelter Island in the past but I had some people tell me good things about Knight & Carver and they seemed to have a really good price so I went with them.

I didn't have my boat cleaned for about four months after I got it painted because you are supposed to give the paint about this much time to let it "setup properly" or so I was told. I had it cleaned twice by the old diving service before the video was made and I worried that they might have caused this problem by improper cleaning, but then the diver demostrates in his video that the paint just flakes off with even the slightest of touch, so I don't think it was the old diver's fault. Also it only seems to be a problem in the metal parts under the boat so I am figuring that it has something to do with getting the paint to bind to this. Actually at this point I'm wondering if they didn't sand these parts properly as they were pretty rough when they came out of the water. Inproper preperation on these areas could have lead to the difficulites.

Anyway if anyone else has any thoughts I would love to hear them. Thanks everyone for giving me some input.

-Levin

 

[Ed A]

There is a lot of wierd advice being given here. Call the paint manufacturer. determine what paint was already there. discuss it with the rep from the paint company and he can give you information that pertains directly to you problem.

It sounds to me like one of the following.
A. incompatable paint, but why is peeling off in just a few areas?
B. improber prep. the boat was not clean and prepaired to paint.
C. old product.

It will have to be stripped down to fix the problem. could be expensive.

 

[KMm]

I'm a retired contractor/painter, Paint bubbles like that if the sub surface is not prepared correctly, two ways, first not all the old paint is removed. The keel bottom and the rudder seem to often have areas that are missed. Poor Paint is seldom the reason. Second, small gel coat blisters will cause paint to crack and let water behind the paint. Third, sadly, not cleaning the bottom every month in SoCal waters in the kiss of doom to new bottom paint. That powder that came off those bubbles when you broke them is from sea critters building a condo. It wasn't a big problem when they let us put lead in the paint. Then you could get 5 years or more out of a bottom job. I just saw the part about the metal being rough. Have you checked the zinks? Is the surface badly pitted, this could cause the paint to flake.

 

[catsailor]

Common practice...

... but here on the Chesapeake Bay we pollish the bottom of the keel on the mud so often I couldn't say if it was a paint problem. There is never any paint left there when I haul!

 

[Levin]

Hello all...

So it is sounding more and more like the problem came from improper prep done when the boat was in the yard. I have attached a couple of pictures of the keel and the strut that were taken before they painted the boat when it was out of the water. This makes me believe that these areas were not properly treated. You can also notice on the keel where it is down to bare metal on the back port side. This is the exact same spot where it seems that the paint is already beginning to come off of the keel now.

Take a look and tell me what you think.

​

 

[Velero49]

What year is your hunter?

 

[fstbttms]

A few comments from a professional hull cleaner:

1.- The flaking paint is almost certainly do to poor preparation.

2.- 90 days is the recommended wait time after splashing to do the first cleaning. But not because the paint needs to "set up". This is a wive's tale. Anti fouling paint is good to go from Day One. The reason you do not clean for 3 months is because the bottom likely does not need to be cleaned. Copper leaching spikes for appox. 90 days after the boat goes into the water, typically negating the need for cleaning.

3.- Boy, that upside down video orientation is annoying!

 

[Levin]

Hello again everyone,

So I have a bit of an update. I went to the boat yard that did my work yesterday to talk to them about all of this and show them the video my diver sent me (I actually just had them navigate to this thread since everything is now here). Anyway, first off they were really shocked that I had an underwater video showing how badly my bottom paint is wearing. I think they aren't used to people coming in with this and were surprised I knew what was going on with the work they did. I guess if no one is ever going to see how well your work holds up (as is often the case with bottom paint) then it probably is less important to do a good job.

Anyhow, I talked to them about it and they said they would pull the boat back out of the water in a few weeks at no charge and see if they could figure out what the problem is. They also said they would fix the work at no charge, if (and this part is important) after looking at it they determined that it was their fault and not a problem with how the boat was commissioned. The owner of the boatyard (at least that is who I think I was talking with- he seemed to act like he owned the place) seemed to think that the real problem was the fact that when Hunter initially set up my boat that they didn't do it right and therefore no bottom paint will ever stick to my boat. He said if this is determined to be the problem (which mind you he is telling me he will determine when the boat is pulled out) then he will not cover the work because it isn't his fault and then it's up to me to pay to get it fixed.

Now call my cynical if you want... but who here thinks there is anything less than about a 100% chance that when the boat is pulled out that this guy will blame it on "improper setup at the factory"?

When I think about it the explanation that the factory set things up wrong or didn't prepare the bottom correctly doesn't seem very logical. As you can see from my pictures above (which were taken after the boat was hauled out but before they painted it) even after five years in the water my boat was still holding on to its bottom paint except for in a few spots. If the bottom wasn't set up properly wouldn't it be losing it from all over the place?

Anyway if anyone could help me come up with some facts as to what I would expect to see if the bottom wasn’t prepared properly from the factory vs. what I would expect to see if they didn't properly sand and prepare the bottom for painting I would really appreciate it. I am almost certain that no matter what is found this guy will blame it on the factory and I just want to be prepared to argue with facts so I can try to get them to cover their work if it was their fault.

Thanks for the help,
-Levin

 

[fstbttms]

Now call my cynical if you want... but who here thinks there is anything less than about a 100% chance that when the boat is pulled out that this guy will blame it on "improper setup at the factory"?

Well, that would be SOP for a boatyard. Deny, deny, deny.

 

[LuzSD]

If you mentioned this site and got your video viewable for them via this site, don't you think they would want to follow this thread to stay a step ahead of you?

When I saw your "before" pictures I was struck by the fact that in some cases they looked better than your video of the after. That can't be normal!

I think if it were us, we'd take along someone who is very knowledgable, maybe from another BY, your diver, a surveyor, someone who when they pull then boat again can speak welll to their claims if that is the way it goes. my 2 cents.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Levin, reply #13 asked you what year your boat is. Since you're talking about issues related to "factory setup" it seems important to know if you bought the boat new. If the boat was previously owned, wouldn't one think the yard's claim about "factory setup" had some hot air in it? Please help us understand how any factory issues could be part of this ordeal.

 

[Levin]

Hello again...

My boat is a 2000 model year Hunter 340. I did not buy the boat new, but it only had one other owner before me (I bought it in 2005). I really don't think that there is a problem with how they set the boat up from the factory or the paint would be falling off all over the place... but it just seems to be coming off from the keel and the strut. Which if you look at my pictures are the two places where there was the most wear when it was pulled out of the water. This leads me to believe that they just didn't prep these areas right and just threw paint over them… hence the problems I’m having now.

BTW... as I have mentioned before those pictures are from after my boat was pulled out of the water and power washed after 5 years in the water. That's a long time to go between bottom paintings and I thought the paint (which was done at Shelter Island BY not Knight & Carver) was in pretty good shape considering. If there was a huge problem with how the boat was set up from the factory wouldn't I have expected it to be in worse shape?

Anyway thanks so much for your continued thoughts on this...

-Levin

P.S. to LuzSD... I am fine if they are following this thread... perhaps it will encourage them to do the right thing and fix their mistake. Might be a bit to hope for I realize but we can all dream right?

 

[RichH]

To expand Ed A's posting (#9):
The problem could be as simple as:
1. too much ablative paint build up and the initial coats are now losing their adhesion. Happens a lot when ablatives become 'thick'.

I see this on my boats when the ablative coating thickness over the years builds to over ~0.040" (and I 'hot coat' my boats with bottom paint when barrier coating)... and the bottom paint starts 'flaking' off. Remedy is to aggressively 'power wash', etc., fill the divits, and start over (about every 7-10 years).

2. Improper mold release removal when the boat was new ... and the very first bottom paint coatings have reacted with the remaining 'mold release' compounds ... and the intial coats probably had poor adhesion from the start.

I dont think this is a 'yard produced problem' ... I think its either TOO MUCH applied ablative or an initial (when new) 'prep' problem.