I've got a 1985 hunter 23, centerboard keel. I was messing around with my adjustable backstay, and I've noticed that it doesnt seem to actually work. It puts lots of tension on the backstay, but rather than bend the mast, it just seems to pull the sag out of the forestay (caused by the fureld genoa) and rake the mast. Yesterday, I noticed when pulled taught, the side shrouds (swept-back spreaders) all seemed to slacken noticeably. When I set the rig up, the side shrouds are all around 300 lb of tension. I couldn't get a gauge to the forestay, and the backstay is never more than taught until I pull on the adjuster. Just trying to pull some draft out of the mainsail for heavier air - she sails beautifully in the 15 knot stuff!
backstay adjusters and forestay sag
- Thread starter Brian M H23
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Backstay adjuster
Brian: There are 2 mainsail sail trim controls for draft depth (belly) and they are the outhaul and mast bend. Mast bend is not an option on your boat. As you've indicated you can only rake your mast. If you could bend your mast to look like this < ) > then you would pull the fullness out of the middle of the sail thus flattening it. See other posts on mast rake. When you rake your actually inducing weather helm, which is not the effect you desired. If it were me I'd forget about the backstay adjuster altogether.
Brian: There are 2 mainsail sail trim controls for draft depth (belly) and they are the outhaul and mast bend. Mast bend is not an option on your boat. As you've indicated you can only rake your mast. If you could bend your mast to look like this < ) > then you would pull the fullness out of the middle of the sail thus flattening it. See other posts on mast rake. When you rake your actually inducing weather helm, which is not the effect you desired. If it were me I'd forget about the backstay adjuster altogether.
I'm afraid I...
...must disagree with you Don. The rig on the 23 is fractional and the mast is easily bent with a backstay adjuster though it does appear that two different mast sections were used. One appears to have a thinner and taper mast while the other is untapered and thicker. The spreaders are only slightly swept aft. Of course, when the backstay is applied, the cap shrouds will loose some of their tension but if they are going slack that only indicates that they weren't sufficiently tensioned in the first place. Bending the mast is the single biggest way to flatten and de-power the main without giving up point and boat speed. Brian, I would suggest that your rig was probably not tensioned enough and I would increase the power in your backstay to make the adjustment easier for you.
...must disagree with you Don. The rig on the 23 is fractional and the mast is easily bent with a backstay adjuster though it does appear that two different mast sections were used. One appears to have a thinner and taper mast while the other is untapered and thicker. The spreaders are only slightly swept aft. Of course, when the backstay is applied, the cap shrouds will loose some of their tension but if they are going slack that only indicates that they weren't sufficiently tensioned in the first place. Bending the mast is the single biggest way to flatten and de-power the main without giving up point and boat speed. Brian, I would suggest that your rig was probably not tensioned enough and I would increase the power in your backstay to make the adjustment easier for you.
Backstay Adjuster
Alan, Looking at the fairly light mast section on a frac rigged Hunter 23 in our marina, I'd agree with the likelyhood of inducing mast bend rather than all rake. The 8:1 + split backstay adjuster on my masthead Hunter 28.5 does a great job of bending the double spreader B&R masthead rig and really flatens the main. However, I had the sailmaker visit the boat and record measurements of the existing prebend and then the full-on backstay tensioned position. The resulting mainsail shape is a perfect fit to the boat and the backstay adjuster is fast and easy to use to depower the main. On certain boats like the old C&C 34's the O'Day 34 and the Catalina 30's the mast section is a telephone pole by comparison and seems only to rake back and tighten the headstay.
Alan, Looking at the fairly light mast section on a frac rigged Hunter 23 in our marina, I'd agree with the likelyhood of inducing mast bend rather than all rake. The 8:1 + split backstay adjuster on my masthead Hunter 28.5 does a great job of bending the double spreader B&R masthead rig and really flatens the main. However, I had the sailmaker visit the boat and record measurements of the existing prebend and then the full-on backstay tensioned position. The resulting mainsail shape is a perfect fit to the boat and the backstay adjuster is fast and easy to use to depower the main. On certain boats like the old C&C 34's the O'Day 34 and the Catalina 30's the mast section is a telephone pole by comparison and seems only to rake back and tighten the headstay.
My mast section
seems exceptionally large for a 23..in fact, i am right next to a hunter 240, and I think my mast is twice the diameter than his! my mast is of an oval-esque cross section, it would fit in a rectangular box of 5.5" x 3.5" . Also, all my shroads pull back on the mast, so tightening them doesn't provide any resitance to raking the mast backwards. i think the trick is to get more forestay tension somehow..i'm just not sure on that yet!
seems exceptionally large for a 23..in fact, i am right next to a hunter 240, and I think my mast is twice the diameter than his! my mast is of an oval-esque cross section, it would fit in a rectangular box of 5.5" x 3.5" . Also, all my shroads pull back on the mast, so tightening them doesn't provide any resitance to raking the mast backwards. i think the trick is to get more forestay tension somehow..i'm just not sure on that yet!
Brian
You are confusing mast rake with headstay tension. Mast rake is only set by adjusting the length of the headstay. The tension in the headstay is set by the cap shrouds and backstay. If you want increased headstay tension you tighten the shrouds and/or backstay. If you need to change mast rake you change the length of the headstay. One has nothing to do with the other.
You are confusing mast rake with headstay tension. Mast rake is only set by adjusting the length of the headstay. The tension in the headstay is set by the cap shrouds and backstay. If you want increased headstay tension you tighten the shrouds and/or backstay. If you need to change mast rake you change the length of the headstay. One has nothing to do with the other.
my santana 27 has 8 stays
to the head 1 fore 1 aft 2 sides to the spreaders 2 center mast (one on each side) 2 ahead of center (this i presume is for bending the mast for tuning the mainsail)
to the head 1 fore 1 aft 2 sides to the spreaders 2 center mast (one on each side) 2 ahead of center (this i presume is for bending the mast for tuning the mainsail)
I guess i need to clarify
what it is i'm trying to resolve. I beleive I need to make my forestay tighter - the weight of the rolled-up jib gives it a sag. However, my side shrouds are all tightened to where I want them to be and the mast is raked where I want it - sitting at the dock. When I pull the backstay tight, the forestay un-sags, the mast leans back quite a bit, and never really gets much bend to it.
what it is i'm trying to resolve. I beleive I need to make my forestay tighter - the weight of the rolled-up jib gives it a sag. However, my side shrouds are all tightened to where I want them to be and the mast is raked where I want it - sitting at the dock. When I pull the backstay tight, the forestay un-sags, the mast leans back quite a bit, and never really gets much bend to it.
Rig sounds too loose
Brian- I agree with Alan. It sounds like your shrouds are too loose - unless you have a modified forestay somehow from the installation of the furling system. Tensioning the uppers to take out "some" of the forestay sag is what you need to do and tension the lowers to keep the mast straight as you tension the uppers. Then control the rest of the sag with the backstay. But you have to be careful on a fractional rig with the use of a backstay adjuster. And that is all relative to the settings on your shrouds. In heavier air you should have a tighter rig altogether - so that you can apply backstay without overbending the rig. By overtightening the backstay you compress the mast and the net effect is a looser forstay and more sag. So many people think that they are depowering the rig by applying all this backstay tension in the heavy air and actually power up the genoa not knowing it. When you apply the backstay, keep an eye on the genoa and if you see the forestay getting looser, ease up on the backstay tension some, and live with it. Or drop your sails and tighten up your shrouds some more. Primarily, the lower shrouds will keep the middle of the mast from bending too far foward and allow the backstay tension to have a better effect. Good luck.
Brian- I agree with Alan. It sounds like your shrouds are too loose - unless you have a modified forestay somehow from the installation of the furling system. Tensioning the uppers to take out "some" of the forestay sag is what you need to do and tension the lowers to keep the mast straight as you tension the uppers. Then control the rest of the sag with the backstay. But you have to be careful on a fractional rig with the use of a backstay adjuster. And that is all relative to the settings on your shrouds. In heavier air you should have a tighter rig altogether - so that you can apply backstay without overbending the rig. By overtightening the backstay you compress the mast and the net effect is a looser forstay and more sag. So many people think that they are depowering the rig by applying all this backstay tension in the heavy air and actually power up the genoa not knowing it. When you apply the backstay, keep an eye on the genoa and if you see the forestay getting looser, ease up on the backstay tension some, and live with it. Or drop your sails and tighten up your shrouds some more. Primarily, the lower shrouds will keep the middle of the mast from bending too far foward and allow the backstay tension to have a better effect. Good luck.
Problems with Questions
It is difficult to diagnois a sail trim problem when all you have to work with is 6 sentences. Normally, I don't comment on what I don't know and I try to be very careful with my answers as some sailors go to the bank with what I say and I don't want to disapoint them. Brian indicated he could not bend the mast and that when he tightens the back stay it tightens the forestay. That sounded to me that all he could do is rake the mast and not bend it to look like this < ) >. Let me restate my position. If you can BEND your mast to look like the diagram you are flattening the sail by taking slack out of the belly. If you can only RAKE the mast then your wasting your time if your attempting to flatten the sail because you "ain't" flattening the sail by raking the mast and for that reason I suggest you not waste your time with the backstay adjuster because your not getting the effect you desire (to flatten the sail). Additionally, I rarely comment on rigging problems because that also "ain't" my bag. I leave that to more knowledgeable mates on this forum.
It is difficult to diagnois a sail trim problem when all you have to work with is 6 sentences. Normally, I don't comment on what I don't know and I try to be very careful with my answers as some sailors go to the bank with what I say and I don't want to disapoint them. Brian indicated he could not bend the mast and that when he tightens the back stay it tightens the forestay. That sounded to me that all he could do is rake the mast and not bend it to look like this < ) >. Let me restate my position. If you can BEND your mast to look like the diagram you are flattening the sail by taking slack out of the belly. If you can only RAKE the mast then your wasting your time if your attempting to flatten the sail because you "ain't" flattening the sail by raking the mast and for that reason I suggest you not waste your time with the backstay adjuster because your not getting the effect you desire (to flatten the sail). Additionally, I rarely comment on rigging problems because that also "ain't" my bag. I leave that to more knowledgeable mates on this forum.
Thanks!
I think I know what's going on..I think my forestay is too long after the roller furling modification. Nearly all the turnbuckle slack is taken up already. However, the saving grace - the 6" extender on the chainplate. I'm going to replace this with a 3-4" extender, back the turnbuckle all the way out, and start over. Thanks!
I think I know what's going on..I think my forestay is too long after the roller furling modification. Nearly all the turnbuckle slack is taken up already. However, the saving grace - the 6" extender on the chainplate. I'm going to replace this with a 3-4" extender, back the turnbuckle all the way out, and start over. Thanks!
with a fractional rig
your going to have a very tough time bending the mast without breaking something else. i think your on the right track with shortening the fore stay and eliminating some of the weather helm that should be for easier sailing
your going to have a very tough time bending the mast without breaking something else. i think your on the right track with shortening the fore stay and eliminating some of the weather helm that should be for easier sailing
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