I have a 2003 Beneteau 473 with OEM forward Jabsco 37010 electric macerating head and aft Jabsco 29090-2000 manual head. I have installed the rebuild kits on both, replaced the pump assembly on the aft, replaced the entire aft head twice, replaced the joker valves on both, replaced the bottom seal on the aft, and had an excellent boat mechanic help me with some of the work. I have insured the vent lines/valves are clear on both holding tanks. I purchased and read Peggie Hall's excellent book. My mechanic called Jabsco directly on several occasions. The final answer from Jabsco: "Is this a Beneteau? You cannot use these Jabsco heads in the Beneteau. You'll never cure the problem." The problem developed in the third year of use: backfill into both toilets with the boat stationary or moving, with any valves in the system open. I have to use the head with the Y-valve and through hulls set in the desired positions, as appropriate depending upon circumstances, then after attempting to clear all lines with abundant flushing action, close all through-hulls and leave the Y-valve on "Sea" between uses of the heads, in order to reduce the risk of backfill from either of the two discharge lines. In frustration, last month I finally replaced the aft head with a Raritan PHII manual head. The aft head is now fine, with no backfill problems. I have been planning to replace the forward head with a Raritan SeaEra, until I just discovered that it costs no more than the OEM Jabsco 37010, and the exploded parts view looks similar. The PHII is more expensive and seems much higher quality than the OEM Jabsco manual 29090. I am afraid to spend too little money on the SeaEra and not cure the problem. Please offer suggestions on a better choice for the forward electric head replacement. I don't mind spending $1,000. I just want it to work properly. Thank you.
Backfilling while stationary
- Thread starter Gary Eglinton
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Go with the Raritan SeaEra
It was deliberately designed to be a much higher quality, more durable upgrade "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco 370xx series macerating electric toilets. It was in development for more than 5 years, has been on the 7-8 years...and in that time I've yet to hear from--or hear OF--anyone who has one who doesn't love it. So why doesn't cost any more than the Jabsco 37010? Maybe because Jabsco raised the price to make theirs seem to be equal quality?
The exploded drawing parts may look similar at first glance, but there are definite differences. For one thing, the SeaEra's intake pump is a diaphragm pump that can survive running dry...the Jabsco has an impeller that not only can't, but is also in a location that requires taking the whole pump/motor assembly apart to replace it.
However, you do NOT want the electric version of the PH II--the PHE II. 'Cuz the only thing the motor does is replace the pump HANDLE...it does not replace the pump. It's still a manual toilet, but now instead of pumping it yourself the motor does it for you--but not nearly as well as doing it manually. The Jabsco 29020 conversion is an even worse choice. It does actually replace the pump, but it draws a whopping 24 amps/flush, makes enough noise to wake the dead and is highly clog/failure prone.
When installed, operated and maintained according to directions, the SeaEra will perform flawlessly and reliably for at least a decade without any maintenance whatever.
It was deliberately designed to be a much higher quality, more durable upgrade "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco 370xx series macerating electric toilets. It was in development for more than 5 years, has been on the 7-8 years...and in that time I've yet to hear from--or hear OF--anyone who has one who doesn't love it. So why doesn't cost any more than the Jabsco 37010? Maybe because Jabsco raised the price to make theirs seem to be equal quality?
The exploded drawing parts may look similar at first glance, but there are definite differences. For one thing, the SeaEra's intake pump is a diaphragm pump that can survive running dry...the Jabsco has an impeller that not only can't, but is also in a location that requires taking the whole pump/motor assembly apart to replace it.
However, you do NOT want the electric version of the PH II--the PHE II. 'Cuz the only thing the motor does is replace the pump HANDLE...it does not replace the pump. It's still a manual toilet, but now instead of pumping it yourself the motor does it for you--but not nearly as well as doing it manually. The Jabsco 29020 conversion is an even worse choice. It does actually replace the pump, but it draws a whopping 24 amps/flush, makes enough noise to wake the dead and is highly clog/failure prone.
When installed, operated and maintained according to directions, the SeaEra will perform flawlessly and reliably for at least a decade without any maintenance whatever.
Peggie, thank you
I had seen a prior reply from you about the PHEII, so I knew not to do that. I will order the SeaEra today. Your advice gives me the confidence to proceed. Your selfless devotion to helping all of us with marine sanitation problems is a wonderful contribution to society. Thank you again.
I had seen a prior reply from you about the PHEII, so I knew not to do that. I will order the SeaEra today. Your advice gives me the confidence to proceed. Your selfless devotion to helping all of us with marine sanitation problems is a wonderful contribution to society. Thank you again.
Replacement for Jabsco 29090-2000
Gary and I appear to have the same problem with backfilling. I have a C42 that is less than one year old and the forward head is constantly backfilling whether the boat is moving or not. It seems that no matter how long I pump in the dry position and/or follow up with wet flushing the bowl still fills with brown water.
You told Gary that the Raritan PH II was "designed to be a much higher quality, more durable upgrade "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco 370xx series macerating electric toilets". I have the Jabsco 29090-2000 toilets. What would be the model to use to replace them? Also, what type of hoses should I use since I have a problem with intake water odor and I also suspect that I should replace the large hose from toilet to holding tank since wet flushing does not result in clean backfill. I also noticed that there is no high loop in the large hose that leads from toilet to the holding tank. This would be hard to do with the tight tolerances. Is this essential to prevent backfilling?
On a seperate but related subject my tank monitors do not seem to work because they do not go down past half-full anymore. My broker tells me that this is a problem with tank monitors that use electronic resistance to measure tank volume because the sides of the tank become coated in time and that confuses the electronic monitors. Do you agree?
Gary and I appear to have the same problem with backfilling. I have a C42 that is less than one year old and the forward head is constantly backfilling whether the boat is moving or not. It seems that no matter how long I pump in the dry position and/or follow up with wet flushing the bowl still fills with brown water.
You told Gary that the Raritan PH II was "designed to be a much higher quality, more durable upgrade "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco 370xx series macerating electric toilets". I have the Jabsco 29090-2000 toilets. What would be the model to use to replace them? Also, what type of hoses should I use since I have a problem with intake water odor and I also suspect that I should replace the large hose from toilet to holding tank since wet flushing does not result in clean backfill. I also noticed that there is no high loop in the large hose that leads from toilet to the holding tank. This would be hard to do with the tight tolerances. Is this essential to prevent backfilling?
On a seperate but related subject my tank monitors do not seem to work because they do not go down past half-full anymore. My broker tells me that this is a problem with tank monitors that use electronic resistance to measure tank volume because the sides of the tank become coated in time and that confuses the electronic monitors. Do you agree?
Not the PH II, the SeaEra
The PH II is a manual toilet...the SeaEra is a macerating electric toilet that's a replacement for the Jabsco 37xxx series.
Your toilet is a manual toilet. If you want to convert to electric (the SeaEra), you'll have to replace the whole thing...or at least everything but the bowl, seat and lid, which you can do with the "conversion." If you want to stick with a manual toilet, the PH II is by far the best choice...or the PHC, which is the same pump, but on a compact base with a shorter pump handle to fit in a tighter space.
You said, "Also, what type of hoses should I use since I have a problem with intake water odor..."
New hoses won't cure that. Stagnant sea water trapped in the head intake is gonna stink just as much when it comes into the bowl from a new intake hose as it does from the old one.
"...and I also suspect that I should replace the large hose from toilet to holding tank since wet flushing does not result in clean backfill."
A new hose won't cure that either. But flushing longer in the dry mode will certainly help!
Is a high loop essential to preventing backflow? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
If waste in the tank spills into the head discharge hose when the boat is heeled, a loop will prevent it from getting back to the toilet. However, relocating the inlet fitting on the tank is a better solution IMO, and not that hard to do.
If the tank is higher than the toilet and it's a continuous uphill run from the toilet to the tank, a loop can help...especially if the tank is more than about 6' from the toilet. But if the tank is within 6' of the toilet, it prob'ly isn't necessary...'cuz any manual toilet that's working anywhere near factory spec can move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so flushing longer in the dry mode is the solution.
You MIGHT want to check out the link below...it'll take you to a comprehensive "marine sanitation systems 101" manual that should help you understand how to operate and maintain a trouble free system.
About your tank monitor: the broker is wrong. External senders can read through an inch of fiberglass, so a film on the insider of the tank certainly won't "confuse" it. I suspect you have a wiring problem. If your system is one of the Snake River systems that Hunter installed, they have a very high failure rate 'cuz Hunter didn't install 'em correctly. It's fixable without costing much. Call Dennis Ferriello...the components for their Profile gauges http://ferriellosales.com/default.php are interchangeable with SR and are also compatible with Wema.
The PH II is a manual toilet...the SeaEra is a macerating electric toilet that's a replacement for the Jabsco 37xxx series.
Your toilet is a manual toilet. If you want to convert to electric (the SeaEra), you'll have to replace the whole thing...or at least everything but the bowl, seat and lid, which you can do with the "conversion." If you want to stick with a manual toilet, the PH II is by far the best choice...or the PHC, which is the same pump, but on a compact base with a shorter pump handle to fit in a tighter space.
You said, "Also, what type of hoses should I use since I have a problem with intake water odor..."
New hoses won't cure that. Stagnant sea water trapped in the head intake is gonna stink just as much when it comes into the bowl from a new intake hose as it does from the old one.
"...and I also suspect that I should replace the large hose from toilet to holding tank since wet flushing does not result in clean backfill."
A new hose won't cure that either. But flushing longer in the dry mode will certainly help!
Is a high loop essential to preventing backflow? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
If waste in the tank spills into the head discharge hose when the boat is heeled, a loop will prevent it from getting back to the toilet. However, relocating the inlet fitting on the tank is a better solution IMO, and not that hard to do.
If the tank is higher than the toilet and it's a continuous uphill run from the toilet to the tank, a loop can help...especially if the tank is more than about 6' from the toilet. But if the tank is within 6' of the toilet, it prob'ly isn't necessary...'cuz any manual toilet that's working anywhere near factory spec can move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so flushing longer in the dry mode is the solution.
You MIGHT want to check out the link below...it'll take you to a comprehensive "marine sanitation systems 101" manual that should help you understand how to operate and maintain a trouble free system.
About your tank monitor: the broker is wrong. External senders can read through an inch of fiberglass, so a film on the insider of the tank certainly won't "confuse" it. I suspect you have a wiring problem. If your system is one of the Snake River systems that Hunter installed, they have a very high failure rate 'cuz Hunter didn't install 'em correctly. It's fixable without costing much. Call Dennis Ferriello...the components for their Profile gauges http://ferriellosales.com/default.php are interchangeable with SR and are also compatible with Wema.
Thanks Peggy
I do intend to stick with a manual head so I guess the PH II is the one. I will check dimensions but I think I have plenty of room.
I know it is normal for sea water in the intake hose to smell for the first few flushes and I would usually take care of this problem by just wet flushing for a while before having guests on board and the problem was solved. That does not seem to work anymore and the clear hoses show a black build up on the intake hose. I seem to recall that in a previous post somewhere you suggested changing out the cheap hoses that came on Catalinas with a different type becasue the odors would permeate the cheap hoses. Is that correct and if so what type of hose should I use for the intake water.
My holding take is quite close to the head so it looks like I can leave the large hose in place when I install a new Raritan. That is very good news. The smaller hoses would be easy to replace due to good access. Are the hose sizes for the Raritan PH II the same as those for the Jabsco?
I do plan to order your book before I begin this task.
I do intend to stick with a manual head so I guess the PH II is the one. I will check dimensions but I think I have plenty of room.
I know it is normal for sea water in the intake hose to smell for the first few flushes and I would usually take care of this problem by just wet flushing for a while before having guests on board and the problem was solved. That does not seem to work anymore and the clear hoses show a black build up on the intake hose. I seem to recall that in a previous post somewhere you suggested changing out the cheap hoses that came on Catalinas with a different type becasue the odors would permeate the cheap hoses. Is that correct and if so what type of hose should I use for the intake water.
My holding take is quite close to the head so it looks like I can leave the large hose in place when I install a new Raritan. That is very good news. The smaller hoses would be easy to replace due to good access. Are the hose sizes for the Raritan PH II the same as those for the Jabsco?
I do plan to order your book before I begin this task.
Intake hoses etc
If your head intake hose and tank vent line are clear plastic, replace 'em. Intake hoses rarely permeate, but who needs to look at the molds and algae that build up in it? You'll need a slightly longer intake hose than your current one, 'cuz the inlet fitting is on the back of the Jabsco manual, at the front of the PH II. Tank vent line DOES permeate, even sanitation hose. Clear water hose permeates even faster. Use Shields or Trident #148 for both these hoses.
Your description of the odor and black crud in your intake line raises the question of whether your "brown backflow" is actually BACKflow, and not flush water rising in the bowl to the waterline. If there's no vented loop in the intake, that'll definitely happen if the toilet is in the wet mode...and, since the wet/dry cams in Jabscos have a high failure rate, CAN also happen when the lever is in the dry mode 'cuz the lever isn't moving the cam any more. I strongly recommend that you install a vented loop in the PH II intake...it belongs between the pump and the bowl as shown in the installation instructions.
Your head discharge hose may or may not be the same size as you'll need for the PH II. Jabsco is the only mfr who uses a 1" discharge...everyone else uses 1.5", which is the industry standard for toilets, y-valves and tank fittings. A few years ago Jabsco finally began offering a 1.5" discharge fitting as an alternative choice...but if your tank is still the Catalina OEM tank (made by Ronco, btw, but custom just for Catalina), your tank inlet fitting MAY be 1", which would mean your head discharge hose is 1". That's the long explanation of why you're just gonna have to check the measurements...use inner diameter of the hose, outer diameter of the fittings.
Btw, although the SeaEra is a "plug 'n' play" replacement for the comparable Jabsco electric, the PH II is NOT a "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco manual...you will have to drill at least one new mounting bolt hole and fill one or two...no big deal, though.
If your head intake hose and tank vent line are clear plastic, replace 'em. Intake hoses rarely permeate, but who needs to look at the molds and algae that build up in it? You'll need a slightly longer intake hose than your current one, 'cuz the inlet fitting is on the back of the Jabsco manual, at the front of the PH II. Tank vent line DOES permeate, even sanitation hose. Clear water hose permeates even faster. Use Shields or Trident #148 for both these hoses.
Your description of the odor and black crud in your intake line raises the question of whether your "brown backflow" is actually BACKflow, and not flush water rising in the bowl to the waterline. If there's no vented loop in the intake, that'll definitely happen if the toilet is in the wet mode...and, since the wet/dry cams in Jabscos have a high failure rate, CAN also happen when the lever is in the dry mode 'cuz the lever isn't moving the cam any more. I strongly recommend that you install a vented loop in the PH II intake...it belongs between the pump and the bowl as shown in the installation instructions.
Your head discharge hose may or may not be the same size as you'll need for the PH II. Jabsco is the only mfr who uses a 1" discharge...everyone else uses 1.5", which is the industry standard for toilets, y-valves and tank fittings. A few years ago Jabsco finally began offering a 1.5" discharge fitting as an alternative choice...but if your tank is still the Catalina OEM tank (made by Ronco, btw, but custom just for Catalina), your tank inlet fitting MAY be 1", which would mean your head discharge hose is 1". That's the long explanation of why you're just gonna have to check the measurements...use inner diameter of the hose, outer diameter of the fittings.
Btw, although the SeaEra is a "plug 'n' play" replacement for the comparable Jabsco electric, the PH II is NOT a "plug 'n' play" replacement for the Jabsco manual...you will have to drill at least one new mounting bolt hole and fill one or two...no big deal, though.
Thanks Peggy
I appreciate all the good advice. I guess this project gets to jump to the head of the line (no pun intended). I've heard the squeaky wheel gets the grease but the stinky head gets swapped out even before greasing the squeaky wheel.
I appreciate all the good advice. I guess this project gets to jump to the head of the line (no pun intended). I've heard the squeaky wheel gets the grease but the stinky head gets swapped out even before greasing the squeaky wheel.
Elective Surgery
Well I have all of the parts standing by to swap out the Jabsco head that has been backfilling on my new C42 (new last September #1003) for a Raritan PH II. I removed the matress and took off panels so I can see what I am doing and prepared the interior of head and stateroom for a messy job. I had considered reusing the 1 1/2" hoses to the holding tank and deck fittings. It was while tracing these lines behind the bunk that I discovered they were hooked up wrong. The deck fitting was connected to the top of the holding tank. The hose from the back of the toilet goes to the bottom of the holding tank where the macerator pump to the seacock is hooked up.
This explains the symptoms. I would get backfilling under any circumstances and when I went to the pumpout station only a very small amount of liquid would pump out on the forward head.
I know now that I did not need the new toilet...at least not yet. However, if I am going to go to all of the trouble to change out the hoses I'm not going to plug in a Jabsco. The challenging part of this operation will be emptying the holding tank for the first time when I remove the 1 1/2" line at the base of the toilet. Rental Vacuum standing by...check.
Of course all of this would be covered by warranty but it could go very badly in the wrong hands.
Well I have all of the parts standing by to swap out the Jabsco head that has been backfilling on my new C42 (new last September #1003) for a Raritan PH II. I removed the matress and took off panels so I can see what I am doing and prepared the interior of head and stateroom for a messy job. I had considered reusing the 1 1/2" hoses to the holding tank and deck fittings. It was while tracing these lines behind the bunk that I discovered they were hooked up wrong. The deck fitting was connected to the top of the holding tank. The hose from the back of the toilet goes to the bottom of the holding tank where the macerator pump to the seacock is hooked up.
This explains the symptoms. I would get backfilling under any circumstances and when I went to the pumpout station only a very small amount of liquid would pump out on the forward head.
I know now that I did not need the new toilet...at least not yet. However, if I am going to go to all of the trouble to change out the hoses I'm not going to plug in a Jabsco. The challenging part of this operation will be emptying the holding tank for the first time when I remove the 1 1/2" line at the base of the toilet. Rental Vacuum standing by...check.
Of course all of this would be covered by warranty but it could go very badly in the wrong hands.
Suggestion to pump out the tank
Remove the hose going to the pumpout...remove the fitting and take it to Home Depot or any hardware store that has PVC pipe. Buy a piece that'll fit tightly inside the fitting (most likely 1.25" OD) and that's the right length to reach to the bottom of the tank. You've just created a top mounted discharge with a pickup tube. Take it back to the boat and reassemble it...go to the pumpout. And after all the waste is out, while you're still pumping out, put LOTs of clean water into the the via the toilet to rinse out the tank.
You COULD make that permanent by using PVC cement to keep the pickup tube attached to the hose fitting...it would eliminate standing waste in the pumpout hose and reduce permeation. Seal up the existing fitting at the bottom of the tank using a threaded plug--available at any hardware store that has plumbing supplies--wrapped in plenty of teflon tape. Create a new inlet fitting on the top of the tank using a li'l gadget called the UniSeal http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal1.htm (Scroll through all the pages to see how it works and the pricing) and another short piece of PVC pipe.
Remove the hose going to the pumpout...remove the fitting and take it to Home Depot or any hardware store that has PVC pipe. Buy a piece that'll fit tightly inside the fitting (most likely 1.25" OD) and that's the right length to reach to the bottom of the tank. You've just created a top mounted discharge with a pickup tube. Take it back to the boat and reassemble it...go to the pumpout. And after all the waste is out, while you're still pumping out, put LOTs of clean water into the the via the toilet to rinse out the tank.
You COULD make that permanent by using PVC cement to keep the pickup tube attached to the hose fitting...it would eliminate standing waste in the pumpout hose and reduce permeation. Seal up the existing fitting at the bottom of the tank using a threaded plug--available at any hardware store that has plumbing supplies--wrapped in plenty of teflon tape. Create a new inlet fitting on the top of the tank using a li'l gadget called the UniSeal http://www.aussieglobe.com/uniseal1.htm (Scroll through all the pages to see how it works and the pricing) and another short piece of PVC pipe.
Easier way...I hope.
Since the hose that should go up to the deck fitting goes to the toilet and the deck fitting hose goes to the top-fill fitting which is where the toilet should discharge, I plan to carefully remove the hose from the top of tank and fit a double-ended spline in the end. Then with all of the water lines removed from the old toilet, I will lift the old toilet above the level of holding tank before removing hose. With these two hoses spliced together I now have a path to empty the holding tank so it's off to the pump out station. The empty fitting at the top of the tank will have a short piece of 1 1/2" hose folded over and clamped to prevent splash. Between flushings at the pumpout I will insert a hose into the top fitting through the 1 1/2" hose to help clean out any solids.
Since the hose that should go up to the deck fitting goes to the toilet and the deck fitting hose goes to the top-fill fitting which is where the toilet should discharge, I plan to carefully remove the hose from the top of tank and fit a double-ended spline in the end. Then with all of the water lines removed from the old toilet, I will lift the old toilet above the level of holding tank before removing hose. With these two hoses spliced together I now have a path to empty the holding tank so it's off to the pump out station. The empty fitting at the top of the tank will have a short piece of 1 1/2" hose folded over and clamped to prevent splash. Between flushings at the pumpout I will insert a hose into the top fitting through the 1 1/2" hose to help clean out any solids.
Compact II vs PH II
I don't seem to have quite enough room for the base of the PH II to fit on top of the platform in my C42. I was thinking about leaving off the cover piece because that is all that overhangs but the toilet looks much better with the cover piece installed. It also looks like the pump handle may limit the opening of the shower door a bit.
The real answer might be to put in the Compact II (CP II). How do you feel the CP II compares to the PH II. Would the performance of the pump be the same? Is there some other head I should be considering? Would I be better off to make the PH II fit? I had even considered enlarging the fiberglass base but that seem like a lot of work to go through. The most important thing is to end up with a head that works.
I ordered your book yesterday so I should be getting more educated on this subject soon. I though it would be best to get it before the installation. I have one question that may not be answered in the book. I noticed that it is not easy to get the 1 1/2" hose over the fittings. Are there any tricks to that like using heat on the hose (air of water) or some type of lubricant on the hose or fitting?
I don't seem to have quite enough room for the base of the PH II to fit on top of the platform in my C42. I was thinking about leaving off the cover piece because that is all that overhangs but the toilet looks much better with the cover piece installed. It also looks like the pump handle may limit the opening of the shower door a bit.
The real answer might be to put in the Compact II (CP II). How do you feel the CP II compares to the PH II. Would the performance of the pump be the same? Is there some other head I should be considering? Would I be better off to make the PH II fit? I had even considered enlarging the fiberglass base but that seem like a lot of work to go through. The most important thing is to end up with a head that works.
I ordered your book yesterday so I should be getting more educated on this subject soon. I though it would be best to get it before the installation. I have one question that may not be answered in the book. I noticed that it is not easy to get the 1 1/2" hose over the fittings. Are there any tricks to that like using heat on the hose (air of water) or some type of lubricant on the hose or fitting?
PHC is a MUCH better choice than CP II
The PHC is the compact version of the PH II...it uses the same pump, but on a compact base with a shorter handle, to fit in the same space as compact toilets. Defender has it. There's no comparison between the Compact pump and the PH pump...the PH pump is far more efficient and durable. You'll be a lot happier with it than with the CP II, and for just about the same amount of money.
As for how to get hoses onto fittings: warm them first...if you use a heat gun, be VERY careful not to overheat them! Use a little K-Y on both the inside of the hose and the outside of the fitting lubricate. It's also easier to take hoses OFF fittings if you warm 'em first.
The PHC is the compact version of the PH II...it uses the same pump, but on a compact base with a shorter handle, to fit in the same space as compact toilets. Defender has it. There's no comparison between the Compact pump and the PH pump...the PH pump is far more efficient and durable. You'll be a lot happier with it than with the CP II, and for just about the same amount of money.
As for how to get hoses onto fittings: warm them first...if you use a heat gun, be VERY careful not to overheat them! Use a little K-Y on both the inside of the hose and the outside of the fitting lubricate. It's also easier to take hoses OFF fittings if you warm 'em first.
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