Peggy, We had an Atlantes installed slightly over one year ago in our Vision 36 by the local Hunter dealer. It operates on our fresh water pressurized pump and discharges into a holding tank. Our problem, which the dealer has been unable to correct, involves seepage back into the bowl when the boat is left for more than several days. We have had the joker valve replaced three times thus far. Since my wife lives aboard while attending school, it is very unpleasant for her when she returns to the boat on a Monday after leaving the previous Thursday and finding the bowl almost full with waste that seeps back into the bowl. Our dealer is trying to tell us that this seepage is “normal”; however, I find it hard to believe that Raritan would build a product that has such a material defect. I am beginning to think it may be the vented loop; however, I cannot get the Hunter dealer to focus on anything beyond the joker valve. I have had a suggestion by a friend that we install a loop (riser) from the head raising the flush up over the loop and, perhaps install a second joker valve in the loop itself. This would address the lengthy 15 feet + run from the head to the holding tank and insure the flush is elevated above the holding tank (currently, the head is below the holding tank level, which is also over 15 feet away). Could you give me some much needed advise on this matter, Thanks, Brad
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15 feet to the holding tank???
And it's uphill all the way? There's nothing wrong with your toilet...it's the installation that's causing your problem: The holding tank is at least twice as far from the toilet as it should be...6-8' is the maximum distance any toilet can push waste, especially uphill....and it's not gonna be cured by replacing the joker valve, 'cuz a joker valve can only prevent a flood, it can't block seepage--at least not after the head has been flushed a few times because waste and toilet paper going through it gradually stretches the "lips" a micromilimiter at a time...till after a couple of years, the slit becomes a gaping hole that couldn't even block a flood any more (that's true in all toilets, btw..it has nothing to do with the fact that your toilet is an Atlantes). If the head discharge hose runs is uphill, there's always gonna be flush water, if not waste too in a run that long, left in it...gravity sends it back toward the toilet to seep back into the bowl. The inside of the head head discharge hose is naturally gonna be dirty...so even if there isn't any waste left in the hose--which is almost impossible to avoid in a run that long--the water that seeps back into the bowl will be dirty...the more actual waste left in the line, the dirtier it will be. And btw...leaving waste and/or dirty water standing in a hose causes another problem: permeated (stinking) hose. Without seeing your boat, I'm not sure the problem CAN be completely solved without moving the holding tank--or better yet, taking this toilet off the tank and installing a Lectra/San (which is what I'd do..why mess with a holding tank if you can flush overboard?) However, if you can modify the hose run to make it downhill from the top of a loop--not necessarily a vented loop, just an arch--right after the toilet, it'll help a lot...that will leave only the small amount of flush water in the line between the head and the top of the loop to seep back into the toilet, which should remain relatively clean. I would not put a second joker valve in it...that could cause more problems than it solves. You might also suggest to your dealer that he buy a copy of my book when it comes out...
And it's uphill all the way? There's nothing wrong with your toilet...it's the installation that's causing your problem: The holding tank is at least twice as far from the toilet as it should be...6-8' is the maximum distance any toilet can push waste, especially uphill....and it's not gonna be cured by replacing the joker valve, 'cuz a joker valve can only prevent a flood, it can't block seepage--at least not after the head has been flushed a few times because waste and toilet paper going through it gradually stretches the "lips" a micromilimiter at a time...till after a couple of years, the slit becomes a gaping hole that couldn't even block a flood any more (that's true in all toilets, btw..it has nothing to do with the fact that your toilet is an Atlantes). If the head discharge hose runs is uphill, there's always gonna be flush water, if not waste too in a run that long, left in it...gravity sends it back toward the toilet to seep back into the bowl. The inside of the head head discharge hose is naturally gonna be dirty...so even if there isn't any waste left in the hose--which is almost impossible to avoid in a run that long--the water that seeps back into the bowl will be dirty...the more actual waste left in the line, the dirtier it will be. And btw...leaving waste and/or dirty water standing in a hose causes another problem: permeated (stinking) hose. Without seeing your boat, I'm not sure the problem CAN be completely solved without moving the holding tank--or better yet, taking this toilet off the tank and installing a Lectra/San (which is what I'd do..why mess with a holding tank if you can flush overboard?) However, if you can modify the hose run to make it downhill from the top of a loop--not necessarily a vented loop, just an arch--right after the toilet, it'll help a lot...that will leave only the small amount of flush water in the line between the head and the top of the loop to seep back into the toilet, which should remain relatively clean. I would not put a second joker valve in it...that could cause more problems than it solves. You might also suggest to your dealer that he buy a copy of my book when it comes out...
What is the real story on Electrasan?
Peggy, We took your advice when we installed the Atlantes - have not regreted that at all. The head works great, woudl recommend it to all. Your confirmation of my suspecting the Hunter design in the lengthy run as the source of the problem helps, since we were headed towards installing a riser pipe anyway. My next question though has to do with the Lectra/San. The dealer (same one that keeps changing the joker valve), tells me these are high maintenance and very problematic. I could ignore them based on the great advise and solutions thus far, but I have also had someone that I respect as a boat mainenance person say the same thing. So, as THE EXPERT - what is the real story on Lectra/San - will it be more problems than it is worth? If I do go that route, should I stay with the fresh water and get the salt additive or replumb back to the salt water intake? Lastly, I was also under the impression that I could not flush within Tampa Bay or 5 (or was that 10) miles of shore on the Gulf Coast? thanks again for your input, as usual, it is greatly appreciated.
Peggy, We took your advice when we installed the Atlantes - have not regreted that at all. The head works great, woudl recommend it to all. Your confirmation of my suspecting the Hunter design in the lengthy run as the source of the problem helps, since we were headed towards installing a riser pipe anyway. My next question though has to do with the Lectra/San. The dealer (same one that keeps changing the joker valve), tells me these are high maintenance and very problematic. I could ignore them based on the great advise and solutions thus far, but I have also had someone that I respect as a boat mainenance person say the same thing. So, as THE EXPERT - what is the real story on Lectra/San - will it be more problems than it is worth? If I do go that route, should I stay with the fresh water and get the salt additive or replumb back to the salt water intake? Lastly, I was also under the impression that I could not flush within Tampa Bay or 5 (or was that 10) miles of shore on the Gulf Coast? thanks again for your input, as usual, it is greatly appreciated.
Lectra/San is excellent
And needs very LITTLE maintenance...only cleaning about 3-4 times a year (which does NOT require taking it apart) to removed sea water calcium carbonate buildup on the electrodes. That's a bit more often is required further north because the calcium carbonate content in warm waters is much higher than in cold. The probibition against flushing overboard inside the "3 mile limit" (which can be 6, 9 or 12 in parts of the Gulf off FL) ONLY applies to raw untreated waste direct from the toilet or a holding tank. Except in waters specifically designated "no discharge" (the nearest one to you is the marine sanctuary off Key West), the treated discharge from a Type I or II MSD (treatment device...the L/S is a Type I, legal on boats up to 66' LOA) is quite legal. You don't have to go back to sea water flush to use it...but you will have to install a salt feed tank--the 4 gallon one with a pump that uses rock salt. That means the salt tank has to be accessible to reload it...but each 20 lb fill should last you about 6 months (a full season in most climates). Spend a little time on the Raritan website (link below) reading about it. You believed me about the Atlantes and that worked out...trust me about the Lectra/San too. The only people who have problems with 'em either don't install 'em correctly, try to flush without running it, or never clean 'em.
And needs very LITTLE maintenance...only cleaning about 3-4 times a year (which does NOT require taking it apart) to removed sea water calcium carbonate buildup on the electrodes. That's a bit more often is required further north because the calcium carbonate content in warm waters is much higher than in cold. The probibition against flushing overboard inside the "3 mile limit" (which can be 6, 9 or 12 in parts of the Gulf off FL) ONLY applies to raw untreated waste direct from the toilet or a holding tank. Except in waters specifically designated "no discharge" (the nearest one to you is the marine sanctuary off Key West), the treated discharge from a Type I or II MSD (treatment device...the L/S is a Type I, legal on boats up to 66' LOA) is quite legal. You don't have to go back to sea water flush to use it...but you will have to install a salt feed tank--the 4 gallon one with a pump that uses rock salt. That means the salt tank has to be accessible to reload it...but each 20 lb fill should last you about 6 months (a full season in most climates). Spend a little time on the Raritan website (link below) reading about it. You believed me about the Atlantes and that worked out...trust me about the Lectra/San too. The only people who have problems with 'em either don't install 'em correctly, try to flush without running it, or never clean 'em.
Thanks, Peggy
As usual, your responses are always encouraging and very enlightening. We will do some research this long weekend (in between overeating and taking Itzafig out in the bay/gulf). May you and your family have a great Thanksgiving, I know one reason to give thanks is to have you as one of our resources and the time and attention you give us. Thanks very much. Brad
As usual, your responses are always encouraging and very enlightening. We will do some research this long weekend (in between overeating and taking Itzafig out in the bay/gulf). May you and your family have a great Thanksgiving, I know one reason to give thanks is to have you as one of our resources and the time and attention you give us. Thanks very much. Brad
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