I have the info sheet which explains the reasons why the B&R rig (with backstay) doesnt need a backstay adjuster but I notice that the Hunter 34 on the brochure photos has an adjuster rigged between the two wires which make up the bottom of the backstay.Obviously when the adjuster is tightened (looks like a 4/1 purchase mainsheet arrangement) the 2 wires are pulled towards eachother which will tighten the back and forestays. Does anyone else use this arrangment or are there any other kinds of backstay adjuster that can be used on a 34. It would be nice to be able to have some control over the forestay tension when going up wind in a blow. Many thanks Andrew
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Andrew, Photo #90, on my web site.
I'm with you on backstay tension. I used to have the pulley system. The photo has a look at the new tensioner.
I'm with you on backstay tension. I used to have the pulley system. The photo has a look at the new tensioner.
don't bother
Hi Andrew, I had an adjustable back stay on my H-34. I replaced all the standing rigging (and the compression post) 2 months ago. When I did this I took the opportunity to get rid of the adjuster. The way this hunter is rigged, you will actually decrease windward performance if you increase the tension going to weather. When you increase the tension, you increase rake which increases weather helm. B/c the rig is not fractional you marginally flatten the sail, and thus don't gain much on that front. I have found that setting up the rig with the correct rake, and correct tension all the way around results in a much better sailing boat than I could ever get with the adjustable back stay. I would spend money somewhere else on the boat - namely tuning the rig. Hope this helps. Cheers, Adam
Hi Andrew, I had an adjustable back stay on my H-34. I replaced all the standing rigging (and the compression post) 2 months ago. When I did this I took the opportunity to get rid of the adjuster. The way this hunter is rigged, you will actually decrease windward performance if you increase the tension going to weather. When you increase the tension, you increase rake which increases weather helm. B/c the rig is not fractional you marginally flatten the sail, and thus don't gain much on that front. I have found that setting up the rig with the correct rake, and correct tension all the way around results in a much better sailing boat than I could ever get with the adjustable back stay. I would spend money somewhere else on the boat - namely tuning the rig. Hope this helps. Cheers, Adam
I don't agree with Adam
We sail and race our 28.5 that has the same rig as the 34. I have a 16-1 cascade system on my back stay and have removed the wire back stay and replaced with a high tech covered line. I use the backstay adjuster to help flatten out the for stay when sailing to weather. It helps with flattening the luff of the sail. I have our boat set up with 2 inches of pre-bend not to be confused with rake 2 different thing's. When we race we adjust the forstay for conditions for that day. We will let of a few turns on the for stay for light air races and tighten up a few turns for when it is really blowing. Just looking up the luff and having some one tighten the backstay while sailing and you will see the difference it makes. When you crank on the backstay on a mast head rig boat the real benifit is to tighten the forstay. Best set up for this rig is to have a hydrolic forstay but not real cost effective. The 1 Design 35 have this sytem and a simular rig. Cliff
We sail and race our 28.5 that has the same rig as the 34. I have a 16-1 cascade system on my back stay and have removed the wire back stay and replaced with a high tech covered line. I use the backstay adjuster to help flatten out the for stay when sailing to weather. It helps with flattening the luff of the sail. I have our boat set up with 2 inches of pre-bend not to be confused with rake 2 different thing's. When we race we adjust the forstay for conditions for that day. We will let of a few turns on the for stay for light air races and tighten up a few turns for when it is really blowing. Just looking up the luff and having some one tighten the backstay while sailing and you will see the difference it makes. When you crank on the backstay on a mast head rig boat the real benifit is to tighten the forstay. Best set up for this rig is to have a hydrolic forstay but not real cost effective. The 1 Design 35 have this sytem and a simular rig. Cliff
Split Backstay Adjuster
I also have a 28.5 to which I added a 4:1 purchase doubled to 8:1 thru the bottom pulley of a Backstay adjuster sheave assembly which rides the 'split' portion. Two years ago when I had our sailmaker measure the boat for a new mainsail, he measured the luff curve with the adjuster off, then again with it'on' and seemed surprised at the difference. I can see the flatter main (I have two draft stripes on the main) as the luff curve is pulled forward with the increased bend in the mast. This also tightens the headstay, making the entry for the Genoa finer for pointing. I haven't had a problem with weather helm, but I have the deep keel version. I typically drop the traveler an inch or 1-1/2 to de-power and can adjust the cunningham to move the draft in the main, if necessary. I've heard weather helm complaints from the shoal draft 28.5's which have a longer shallower keel and a center of resistance further aft. A shoal draft 34 would be similar. My backstay adjuster is still listed in West Marine at $31.49; the original 4:1 vang was under $100, it's now listed at $220, and I added a 10' wire rope with thimble ends to double the purchase for probably $10-15. The 28.5 does have a thinner mast section than either the 31 or 34 and probably takes a 'bend' a little easier. I use the backstay adjuster and think it's worth it, but other sail controls come into play as well.
I also have a 28.5 to which I added a 4:1 purchase doubled to 8:1 thru the bottom pulley of a Backstay adjuster sheave assembly which rides the 'split' portion. Two years ago when I had our sailmaker measure the boat for a new mainsail, he measured the luff curve with the adjuster off, then again with it'on' and seemed surprised at the difference. I can see the flatter main (I have two draft stripes on the main) as the luff curve is pulled forward with the increased bend in the mast. This also tightens the headstay, making the entry for the Genoa finer for pointing. I haven't had a problem with weather helm, but I have the deep keel version. I typically drop the traveler an inch or 1-1/2 to de-power and can adjust the cunningham to move the draft in the main, if necessary. I've heard weather helm complaints from the shoal draft 28.5's which have a longer shallower keel and a center of resistance further aft. A shoal draft 34 would be similar. My backstay adjuster is still listed in West Marine at $31.49; the original 4:1 vang was under $100, it's now listed at $220, and I added a 10' wire rope with thimble ends to double the purchase for probably $10-15. The 28.5 does have a thinner mast section than either the 31 or 34 and probably takes a 'bend' a little easier. I use the backstay adjuster and think it's worth it, but other sail controls come into play as well.
No Backstay Adjuster
Andrew, Sail Magazine had an article this year on Modern Sail Rigs. In regard to the B&R rig it stated what I had thought for a long time that a Backstay adjustment would "UNLOAD THE UPPER STAYS." I believe that this condition has the potential to make the mast unstable due to the high "L/R" length divided by radius of gyration. The slender mast that lowers the weight and give the boat the sleek look gets it strength from the prebend and the sweptback spreaders. You might get some improved performance above what a properly tuned rig would give you but I believe that you are flirting with disaster if you crank down on the mast backstay. My Hunter 34 just took 3rd place in the GA-FL offshore race without a backstay adjuster. Fair winds and following seas, Charlie P.S. Sorry Fred, I seldom disagree with you!
Andrew, Sail Magazine had an article this year on Modern Sail Rigs. In regard to the B&R rig it stated what I had thought for a long time that a Backstay adjustment would "UNLOAD THE UPPER STAYS." I believe that this condition has the potential to make the mast unstable due to the high "L/R" length divided by radius of gyration. The slender mast that lowers the weight and give the boat the sleek look gets it strength from the prebend and the sweptback spreaders. You might get some improved performance above what a properly tuned rig would give you but I believe that you are flirting with disaster if you crank down on the mast backstay. My Hunter 34 just took 3rd place in the GA-FL offshore race without a backstay adjuster. Fair winds and following seas, Charlie P.S. Sorry Fred, I seldom disagree with you!
3rd might have been a 1st
The current B & R rigs are not the same as on the 28.5,31,34 designed boats. Our spreaders do not go out to the toe rail and our side stays are not bolted to the toe rail either. We have 2 inches of pre-bend in our rig and have been in 30 knot winds beating into the wind with blade jib and a reefed main with the backsty cranked on in 6-8 foot Lake Erie waves. We had some lee ward sag of the rig all 3 side stays but that is to be expected in such conditions. Never have I seen any pumping of the rig in these conditions or have we or any that I know of with these boats had any problem's. Ther are a 31,34 and our 28.5 racing and none have ever experanced a problem. I Cliff
The current B & R rigs are not the same as on the 28.5,31,34 designed boats. Our spreaders do not go out to the toe rail and our side stays are not bolted to the toe rail either. We have 2 inches of pre-bend in our rig and have been in 30 knot winds beating into the wind with blade jib and a reefed main with the backsty cranked on in 6-8 foot Lake Erie waves. We had some lee ward sag of the rig all 3 side stays but that is to be expected in such conditions. Never have I seen any pumping of the rig in these conditions or have we or any that I know of with these boats had any problem's. Ther are a 31,34 and our 28.5 racing and none have ever experanced a problem. I Cliff
Thanks Cliff, maybe that explains where that
opinion comes from. Charlie, maybe we aren't disagreeing. Maybe it's apples and oranges. The rig on the 34 only has good things happen when the back stay is tightened. It would follow that the 28.5 and 31 would have similar performance. This series of boats was designed to be 'worked'. They are masthead rigged and have large overlapping Genoa's. And the 34 is rigged about two feet taller than a similar generation Catalina thirty SIX. Some say these boats are tender. You would be too with a big motor squashing your foot.
opinion comes from. Charlie, maybe we aren't disagreeing. Maybe it's apples and oranges. The rig on the 34 only has good things happen when the back stay is tightened. It would follow that the 28.5 and 31 would have similar performance. This series of boats was designed to be 'worked'. They are masthead rigged and have large overlapping Genoa's. And the 34 is rigged about two feet taller than a similar generation Catalina thirty SIX. Some say these boats are tender. You would be too with a big motor squashing your foot.
No Backstay Adjuster
Gentlemen: I have a 1985 Hunter 34, not a new version. I agree that it is a fine rig and it will take a lot of abuse. However, if you tighten the backstay after the rig has been properly tuned you place the mast into additional compression. The mast is already in a 5" prebend mode if tuned in accordance with manufacturer's tuning recommendation. The additional compression causes additional prebend and loosens the upper stays. I DO NOT THINK THAT IS A HEALTHY OPERATING MODE! Fair winds and following seas, Charlie P.S. Fred, I guess disagreeing with you once in over 5 years isn't too bad
Gentlemen: I have a 1985 Hunter 34, not a new version. I agree that it is a fine rig and it will take a lot of abuse. However, if you tighten the backstay after the rig has been properly tuned you place the mast into additional compression. The mast is already in a 5" prebend mode if tuned in accordance with manufacturer's tuning recommendation. The additional compression causes additional prebend and loosens the upper stays. I DO NOT THINK THAT IS A HEALTHY OPERATING MODE! Fair winds and following seas, Charlie P.S. Fred, I guess disagreeing with you once in over 5 years isn't too bad
Not bad Charlie, we even sail the same boat.
Oh no, wait, mines an '86. Seriously, maybe we're just tuned differently. I used to get those loose uppers with backstay tension, but that was in another life. Even so, the headstay tightened and took out much of its' sag. That was also what the instructions of the Harken roller furling said to do; "tighten the backstay to reduce sag, in a seaman like manor". Now, after our rebuild, I've done two things differently. First is to fix the dreaded compression post defect and the other is to tighten my shrouds with a Loos gauge. Now the shrouds have shown no noticeable slack on the lee side. Sure, they have less tension than the high side, but no slop. And the boat runs really good to weather. P.S. Charlie, that 5" of pre-bend has nothing to do with compression. It is placed in the spar with the mast on sawhorses in the boatyard.
Oh no, wait, mines an '86.
Seriously, maybe we're just tuned differently. I used to get those loose uppers with backstay tension, but that was in another life. Even so, the headstay tightened and took out much of its' sag. That was also what the instructions of the Harken roller furling said to do; "tighten the backstay to reduce sag, in a seaman like manor". Now, after our rebuild, I've done two things differently. First is to fix the dreaded compression post defect and the other is to tighten my shrouds with a Loos gauge. Now the shrouds have shown no noticeable slack on the lee side. Sure, they have less tension than the high side, but no slop. And the boat runs really good to weather. P.S. Charlie, that 5" of pre-bend has nothing to do with compression. It is placed in the spar with the mast on sawhorses in the boatyard.B
Remember pre bend is something that needs to be matched to the main sail. I am sometimes amazed at how much pre bend some have tweeked into ther rig. Setting up the rig is a blend of what the Main Sail is cut for and also getting the right amount of rake 2 different things. Taking a Main Sail made for 2 inches of prebend and having it on a boat with 6 inches of prebend is like sailing with the backstay cranked on all the time. Then add some back stay and move the draft even farther forward. Ther are 2 reasons I crank on the backstay, one to flatten the leading edge of the head sail to point better and the other is to induce some bend in the mast which moves the draft of the main sail forward which gives the boat more power and to keep it on it's feet when sailing in a higher wind range. If a Main sail is cut to have 5 inches of pre bend then that is one thing. Setting the boat up to a % of breaking strength like advised on the Loos Gauge is nut's. The rig should be set up to match what the sail's were made for. I think I remember reading somewhere that the pre bend should be about 1 % of the of the P measurement of the main Sail. For my 28.5 my P measurement is 31.80 so for me 2-3 inches is right. On the 34 the P measurement is 41' so 4-5 inches of Pre Bend would be about right. With this rig setting and the prebend induced with the rig down then the rig will stay in column when the backstay is cranked on. I think if one of the uppers seems to be lose then the upper section of the rig is not tuned right. Adding a Backstay adjuster to this B
Remember pre bend is something that needs to be matched to the main sail. I am sometimes amazed at how much pre bend some have tweeked into ther rig. Setting up the rig is a blend of what the Main Sail is cut for and also getting the right amount of rake 2 different things. Taking a Main Sail made for 2 inches of prebend and having it on a boat with 6 inches of prebend is like sailing with the backstay cranked on all the time. Then add some back stay and move the draft even farther forward. Ther are 2 reasons I crank on the backstay, one to flatten the leading edge of the head sail to point better and the other is to induce some bend in the mast which moves the draft of the main sail forward which gives the boat more power and to keep it on it's feet when sailing in a higher wind range. If a Main sail is cut to have 5 inches of pre bend then that is one thing. Setting the boat up to a % of breaking strength like advised on the Loos Gauge is nut's. The rig should be set up to match what the sail's were made for. I think I remember reading somewhere that the pre bend should be about 1 % of the of the P measurement of the main Sail. For my 28.5 my P measurement is 31.80 so for me 2-3 inches is right. On the 34 the P measurement is 41' so 4-5 inches of Pre Bend would be about right. With this rig setting and the prebend induced with the rig down then the rig will stay in column when the backstay is cranked on. I think if one of the uppers seems to be lose then the upper section of the rig is not tuned right. Adding a Backstay adjuster to this B
actually......
Cliff: Actually the pre-bend should be 1% of the mast height above the boom. On a 50' mast this would be about .5 feet (6").
Cliff: Actually the pre-bend should be 1% of the mast height above the boom. On a 50' mast this would be about .5 feet (6").
H34 Backstay Adjuster
you need to add one to take up the tension when the mast sinks in the deck due to the rotten compression post. You'll notice that you will run out of adjustment on the rigging turn buckles as the boat ages and it ain't from stretching wire
you need to add one to take up the tension when the mast sinks in the deck due to the rotten compression post. You'll notice that you will run out of adjustment on the rigging turn buckles as the boat ages and it ain't from stretching wire
Daryl!!!!!
As soon as I saw your name,,,, I knew you would say something like that!!!! Why??? Have I gained great knowledge,, or are you soooo predictable?
As soon as I saw your name,,,, I knew you would say something like that!!!! Why??? Have I gained great knowledge,, or are you soooo predictable?
Prebend
Fred, The prebend can be induced either on the saw horses or when the mast is in place and does not effect compression on the compression post either way. The prebend is induced by applying two forces via the upper and lower shroeds. One is a compression force and the other is a bending moment. When there is prebend in the mast as it is rigged on the Hunter 34 and probably every other boat there is compression in the mast. By cranking down on the backstay you induce more bending moment and more compression "unloading the uppers." I still BELIEVE THIS IS A LESS THAN SAFE OPPERATING MODE. Regards, Charlie
Fred, The prebend can be induced either on the saw horses or when the mast is in place and does not effect compression on the compression post either way. The prebend is induced by applying two forces via the upper and lower shroeds. One is a compression force and the other is a bending moment. When there is prebend in the mast as it is rigged on the Hunter 34 and probably every other boat there is compression in the mast. By cranking down on the backstay you induce more bending moment and more compression "unloading the uppers." I still BELIEVE THIS IS A LESS THAN SAFE OPPERATING MODE. Regards, Charlie
Charlie
Gotcha. I thought you were concerned with the bend being taken by the hull and therefor overloading the cabin. Of course the pre-bend loads on the spar are not dangerous and I don't argue that loose uppers are good. I just maintain that a backstay adjustment system, done right, is still the way to go with these boats. (28.5,31,34) And you got me to counting, I've 'bent' mine three times now.
Gotcha. I thought you were concerned with the bend being taken by the hull and therefor overloading the cabin. Of course the pre-bend loads on the spar are not dangerous and I don't argue that loose uppers are good. I just maintain that a backstay adjustment system, done right, is still the way to go with these boats. (28.5,31,34) And you got me to counting, I've 'bent' mine three times now.
It's like this,,,,,,,,,,,,
Oh Charlie, we could do this all day.... When I'm going to weather and the wind is picking up to say 15kts apparent, the headstay will start to sag. If you laid on your back on the fore-deck and looked up to the genoa luff, you would see a pronounce sag. This is hard on the furling gear when attempting to shorten sail and it is slow. The boat isn't pointing as high as she could. I just crank in about a thousand pounds of tension on the gauge of the adjuster. But I'm looking at the luff of the jib at the time, not the gauge. That pull does it, for my boat, in most conditions around here. I've tried doubling it and noticed no improvement in performance but no detrimental rigging anomalies either. That's as 'right' as I know how to do it, but I could be wrong.
Oh Charlie, we could do this all day.... When I'm going to weather and the wind is picking up to say 15kts apparent, the headstay will start to sag. If you laid on your back on the fore-deck and looked up to the genoa luff, you would see a pronounce sag. This is hard on the furling gear when attempting to shorten sail and it is slow. The boat isn't pointing as high as she could. I just crank in about a thousand pounds of tension on the gauge of the adjuster. But I'm looking at the luff of the jib at the time, not the gauge. That pull does it, for my boat, in most conditions around here. I've tried doubling it and noticed no improvement in performance but no detrimental rigging anomalies either. That's as 'right' as I know how to do it, but I could be wrong.
I gues I'll Leave My Back Stay Adjuster Be
When I bought out 87 hun 34 6 yrs ago I took the back stay adjuster off because it was ripping a hole in the bimini....It's in a box in the basement....After reading these notes, I plan on leaving it there for another 6 yrs...cheers.
When I bought out 87 hun 34 6 yrs ago I took the back stay adjuster off because it was ripping a hole in the bimini....It's in a box in the basement....After reading these notes, I plan on leaving it there for another 6 yrs...cheers.
Freddie!
It's all true and it happenned to me. Adding the adjuster was cheaper than replacing the rigging. I did not have $80k invested in my H34 and this modification was within my Hunter Budget
It's all true and it happenned to me. Adding the adjuster was cheaper than replacing the rigging. I did not have $80k invested in my H34 and this modification was within my Hunter Budget
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