Back Stay Adjuster

Status
Not open for further replies.
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
There is a thread going on one of the catalina sites regarding the above subject. A lister named Chris is considering adding a backstay adjuster. My 2 cents is that a backstay adjuster on a production boat with a telephone pole mast causes unintended problems. Some skippers are not sure why they are ordering a backstay adjustment in the first place. What they are trying to do is bend the mast but what they are actually doing in RACKING it back. The boat things someone picked up the mast and moved it aft thus inducing weather helm.

On the other hand, I've had personal discussions with some skippers who swear by it. I think the reason they do swear by it is because they induce just a little rake - like less than 3 degrees, which is a lot on a 45' mast.

Anyway, I personally don't bother with the backstay adjuster so I'm no expert on its use. I obviously know what it does or is suppose to do. I kept the Garhauer adjuster on the boat because it looked trick!!

Can any of you listers out there who have found the backstay adjuster benificial help Chris out? How much rake do you apply and what results do you get?
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,010
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
On my masthead rig I don't use it to do anything but adjust forestay tension. It doesn't really bend the mast like it would on a fractional rig and I'm not looking for any rake there either. The mast movement to change forestay tension/sag is minimal, less than an inch, I'd say. I don't play with the backstay adjuster as much as I used to... just getting lazy........ or not seeing a big benefit in performance.... all I know is if the forestay is a bit wobbly, I tighten it up with the backstay then pretty much leave it alone for the rest of the sail.
 

Rick D

.
Jun 14, 2008
7,145
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
What Joe Said....

On my O'Day 27 I installed a backstay adjuster. Seemed like the cool thing to do then. Didn't do much but tension the forestay, which was enough. After that, I went to a free-standing rig so there wasn't anything to adjust anyway... ;)
 

Ray T

.
Jan 24, 2008
224
Hunter 216 West End - Seven Lakes
I had a back stay adjuster on my Cal 227 with a telephone pole mast. The adjuster was an important part of sail trim . Going upwind I would tighten according to wind strength, it really does help your pointing ability. It also helps make the boat more controllable in stronger winds and gusts. Strong winds and gusts cause the jib to balloon out making for a more powerful shape than you might want causing loss of control and excessive heeling. Off the wind you can let off of the tension for a more powerful jib shape and more speed. I don't think you can go wrong with a back stay tensioner on a telephone pole mast.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Sailingdog: Yup, I've watched all of them and your friend is showing exactly what I'm saying. What the backstay adjuster is designed to do is take the fullness out of the middle of the sail. You can see the same result by bending your index finger. Unfortuately, you can't bend most production boat masts. When you crank on the backstay on a 'telephone pole" mast you end up not bending the mast but RAKING it back. Other than tightening the forestay nothing happens to the middle of the mainsail. In fact, the boat thinks the mast has been picked up and moved aft.

Here's why i brought this up other than a lister over on the Catalina 31 questioned the need for a backstay adjuster. A few years ago I had a discussion with a Catalina30 National Regatta racer from the Galveston area who was experimenting with mast rake and trying to gain a small bit more speed from his boat. Unfortunately, he was cranking too much on the mast and instead of gaining speed he was losing speed. I suggested he just crank in a little at a time and see what happens. It's like adjusting a carb on your car (when you could adjust them) or the hot water in your shower. You've got to wait a second for the effect to take place. He never did get back to me and I was hoping a forum lister had fooled around with his adjuster and could tell us (me) what he had done.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Sailingdog: Yup, I've watched all of them and your friend is showing exactly what I'm saying. What the backstay adjuster is designed to do is take the fullness out of the middle of the sail. You can see the same result by bending your index finger. Unfortuately, you can't bend most production boat masts. When you crank on the backstay on a 'telephone pole" mast you end up not bending the mast but RAKING it back. Other than tightening the forestay nothing happens to the middle of the mainsail. In fact, the boat thinks the mast has been picked up and moved aft.
It depends, on a masthead rig boat, yes, I'd agree with you. On a fractional rig boat, this may or may not be true—depending on the spar.

Here's why i brought this up other than a lister over on the Catalina 31 questioned the need for a backstay adjuster. A few years ago I had a discussion with a Catalina30 National Regatta racer from the Galveston area who was experimenting with mast rake and trying to gain a small bit more speed from his boat. Unfortunately, he was cranking too much on the mast and instead of gaining speed he was losing speed. I suggested he just crank in a little at a time and see what happens. It's like adjusting a carb on your car (when you could adjust them) or the hot water in your shower. You've got to wait a second for the effect to take place. He never did get back to me and I was hoping a forum lister had fooled around with his adjuster and could tell us (me) what he had done.
On one boat I was on—not a Catalina IIRC—the backstay adjuster had a "scale" next to it—basically a ruler, that allowed you to re-set the backstay adjuster to fairly repeatable settings, and the skipper/owner had a list of what settings worked best in what apparent wind ranges.
 
Jun 4, 2004
844
Hunter 28.5 Tolchester, MD
Backstay Adjuster on a Hunter:

I added an 8:1 purchase and roller plate backsatay adjuster to the original equipment split backstay on our Hunter 28.5 when new in 1986.

The B&R double spreader masthead rig has a fairly flexible mast; the same section as a J29, so it does bend and it does flatten out the main, while also tighteniong the headstay. I've found a little tension to be a very useful sail control for high pointing and when full on, for flattening and depowering the main. I had a new mainsail cut and the sailmaker measured the luff curve the backstay adjuster on and off. He was a little surprised in the amount of adjustment, but he made the sail to perfectly to suit the prebend of the B&R rig and still be able to go blade flat with the adjuster 'on'.
Yes there is some raking back of the mast, but I believe it helps with pointing and the set-up has not resulted in too much weather helm. I have been able to ballance the helm with a 110%, a 135% and a 155% Genoa matched to a Tuff-Luff headfoil which slides freely over tyhe headstay.
I'm not sure I 'd want to 'load up' a roller furling system too much,, but as long as you release tension before attempting furling the Genoa it would still be a decent sail control.

I do think other 'telephone pole' type single spreader masthead rigs, like the Catalina 30's aren't likely to bend and will just result in mast rake, and a tighter headstay.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,786
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
There are two reasons for backstay adjusters:

1. mainsail draft
2. forestay tension (assist)

A telephone pole mast will NOT allow #1. It works just fine for #2.

This thing has been kicked around for so long, and discussing telephone pole masts, that it should be archived or just made into an "Urban Myth Movie." :):):)
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Disagree slightly with you all.

As an avid amateur sailmaker I will relate that the shape and especially draft position of the genoa is 'entirely dependent' on the tension in the forestay ... as adjusted by the backstay. A genoa/jib is cut along the luff with a 'hollow / catenary' shape so that the luff of the wind-loaded genoa/jib exactly 'matches' the sag in the forestay - unless specified is usually cut to match a forestay at ~15%+ tension in the forestay (backstay). If the tension of the headstay (the amount of sag in the stay) doesnt ***match*** the 'luff hollow' shape, you will get deplorable performance out of the headsail. You can trim and shape until the 'cows come home' but if these two 'shapes' dont match up, the boat will have decidedly bad jib/genoa performance.
A loose headstay (tensioned by the backstay) is usually the cause of apparent (and mistakenly attributed to) 'weather helm' and is the main reason that most boats with improper headstay/backstay tension will aggressively SKID to leeward when on a hard beat.



The attached/following are copyrighted, you can apply them for personal usage, but you cannot copy or reproduce them © R. Hampel 2007 - all rights reserved


Matching “Luff Hollow” to Forestay Sag. ..... Copyright R. Hampel 2007
Why doesn’t my boat ‘point’, it just heels over and skids off to leeward?
When a sailmaker designs a headsail thats either attached to a foil or is attached by hanks, the sailmaker ‘assumes’ that the rigging is at normal tension (usually about 12-15% of the breaking strength of the wire). Unless specified otherwise a ‘cruising’ sail will be designed for ~15kts. of wind and the sailmaker will expect that headstay to ‘stretch’ a wee little bit when the sail is wind-loaded at the design windstrength. When beating, the stay will also begin to ‘sag’ off to the lee-side of the boat ... usually quite predictably. This expected sag is ‘compensated for’ by the sailmaker cutting a smooth curved amount of sail material from the luff section of the sail - called “luff hollow” (fig 1). If the hollow isn’t cut to this shape and when the headstay does sag all that material at the midsection of the luff would be ‘pushed’ towards the center of the sail and the designed point of maximum draft -wide grey line D1 in fig 1.- would move aft to D2 in fig.2 (increasing weather helm) and the amount of draft would get much deeper causing the boat to heel more ... sometimes causing even more apparent weather helm. Also, since the center of effort of the sail is now moved/sagged off to leeward ... its like someone moved that headstay several feet to leeward or radically somehow changed the sail’s angle of attack: the boat ... heels over, slows down, can’t point, and starts to ‘skid’ off to leeward ..... and all because the headstay sag no longer *matches* the luff hollow that the sailmaker designed into the sail !!!! Its all action and reaction.

How to increase headstay sag (and make pointing ‘worse’): loosen the backstay; apply too much winch tension to a sheet (all that applied load to the jibsheet eventually ‘distributes’ to the *headstay* which increases the sag); sail in wind well beyond what was the target design wind-loading for the sail.

How to know when the luff hollow shape is matching the normal sag in the headstay-
1. Ask the sailmaker how much luff hollow was cut into the sail, and where on the luff up from the tack is that maximum amount. When on a hard beat and with a Mark 1 eyeball near the tack, look up along the luff and simply estimate that the ‘sag’ you see is approximating that value that the sailmaker gave. If too much sag, tighten the backstay or release some sheet tension; if too little sag, loosen the backstay or increase sheet tension.
If this is too approximate, there is a more precise way ... .
2. Take the jib/genoa and lay it FLAT on FLAT clean ground or floor and make an ‘acordian fold’ about 2 ft. back from the luff (Fig. 3). The acordian fold will allow the ‘curved’ 3D shape of the luff of the sail to lay FLAT on the ground. Work out ALL wrinkles from the luff section - you want the luff to be absolutely FLAT. Then take a string and pull tight along the curved luff shape .... what is ‘missing’ between that tight string and the sail is the ‘luff hollow’ that the sailmaker cut from the luff edge of the sail. Measure and record or REMEMBER that ‘hollow’ shape if you want that sail to take the ‘shape’ as was designed.
For easy bombproof ‘precision’, take that taught string and move it a few inches across the luff and so that its parallel to the ‘first’ string position but now laying over sail material. Then get some 3/8" or 1/2" wide adhesive backed ‘draft stripe’ material and apply ’straight as an arrow’ just behind the leading edge of the FLAT sail luff on the ground. When sailing and having ‘pointing problems with increased weather helm’ ... just take a walk forward and ‘see’ if that vertical stripe along the luff is dead-straight (headstay sag now *exactly* matching the ‘luff hollow in the sail’). Do any adjustment necessary (backstay tension, jibsheet tension, running backstay, etc.) to keep that stripe ‘straight’ .... and your boat will now ‘point like a banshee’, with less heel, and wont be skidding off to leeward (and with the helmsman erroneously blaming ‘weather-helm’, etc.). Its very easy to overload a jibsheet on a large genoa ... and totally destroy the critical forward leading edge shape of the luff.

Want to race, quickly move to the side of a squall, point higher, or get to your far destination faster?  ... **match** the headstay sag to the “luff hollow”

RichH Ty37 #423 “Aquila” 12/07 ©2007 - R.Hampel
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Jun 4, 2004
273
Oday 25 Alameda
The attached are copyrighted, you can apply them for personal usage, but you cannot copy or reproduce them © R. Hampel
Can't read the text as attached so not really an issue.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Can't read the text as attached so not really an issue.
edited so that article appears in full text. Open the graphics thumb-nail to see illustrations/figures
 
Dec 4, 2008
264
Other people's boats - Milford, CT
Some masthead rigs are bendable

Just a note, some masthead rigs can be bent to control main sail draft using the backstay tension. No, "telephone pole" masts don't bend.

There are

1) bendable fractional rigs
2) bendable masthead rigs
3) un-bendable masthead rigs

Type 2 masts are common on race boats. They typically have a bend built into them even before backstay tension is applied.

Todd
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
No such thing as a non-bendable mast on a 'masthead' rig with lower forward and aft sstays.
IF the boat has forward and aft 'lowers', the proper 'pre-bend' is 3/4" forward bow for a single spreader rig and 1/2" forward bow 'per each spreader set' on a multiple spreader rig. The 'prebend' mitigates mast pumping (induced harmonic vibrations by increasing the geometric 'moment of Inertia' (I-cubed) of the shape. Such 'prebends' are usually included (and expected) in the luff shape of 'good' sails.
 
Dec 4, 2008
264
Other people's boats - Milford, CT
Non-bendable = not practical to flatten the main by bending the mast using a backstay adjustment.
 
Jun 14, 2005
165
Cal 20 Westport CT
on my cal 20…

I installed an adjustable backstay on my fractional rig Cal. (Bought it from Seal's Spars and Rigging.)

I think it's one of the most useful sail controls. I use it as one of the sail flattening methods, as the wind increases. I'm not real sophisticated about it. As the blow increases, in more or less the following order, I:
tighten the backstay, tighten the vang (if below a close reach), tighten the main outhaul, tighten the cunningham
move the jib fairleads aft

No precision here, and I don't race. But it seems to work for me.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Re: on my cal 20…

Beginners to intermediates: Dick's responce is what I like to see with answers on the sail trim forum. He tells you WHY he is making a sail trim adjustment and tells you WHAT to do by way of a step by step proceedure to follow and it is in plain English.

If you have boat with a "bendy" mast, like he has, then what he is telling you is the way to go. Unfortunately, it will not work on most production boats that do not have bendy masts. So suppose you can't bend the mast, what do you do? Simple, you use the other controls he is outlining.

Why does he want to flatten the sail when the wind pipes up? The reason is that a flat sail is a less powerful sail and he is trying to keep control of the boat. The way it works through the full spectrum of wind speed is you start out with a flat sail in very light wind. As the wind speed increases you gradually belly out the sail and as the wind starts to top out you gradually go back to the flat sail. That is the basic method. If the wind continues to build you then TWIST or open up the top of the main and jib to spill power. If the boat feels like it is still getting away from you your next step would be to reef.
 
Oct 6, 2008
857
Hunter, Island Packet, Catalina, San Juan 26,38,22,23 Kettle Falls, Washington
It's easy to say they work or don't when you are group shooting boats in general but on many specific boats the make enough difference to win or loose a race because of the adjuster.
If you are entertaining the thought of installing an adjuster then you should already have been using your mainsail outhaul, Cunningham and using halyard tension to name a few items of performance.
If you aren't using the above then I question whether the adjuster is just a bit of "bling" to look impressive.
If you blanketly discard this item without mentioning which boat model you speak of then I feel you're trying to sound impressive.
Just my thoughts as a current user of the above mentioned sail adjusting devise.
Ray
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Let me see if I can make this plainer than I already have - without sounding impressive. You can't be reading all the posts. You want me to mention all the boat models that don't have a mast that can be bent and not raked - that would include just about every production boat except a J boat and a few others. If a boat owner has a bendable mast he knows it.

Unfortunately, we have to talk in general terms. Space does not permit otherwise unless a kister has a specific question about a specific boat. In general the backstay adjuster does not work on a non bendy mast regardless of what you might think.
 
Jan 1, 2009
371
Atlantic 42 Honolulu
Let me see if I can make this plainer than I already have - without sounding impressive. You can't be reading all the posts.
Don, I've got a feeling that you haven't been reading the posts with a very open mind, either. RichH covered a lot of ground very well and, as far as I can tell, you just blew it off. If you already knew the answer you wanted and were not interested in input, why did you ask the question?

You want me to mention all the boat models that don't have a mast that can be bent and not raked - that would include just about every production boat except a J boat and a few others. If a boat owner has a bendable mast he knows it...
This is just silly. You're claiming that a CAL 20 has a "bendy"mast? I haven't looked them up, but I'm pretty sure the moments of a CAL 20 mast are very typical for masts on 20' production boats. If the CAL 20 mast is bendy then so are lots of others.

I'm probably missing something, but just reading your posts leaves me with the feeling that you aren't very familiar with tuning mast head rigs... :confused:

--Tom.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.