The Seldon guide constantly referenced the tension on the upper shrouds and even had a diagram naming them as the verticle shrouds. For the B&R rig, which would be the lower shrouds, V1?
-Will (Dragonfly)
B&R Rig Tension
- Thread starter Don Lucas
- Start date
-Will (Dragonfly)
The number simply references the levels, kind of like an elevator. Between the deck in the first spreader is one, between the first brothers and the second set is two, etc. even though it’s often a single piece of wire, the cap Shroud is the D3 in this case, where it was the D2 below the 2nd spreader
saved me the time of typing it
I think some of the people answering by "quoting" the manual should read it (I've read it many times starting way before I asked the original thread question)
I don't believe that is correct nomenclature. In general, any standing rigging with a significant lateral load may be correctly described as a shroud. "Shroud" is the generic term for lateral rigging.
For example, the Selden manual refers to diagonal shrouds numerous times. Other examples are the Benteau owner manuals. See attached pdf from the Beneteau First 25 manual below.
D1's (#1 diagonals) are commonly referred to as lower shrouds, and D2's are commonly called intermediate shrouds.
When vertical shrouds are continuous with the uppermost diagonal, the whole section length may be called V1. When the uppermost diagonal wire is discontinuous with the vertical sections, the only correct term is Dx
Selden must be trying to confuse us! on my 356, D1 is the lower shroud that goes from below the spreader to the inner chainplate. RD1 is the lower diagonal. V1 is the lower shroud from the outer chainplate to the spreader tip. selden's code seems to be that inner end low, outer end high are RD diagonals, inner high, outer low are D diagonals.I think you need to look at the manual for your rig....
yea I was not happy with my own wording! ;^)
But to your other point, most racers and many sailor will identity the sections as I described regardless if they are a single wire, so we can call them out unambiguously. If I say 'check out the tell-tail on the leeward V2', everyone knows exactly what I mean.
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Hi Chuck,
Hmmm... I don't find Selden's nomenclature confusing.
All diagonals go down from the mast and then outboard. Historically, D's came first, are more commonly found, and therefore are "normal"
All reverse diagonals go up from the mast and then outboard. RD's aren't as common, so they got designated as "reverse"
Here's a picture of a H356 and the relevant page from the owner's H365 manual
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The Selden manual talks of applying tension to the V1's and then the D1's, in the next paragraph it states continue adjusting the lower shrouds until the mast prebend shape (prior to stepping) is achieved. This certainly implicates the D1's as being "shrouds" in Selden's world.
Hence my interpretation.......although I could be wrong, that's been known to happen on occasion just not this occasion.
I have read it, studied it, and understand it.
Your question has been answered numerous times. You asked, "My lower stay V1 is a lot tighter than before (still within 15-20% of breaking strength) but the lower inner stay D1 seems a lot looser than before. I can't find anything on how tight D1 is suppose to be".
This has been answered by more than one contributor, quoting the manual was for your benefit not mine, copying the manual was not for my benefit but again for yours.
Now the term "stay" as I understand it is the fore and aft support of the mast, shrouds keep the mast in column and in Selden's world the reverse diagonals helps provide tension against the head stay by putting the aft plane of the mast in tension.
if you are going to quote my question please get it right and it definitely hasn't been "answered by more than one contributor" or I wouldn't keep making an attempt to get an answer
but I've lost interest in trying to get this mainly Hunter specific answer here
but I've lost interest in trying to get this mainly Hunter specific answer here
Don, I copied your quote from post #1, so please tell me what I got wrong? Your question was answered in post #5 page #2 of the instructions which I had attached, the reason for attaching the Selden documents was to enlighten you of all the dynamic's happening with your mast. Your rigger sounds like he didn't get things quite right, when he tightened the V1's it did not impart enough bend in the mast to allow the D1's to be tightened to the prescribed tension (or length if you prefer).
Tell us Don, does your mast have the prescribed prebend? or close to it. if it does and your D1's are loose then there wasn't enough prebend in it before it was stepped.
Tell us Don, does your mast have the prescribed prebend? or close to it. if it does and your D1's are loose then there wasn't enough prebend in it before it was stepped.
D1 is supposed to be just tight enough to keep the mast in colum whilst sailing closed hauled with sail trimmed properly for the conditions, and at a 15 degree heel.
The exact tension For the D1 is dependent upon a) the precise geometry of your rig tune ( which is in term dependent upon both the tensions and lengths of all the other wire rigging) as well as the flexibility of the mast and the spreader geometry and b) the righting moment of the boat (which varies according to how much weight you have added to your boat). That’s why the final tune of the rig must be done on the water with the boat heeling.
It follows from the previous paragraph that There is no single, precise D1 tension setting that will work for all H410s.
To solve for D1 tension, you must solve a set of simultaneous equations. ... or just follow the instructions in The manual starting at step 1. Both methods will get to the correct tension for D1.
Judy B
[edited to correct my use of technical mathematical terms.]
The exact tension For the D1 is dependent upon a) the precise geometry of your rig tune ( which is in term dependent upon both the tensions and lengths of all the other wire rigging) as well as the flexibility of the mast and the spreader geometry and b) the righting moment of the boat (which varies according to how much weight you have added to your boat). That’s why the final tune of the rig must be done on the water with the boat heeling.
It follows from the previous paragraph that There is no single, precise D1 tension setting that will work for all H410s.
To solve for D1 tension, you must solve a set of simultaneous equations. ... or just follow the instructions in The manual starting at step 1. Both methods will get to the correct tension for D1.
Judy B
[edited to correct my use of technical mathematical terms.]
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My manual indicates 20* heal angle for final tuning, but I am sure 15 would do the trick as well. In reading the tuning guide it certainly sounds on initial set up if all things prior have been done correctly that the D1's while static would be at 20%, at which point the final tuning of D1's would be while sailing at xx degrees of heal angle.
Yes, you’re correct. 20 degrees is a better reference point.
The underlying principles are that the mast should hold its shape and the wires don’t go slack in whatever conditions you sail in, and however hard you push the boat. If you sail in unusually gusty conditions or big waves frequently, you may need to tune the rig to be stable at higher degrees of heel.
And this variable in tuning to conditions of a B&R rig are tenuous to say the least. Wash and repeat until a clean tune is achieved...... I am sure that one needs some experience to get the retuning to a minimum.
Hi @Don Lucas
When you finally get an answer that satisfies you, would you please come back to this this thread and explain it to us? I have the technical expertise and experience to answer most rig questions, but you stumped me.
I'd be happy to buy you a
if you come up with a better answer than anybody here, as long you explain the reasoning using geometry, trigonometry and physics.Judy B
Authorized Selden Distributor
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The question was, and I copy and paste "What is the tension others have?" regarding D1.
So far it appears only one person on this thread who knows what their D1 tension is (it's me as I know the real measured tension of mine). It was just a "in general" question and I'm sorry if it was too simple for others to understand so they had to turn it into some type of answer they could prove themselves with by going down rabbit holes.
Then people started quoting a different parts of the manual and saying "20%" and I asked where it says that.
Now there are responses that just make up stuff about me and my rig and various experts.
So far it appears only one person on this thread who knows what their D1 tension is (it's me as I know the real measured tension of mine). It was just a "in general" question and I'm sorry if it was too simple for others to understand so they had to turn it into some type of answer they could prove themselves with by going down rabbit holes.
Then people started quoting a different parts of the manual and saying "20%" and I asked where it says that.
Now there are responses that just make up stuff about me and my rig and various experts.
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