B & R rig question

[DougM]

Just curious:
Some Hunter sailboats have been marketed with B & R rigs, and now the new Beneteau 30.1 appears to have the same. Typically the aft support comes from the swept back spreaders bringing the shrouds further back In the sailplan.
I raced MC scows with a similar setup so I know the rig works.

My question, not that I would attempt it, is would the mast on a Beneteau 323 or similar boat that already has swept back spreaders stand up without the split backstays? ( assuming no change in the shroud attachment points)

 

[dlochner]

It would probably stand up until a sail was hoisted, then all bets are off.

 

[rgranger]

I can's speak for all Hunter or the Bene 323 s but it would not be wise on my H26. My mast is attached to the boat via a hinged mast foot. So.... it would most likely rip the foot out and fall forward anytime the wind was abaft the beam.

 

[FastOlson]

A rig designed with a backstay will need one to stand up, even tho the B&R rig geometry will provide some forestay support. Note that even a swept-rig J-24 still relies on a backstay. My previous boat was fractional swept rig and also required a backstay.
Later, Hunter beefed up the chainplate connection to allow the swept rig (B&R) to function without the backstay. This augmented their overhead traveler scheme in removing almost all sailing-oriented lines from the cockpit and pleasing new boat buyers.

While the B&R rig worked acceptably to support the mast (if you accept main sail chafe when sailing down wind) on some boats that also used backstays, the rig design does have one major drawback.

When the original rigging gets over 15 years old and needs replacement the more-complex B&R will cost about 3 times what a conventional single or double spreader rig will cost. I get the info from a professional rigger with decades in the business. The $ difference is not absolute, and you might find a deal, but sometimes owners of boats with this setup are *taken aback by this.
Dealers are loathe to discuss it, for obvious reasons.
And then, lots of owners just find one more reason to allow their rig to dangerously age and hope that the the next owner(s) will not quiz them about maintenance.

*to the point of shock and denial

 

[Hunter216]

the more-complex B&R will cost about 3 times what a conventional single or double spreader rig will cost.

I’m curious why there would be this much additional cost. I think the term in a B&R rig is reverse diagonal? but that is some extra cable and some fittings. Does the rigger have to spend a lot more time “tuning”?

 

[kloudie1]

The "backstayless" B&R has longer spreaders and more backsweep on the spreaders to allow the headstay to be tight when there is no main.. The mainsail when trimmed (with a traveler) and within a couple feet of centerline adds a LOT of tension to the headstay and will usually keep the mast from falling forward.. but don't try it!! Had a backstay fail on a friend's O'Day 29 and we sailed back with a reefed genoa and full main .. We did use the spin halyard as a temp backstay after a bit, but the rig was stable with the main sheeted in .. If ya have a good tight topping lift, that, with no main, and the traveler sheeted n tight on center will keep the rig from falling forward.. Again, don't try that unless ya have to..

 

[DayDreamer41]

I would not recommend mounting a mast that was not designed for a particular vessel.

@FastOlson I think you may have talked to a rigger who either loves to overcharge or has little to no experience with the B&R rigging. While eliminating the back stay or stays the B&R rig adds (4) diagonals which each have turn buckles, but the diagonals are only 3/16 cable on our 41 DS. As for removal of sail oriented line from the cockpit I think not, the traveler is overhead with the control from the helm, the jib sheets are led through block and winches also which can be controlled from the helm and other lines are on the cabin top and are controlled from the cockpit. The B&R rig sets the supports 120* apart allowing for a tripod arrangement, the diagonals minimize mast pumping as compared to conventional rigs.

 

[DrJudyB]

My question, not that I would attempt it, is would the mast on a Beneteau 323 or similar boat that already has swept back spreaders stand up without the split backstays? ( assuming no change in the shroud attachment points)

No.

 

[Sailavie1]

When the original rigging gets over 15 years old and needs replacement the more-complex B&R will cost about 3 times what a conventional single or double spreader rig will cost. I get the info from a professional rigger with decades in the business. The $ difference is not absolute, and you might find a deal, but sometimes owners of boats with this setup are *taken aback by this.
Dealers are loathe to discuss it, for obvious reasons.

After an incident at the marina parking Lot this spring, I am replacing my B&R mast and all standing rigging on a 2008 Hunter 25 through Sailboat Owners. Total cost (not including shipping) is $3,200 US. I would be surprised if a new non-B&R mast and standing rigging for a 25 footer cost $1,000.

 

[FastOlson]

Note that a significant part of the cost of replacing a B&R rig is involved in tuning a lot of different parts to the proper pre-load, and this adds time & cost to the process -- as it does for any complicated discontinuous rig.
All quite do-able, but not at the price many sailors might assume if they are not familiar with it.

OTOH, a simple single-spreader rig is less expensive to build, and easier to tune.

 

[Benny17441]

The B&R rig lacks a backstay to accomodate a large roach main sail to provide power. The system design utilizes a small head sail for balance. This is not your traditional rig.

 

[shemandr]

Rigs are engineered and it's best not to re-invent them. But lot's of dingies's have swept back spreaders and no backstays without being "B&R." My Bandit 15 was just one.
I would argue that a sail plan with a large roachy main and small jib is traditional. The mast head rig with its large jibs was an anomaly created by a sail racing rule - IOR.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I will speak in layman’s terms. First, I knew many in this industry as a dealer to include warren Luhrs and the two owners of B & R. Before the B & R rigs, there were many day sailor boats with swept back spreaders with no back stays which worked. True for the B& R Rig but included reverse triangle stays. What you got was a smaller jib, larger mainsail vs a traditional main and no backstay. It allowed more room in the cockpit. Warren Luhrs went with that design first designed for a couple test boats and later individually for each model and tested before any boat was sold. I was also aware there were no design failures but yes to improper rigging, maintenance, accidents, etc... As for tuning, yes it took up to anhour longer to tune once you knew the hang of it with a new boat but was also my policy to test sail each boat and correcting any deficiencies before delivery.

As for technology, equipment changes which is a plus to include in mast roller furling, walk thru transoms with fold down boarding ladders, electronics, comfort, stern rail seats, etc which most sailors appreciate are generally accepted by the cruising sailors. One factor not mentioned is the room allowed in the cockpit. Yes things change but this is what cruising was about comfort. Yes there are the racing sailors and that was addressed as well in technology and the newer design sails is an example

I could go on but my customers appreciated the B&R Rig. Yes there is some disagreement but overall the B&R Rig was accepted