B & R Backstay
- Thread starter Bill19233
- Start date
If head stay bend is the issue, you could consider adding another set of spreaders to keep your prebend more rigid, then beef up the turnbuckles, stays, chainplates, mast step, the mast, compression post, lateral hull stringers, ... . It really doesn't take that much.
-Will(Dragonfly)
-Will(Dragonfly)
Jackdaw, Kloudie 1 and John Tubb gave good advice. B & R were the intials of two gentlemen, that Warren Luhrs, owner of Hunter, used for mast rigging designs and in the 1980's many of the boats had what was commonly known split backstays. In the early 90's the term B & R came more known as backless stayed masts but referred to as B &R. If trying to go to a backstay, the reasons had been noted calling for a smaller mainsail. The no back stays had a larger main which both gents at B & R felt gave more powered to the entire rig plus more comfort in the cockpit. It has also been noted on some racing vessels you do not see backstays. It works and I would not change the concept on the original post for a 2000 340 nor the 26.5
JD yeah I’m a weirdo too on my 84 H31. What I had been told was that they were just beginning to experiment with the B&R rig, but weren’t quite ready to trust it without the backstay.
The forestay sag problem has been know by beach cat racers since 1970. The solution is to maintain mainsheet tension. Lower the traveler if you must, and keep the foot of the sail flat with outhaul. Same thing on my F-24. The mainsheet is your backstay. Barberhauling the jib out a few inches can help, as can intentionally footing a few degrees; multies generally do that anyway, for speed, though the F-24, with a deep board, can point high. It's just not the best way, most of the time.
A deck stepped unstayed rig would be problematic. One of the advantages of the B&R rig was that it could be decked stepped. I may have this wrong but I thought the engineering for the B&R rig came from radio towers. There is a headstay sag issue but but on cruising boats I don't think the headstay has to be bar tight. You have a fairly beamy boat, with often a wing keel, a microwave, refrigerator , air conditioning, 2 -4 8d batteries, hot water, an inverter ... and you wanted to point?
I think I have a handle on all of this now. This is what I found on Wikipedia:
So, I have a 1st gen Hunter B&R rig - as simple as that. As was mentioned here, my boat was design that way.
"The earliest B&R rig was the result of wind tunnel tests and research by Lars Bergstrom and Sven Ridder at Sweden's Royal Institute of Technology.[6] The first generation, built around 1970, included a backstay and was used on many production boats. A patent application for the B&R rig was submitted in 1973 and was granted in 1975.[1] A second generation eliminated the backstay but used solid, deck-mounted struts to brace the lower mast section. In 1982 a second generation B&R rig with 2 forestays was incorporated into the 60 ft (18.3 m) "breakthrough" racing yacht Thursday's Child. On February 13, 1989 Thursday's Child beat the 135 year old clipper ship record sailing 15,000 mi (24,140 km) from New York to San Francisco.[7] A third generation B&R rig mounted the mast on a tripod of struts, had a single forestay and no backstay. In 1993 the third generation was incorporated into the all carbon/kevlar 68 ft (20.7 m) yacht Route 66.[6][8][9][10] The 60 ft (18.3 m) yacht Hunter's Child finished 2nd in the 1994-95 BOC Challenge using a 2nd Generation B&R rig. By 1997 more than 10,000 production sailboats were using the B&R rig.[4][11]"
Further in calling out Hunter as a major adopter of the the B&R, They used the 1st generation rig (with backstay) until at least 1991.So, I have a 1st gen Hunter B&R rig - as simple as that. As was mentioned here, my boat was design that way.
Red Dog,
Appreciate you posting the history. The boats were skippered by Warren Luhrs who owned Hunter. Warren and I were friends. I also knew Lars and Sven when the B&R no back stay was included with the 23.5 which I was included on that boat design for the model year 1992 but introduced by me in 1991. It was interesting as to whether or not that rig would be used. It has proven itself on the smaller boats. Sadly Warren passed away.
It is interesting most daysailors never had a backstay.
Appreciate you posting the history. The boats were skippered by Warren Luhrs who owned Hunter. Warren and I were friends. I also knew Lars and Sven when the B&R no back stay was included with the 23.5 which I was included on that boat design for the model year 1992 but introduced by me in 1991. It was interesting as to whether or not that rig would be used. It has proven itself on the smaller boats. Sadly Warren passed away.
It is interesting most daysailors never had a backstay.
I also found this little gem of information tucked away in the references section:
Development of the B&R Rig, Structural Space Frame and Tripod Support System with Integrated Boom
Development of the B&R Rig, Structural Space Frame and Tripod Support System with Integrated Boom
I haven't installed a backstay or runners on my 340 since I started this thread, and hadn't given it much thought till @Red_Dog dug up this old thread. But, I remember when I had my old 26.5 pulled years ago, they removed the backstay for some reason while the boat was on the hard and the mast stayed up fine. I wouldn't sail that way, though.
I still think the "backstayless" B&R rig has issues with headstay sag when the wind gets around 15 apparent, even with me running my outer shrouds probably a little tighter than I should.
Since I fixed the keel issues a couple weeks ago (a different, even more confusing thread I started recently: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/hydrodynamic-turbulence.194322/#post-1498803), we seem to be pointing better.
In a friendly race on Saturday, in about 10 knots of wind, we pointed with and finished ahead of two Catalina 389's, a Jeanneau 379, a Hunter 37.5, and a Beneteau 40 something. A C&C 41 and C&C 36 finished ahead of us. Video link, only a about a minute and a half and no music...,
A long 25 mile race this Saturday in probably higher winds, we'll see how she does.
I still think the "backstayless" B&R rig has issues with headstay sag when the wind gets around 15 apparent, even with me running my outer shrouds probably a little tighter than I should.
Since I fixed the keel issues a couple weeks ago (a different, even more confusing thread I started recently: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/hydrodynamic-turbulence.194322/#post-1498803), we seem to be pointing better.
In a friendly race on Saturday, in about 10 knots of wind, we pointed with and finished ahead of two Catalina 389's, a Jeanneau 379, a Hunter 37.5, and a Beneteau 40 something. A C&C 41 and C&C 36 finished ahead of us. Video link, only a about a minute and a half and no music...,
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Tower outside the Hirshhorn museum in DC. Amazing what cables can hold up.
-Will (Dragonfly)