I have been working on getting an autopilot to steer my hunter 54 downwind for many years - I have come to the conclusion that its not possible for an autopilot to stear the boat down wind (at high speed) when the wind and seas are up. I know this is the most difficult thing for an autopilot to do - specially when your not DDW - But I singlehand race a lot and everytime I leave the wheel I fall way behind. while Hand steering I do well against all the other boats that are relaxing while their autopliots steer - but I have to sleep sometime. I believe the main problem is that quartering waves spin the boat too much for an autopilot to react to - So I'm considering playing with a new rudder to try and increase the tendancy to turn and to better balance the wheel so that an autopilot doesn't have to work so hard. I have to replace the rudder anyway because it has developed some nasty blisters that have let water into the core - so I don't trust it struturally anymore. The packing is also leaking badly. Note that when I'm cruising the solution is simply to reduce sails - slow down a little and don't worry about the fact that the boat turns all over tha map on many of the waves. - but when I'm short handed racing doing this is now a good option. Just thought I would see if anyone has any thoughts or experiences with making these types of modifications to a Hunter 54.
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Yaw Rate Transducer
On a 40.5 I installed an Autohelm Type 2 linear drive with the ST6000+ control display and added the Gyro Plus Yaw Rate transducer. I recently sailed from Galveston to Key West with 15' quartering seas and the autopilot did a super job at holding course. Of course you need to have the Autohelm system with it's course computer to take advantage of the added input.
On a 40.5 I installed an Autohelm Type 2 linear drive with the ST6000+ control display and added the Gyro Plus Yaw Rate transducer. I recently sailed from Galveston to Key West with 15' quartering seas and the autopilot did a super job at holding course. Of course you need to have the Autohelm system with it's course computer to take advantage of the added input.
Have thought about this
Chuck, My parents used to have a 54. Great boat. We never sailed it hard in big seas, but I've heard about the steering problems. It seems the root of the problem is the rudder is very far forward in order to accomodate the dinghy garage. My thought (and I don't know if it is a good idea, but it is a thought) is to add a "skeg" or daggerboard near the transom or under the swim platform. Somewhere near the stern to give the boat some directional stability. As I think about it a daggerboard would be preferred so you'd only use it when running/reaching hard. The rest of the time it could be removed and have no negative effects on the boat. Just a thought. You need something to give the boat more directional stability or some way to move the rudder further aft. What kind of autopilot are you using? I don't know how to find the answer, but you should investigate what the Open 60's are using. They probably experience similar high speed stability problems.
Chuck, My parents used to have a 54. Great boat. We never sailed it hard in big seas, but I've heard about the steering problems. It seems the root of the problem is the rudder is very far forward in order to accomodate the dinghy garage. My thought (and I don't know if it is a good idea, but it is a thought) is to add a "skeg" or daggerboard near the transom or under the swim platform. Somewhere near the stern to give the boat some directional stability. As I think about it a daggerboard would be preferred so you'd only use it when running/reaching hard. The rest of the time it could be removed and have no negative effects on the boat. Just a thought. You need something to give the boat more directional stability or some way to move the rudder further aft. What kind of autopilot are you using? I don't know how to find the answer, but you should investigate what the Open 60's are using. They probably experience similar high speed stability problems.
Consider the Autohelm windvane....
IMHO, Justin is right. However, instead of adding a skeg board you may want to consider adding an entire accessory rudder, i.e. in the form of an Autohelm (no, not the marine electronics company but a special windvane sold by Scanmar marine). This has multiple advantages: (1) steers better than most autopilots on wind-direction-critical points of sail; i.e. close hauled (including when pinching) or running (even when DDW); (2) does not use any electrical power; (3) provides you with a back-up rudder in case you lose your primary one; (4) provides added directional stability, e.g. when hove-to or pummeled by waves; (5) reduces wear and tear on your primary rudder (which is ususally tied up in a fixed position); and (6) allows you to use the smallest (i.e. lowest cost) tiller pilot to steer the boat very precisely in windless conditions . Disadvantages are: (a) you have to learn to balance your sails more carefully; (b) it takes away most of your open transom (unless mounted on a sturdy swing-away bracket; and (c) it is more expensive than most autopilots. Our Autohelm windvane ("Windy") is one of our most treasured accessories and it works just great! (after having gone through a number of electromechanical wheel- and tillerpilots). Good luck! Flying Dutchman
IMHO, Justin is right. However, instead of adding a skeg board you may want to consider adding an entire accessory rudder, i.e. in the form of an Autohelm (no, not the marine electronics company but a special windvane sold by Scanmar marine). This has multiple advantages: (1) steers better than most autopilots on wind-direction-critical points of sail; i.e. close hauled (including when pinching) or running (even when DDW); (2) does not use any electrical power; (3) provides you with a back-up rudder in case you lose your primary one; (4) provides added directional stability, e.g. when hove-to or pummeled by waves; (5) reduces wear and tear on your primary rudder (which is ususally tied up in a fixed position); and (6) allows you to use the smallest (i.e. lowest cost) tiller pilot to steer the boat very precisely in windless conditions . Disadvantages are: (a) you have to learn to balance your sails more carefully; (b) it takes away most of your open transom (unless mounted on a sturdy swing-away bracket; and (c) it is more expensive than most autopilots. Our Autohelm windvane ("Windy") is one of our most treasured accessories and it works just great! (after having gone through a number of electromechanical wheel- and tillerpilots). Good luck! Flying Dutchman
Why didn't I think of that?
Dang, Henk. I shoulda thought of that. We have an Autohelm vane on our boat too. I agree it does work well and could serve the purpose. The biggest drawback I see for Chuck is the additional drag when the vane isn't in use. I believe Chuck is a racer who did the Singlehanded Transpac on his 54 "Joe" this summer. Good job on the race by the way Chuck.
Dang, Henk. I shoulda thought of that. We have an Autohelm vane on our boat too. I agree it does work well and could serve the purpose. The biggest drawback I see for Chuck is the additional drag when the vane isn't in use. I believe Chuck is a racer who did the Singlehanded Transpac on his 54 "Joe" this summer. Good job on the race by the way Chuck.
Thanks
Thanks to everyone for the Inputs - I have an emegency rudder that I could use to see if a dagger board would help. It attaches to a bracket I made which bolts to the swim platform. I have also condisered a wind vane for stearing but knowing that it wouldn't work down wind I never purchased one. If the emegency rudder helps I may consider this also. I know this will add drag but if it substantially improves directional stability the speed loss due to drag would be small compaired to the increase in speed due to not turning all over the map. The gyros are also a good Idea. Regardless of what I can do for boat performance with dagger boards - I need to replace the AutoNav pilot I just installed. Its a real piece of (*%%$^. From what I can tell by talking to other racers the B&G seams to be the best unit - and it supports a gyro option! Well - I'll do the cheap stuff now while I pay off my credit card bills from the 2000 Singlehanded Transpac - Then I'll load them up again for the 2002 Transpac. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Chuck
Thanks to everyone for the Inputs - I have an emegency rudder that I could use to see if a dagger board would help. It attaches to a bracket I made which bolts to the swim platform. I have also condisered a wind vane for stearing but knowing that it wouldn't work down wind I never purchased one. If the emegency rudder helps I may consider this also. I know this will add drag but if it substantially improves directional stability the speed loss due to drag would be small compaired to the increase in speed due to not turning all over the map. The gyros are also a good Idea. Regardless of what I can do for boat performance with dagger boards - I need to replace the AutoNav pilot I just installed. Its a real piece of (*%%$^. From what I can tell by talking to other racers the B&G seams to be the best unit - and it supports a gyro option! Well - I'll do the cheap stuff now while I pay off my credit card bills from the 2000 Singlehanded Transpac - Then I'll load them up again for the 2002 Transpac. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Chuck
Remedy
I am at a disadvantage here because I have not as yet sailed my boat, but I thought I would chime-in anyway. What the heck it hasnt stopped me yet! Before I purchased the boat I got ahold of an old hunter employee who actually worked on the first 25 54's and he thought that poor downwind control was a primary fault of the design, due to the position of the rudder that is a good 5 feet too far forward. In talking with a friend that is a naval architect, slightly greater control could be achieved with additional length on both the keel and rudder. This probably wont do much, but since I have to do major repair on both I thought it was a good place to start. After starting this work I did discover that quite a bit of bogg was used on the keel for fairing purposes, so I will reduce the thickness and add length without much increase in drag. Same goes for the rudder with an additional couple of inches on both the leading and trailing edges of the appendage. This summer I hope to do some sea trials with the boat then I will decide on what to do next. I fear my boat may be even harder to control than a stock 54. I have lengthened my my I(24 inches) and J(60 inches) with a new mast and a retractable sprit. After reading your messages, a retractable and removable daggerboard sounds like it could work. I think the walk area on the swim platform would make a perfect spot. When things get a bit squirrely you could hop back pull a daggerboard from the garage and slide it in and clamp it down. And when not in use you could remove the board and it wouldnt clutter up the back of the boat. In asking my naval architect friend he believed that it could add in directional control, to which he added that twin rudders placed on either side of the garage would also work. He was kidding! Its seems such a shame that on the original design greater care wasnt paided to steering.
I am at a disadvantage here because I have not as yet sailed my boat, but I thought I would chime-in anyway. What the heck it hasnt stopped me yet! Before I purchased the boat I got ahold of an old hunter employee who actually worked on the first 25 54's and he thought that poor downwind control was a primary fault of the design, due to the position of the rudder that is a good 5 feet too far forward. In talking with a friend that is a naval architect, slightly greater control could be achieved with additional length on both the keel and rudder. This probably wont do much, but since I have to do major repair on both I thought it was a good place to start. After starting this work I did discover that quite a bit of bogg was used on the keel for fairing purposes, so I will reduce the thickness and add length without much increase in drag. Same goes for the rudder with an additional couple of inches on both the leading and trailing edges of the appendage. This summer I hope to do some sea trials with the boat then I will decide on what to do next. I fear my boat may be even harder to control than a stock 54. I have lengthened my my I(24 inches) and J(60 inches) with a new mast and a retractable sprit. After reading your messages, a retractable and removable daggerboard sounds like it could work. I think the walk area on the swim platform would make a perfect spot. When things get a bit squirrely you could hop back pull a daggerboard from the garage and slide it in and clamp it down. And when not in use you could remove the board and it wouldnt clutter up the back of the boat. In asking my naval architect friend he believed that it could add in directional control, to which he added that twin rudders placed on either side of the garage would also work. He was kidding! Its seems such a shame that on the original design greater care wasnt paided to steering.
The H-54 steering problem, again.
The problem of the H-54's steering is something I discussed at length in an earlier (now archived) board here at the HOW. This was what in 1982 Bob Perry claimed would be an inherent fault of the design. Whilst his 'prediction' sounds perfectly plausible and has technical merit, the REAL problem (and potential solution) lies in Hunter's execution of the production boat. In the very week in June 1982 that I first saw Perry's guesswork in print, my brother Steve had just taken his first sail on a production 54. He reported that he had to constantly cycle the wheel back and forth the entire time. It was very disappointing. On any boat with a close-coupled fin keel and rudder this could be expected, but Steve also had experience on our cousin's Herreshoff Fisher's Island 23, with a very 1930s rounded central keel and attached rudder, steered with white knuckles via a long (sometimes flexing!) laminated ash tiller. It was a 'manly' boat with a heavy helm, but easily dealt with using the necessary muscle, an issue that had/has been around for years. Unfortunately Hunter seriously excerbated the problem by gearing the helm so low that lock-to-lock on the wheel is something like 4-1/2 turns (–according to Steve– someone might check this). This is deplorable. In the interest of giving customers a 'power-steering' feel, all it does is require a lot of boring steering work by you or the autopilot. On our Raider 33 'Antigone' we had a large 40-in wheel geared so high that lock-to-lock was like 2-1/2 turns– it steered like a Formula One car (which is where my dad got the idea). For a minor course adjustment you turned it one spoke and that was enough. The trick is in taking a few turns out of the cable round the quadrant and then shortening the cables. Go to a smaller quadrant if needs be (Edson can tell you what the loads will be). Make it so you can sneeze on the wheel and alter course. If corrections will be necessary because of the close-coupled rudder this will make them much smaller and easier to make with one hand. It will also greatly alleviate a lot of small, light, repetitious work by the autopilot. However it will now require more input effort– with less leverage you will have more 'feel' to the helm and the autopilot will definitely know that. Make sure it is strong enough for the task. As I've said before the sad thing is that the dinghy garage insisted-upon by marketing necessitated the rudder being moved forwards. On a hull with this much potential this is an unforgivable sin, especially when you are aware that the original design submitted by my father to fulfill this commission was a very elegant ketch with 1288 sq ft., independently-stayed masts including a standing mizzen forestay, a very usable double cockpit, berths for 6 with two heads, and most importantly, a rudder about 18 inches inboard of a very pretty vertical transom (like Tuesday's Child)– about as perfectly sailable and usable as you could have wanted in a fast cruising boat. (In fact my dad's own recommendation to my cousin Rick was to add a little spade rudder to the Herreshoff boat and 'glass the old rudder solid!) So in light of what I know on this, please don't fault me for having a sour view of yacht-marketing people! [pout] J Cherubini II Cherubini Art & Nautical Design Org. JComet@aol.com
The problem of the H-54's steering is something I discussed at length in an earlier (now archived) board here at the HOW. This was what in 1982 Bob Perry claimed would be an inherent fault of the design. Whilst his 'prediction' sounds perfectly plausible and has technical merit, the REAL problem (and potential solution) lies in Hunter's execution of the production boat. In the very week in June 1982 that I first saw Perry's guesswork in print, my brother Steve had just taken his first sail on a production 54. He reported that he had to constantly cycle the wheel back and forth the entire time. It was very disappointing. On any boat with a close-coupled fin keel and rudder this could be expected, but Steve also had experience on our cousin's Herreshoff Fisher's Island 23, with a very 1930s rounded central keel and attached rudder, steered with white knuckles via a long (sometimes flexing!) laminated ash tiller. It was a 'manly' boat with a heavy helm, but easily dealt with using the necessary muscle, an issue that had/has been around for years. Unfortunately Hunter seriously excerbated the problem by gearing the helm so low that lock-to-lock on the wheel is something like 4-1/2 turns (–according to Steve– someone might check this). This is deplorable. In the interest of giving customers a 'power-steering' feel, all it does is require a lot of boring steering work by you or the autopilot. On our Raider 33 'Antigone' we had a large 40-in wheel geared so high that lock-to-lock was like 2-1/2 turns– it steered like a Formula One car (which is where my dad got the idea). For a minor course adjustment you turned it one spoke and that was enough. The trick is in taking a few turns out of the cable round the quadrant and then shortening the cables. Go to a smaller quadrant if needs be (Edson can tell you what the loads will be). Make it so you can sneeze on the wheel and alter course. If corrections will be necessary because of the close-coupled rudder this will make them much smaller and easier to make with one hand. It will also greatly alleviate a lot of small, light, repetitious work by the autopilot. However it will now require more input effort– with less leverage you will have more 'feel' to the helm and the autopilot will definitely know that. Make sure it is strong enough for the task. As I've said before the sad thing is that the dinghy garage insisted-upon by marketing necessitated the rudder being moved forwards. On a hull with this much potential this is an unforgivable sin, especially when you are aware that the original design submitted by my father to fulfill this commission was a very elegant ketch with 1288 sq ft., independently-stayed masts including a standing mizzen forestay, a very usable double cockpit, berths for 6 with two heads, and most importantly, a rudder about 18 inches inboard of a very pretty vertical transom (like Tuesday's Child)– about as perfectly sailable and usable as you could have wanted in a fast cruising boat. (In fact my dad's own recommendation to my cousin Rick was to add a little spade rudder to the Herreshoff boat and 'glass the old rudder solid!) So in light of what I know on this, please don't fault me for having a sour view of yacht-marketing people! [pout] J Cherubini II Cherubini Art & Nautical Design Org. JComet@aol.com
re: removable daggerboard
Concerning the Daggerboard. In my opinion I think it would be a good idea. But I feel that the swim platform would have to be beefed up. I've been down in the aft section. The glass isn't very thick, especially on the bottom of the swim platform. Another concern would be the actual mounting of the swim platform to the rest of the boat. It looks like they used bolts and alot of 5200. A big dagger board would create alot of force. Look at the size of your average keel bolt. If you take all of these into consideration when sizing the dagger board it might just work. PS. Can anyone e-mail me a photo and/or drawings/specs of the emergency tiller handle (hunter 54). I've found the deck plate but nothing on the boat looks like a handle for it. Please email to shasen@mindspring.com Thanks
Concerning the Daggerboard. In my opinion I think it would be a good idea. But I feel that the swim platform would have to be beefed up. I've been down in the aft section. The glass isn't very thick, especially on the bottom of the swim platform. Another concern would be the actual mounting of the swim platform to the rest of the boat. It looks like they used bolts and alot of 5200. A big dagger board would create alot of force. Look at the size of your average keel bolt. If you take all of these into consideration when sizing the dagger board it might just work. PS. Can anyone e-mail me a photo and/or drawings/specs of the emergency tiller handle (hunter 54). I've found the deck plate but nothing on the boat looks like a handle for it. Please email to shasen@mindspring.com Thanks
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