Automated Mast-Stepping

[nemosuit]

I saw a video about a week ago, that showed what I believe was a Mac26 approaching a low bridge-overpass. The pilot apparently used some motorized device to lower the mast while he proceeded on engine power; and once past the bridge, he used the same device to set the mast right back up again. (I'll see if I can find the video, but meanwhile...)

At the time, I thought how great that would be here in Hilo: since, launching from a trailer in Hilo, you must: (1) put the boat in the water with the mast down; (2) motor beyond the Kamehameha Highway Overpass; and (3) either tie up near Suisan Dock to step the mast (not always an option on busy days), or (4) step the mast while afloat in the bay. Coming back, the reverse is required.

It just seems to me that having the option to motorize the mast-stepping and un-stepping process might be nice; and now that I've found out that Northern Tool DOES ship to Hawaii (and thus, the motorized keel winch I bought can be replaced with a mechanical version) I seem to have the device that will do exactly that.

However, since I've owned my boat a grand total of 25 days (during which she's been in a tent alongside my house) and have never stepped the mast, I need to ask a question:

QUESTION: Is it possible to lower the mast aft to, say, a 45 or 60 degree angle (relative to the waterline) while leaving the port and starboard shroud lines attached, and without stretching them?

As always, thanks in advance.

VBR,

Pat

 

[timebandit]

NO
Check the video at 15:10 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7076785769434785211#) and you can see what is involved.

You have to remove the fore stay to lower the mast, that is all and that involves moving to the bow.

If you know that you will have to go under a bridge just after launching I recommend that you partially raise your mast and then finish after you go under the bridge,

You might want to invest in some perment baby side stays if you are going to do it often.

 

[timebandit]

looke what I found

http://www.dougpile.com/mac19/p11.html

 

[timebandit]

This might help
http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/kk/kk-10877manual.html

 

[nemosuit]

NO
Check the video at 15:10 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7076785769434785211#) and you can see what is involved.

You have to remove the fore stay to lower the mast, that is all and that involves moving to the bow.

If you know that you will have to go under a bridge just after launching I recommend that you partially raise your mast and then finish after you go under the bridge,

You might want to invest in some perment baby side stays if you are going to do it often.

Yep. Now that's what's so valuable (to FNG's like me) about this group. I wasn't even THINKING of getting the mast partly up while still on the trailer, and then simply winching it up the rest of the way once past the bridge. That's where experience shows, and nothing beats real experience. Thanks for the tip, TimeBandit!

Actually, after watching the video, I am rethinking the whole idea of motorizing the process. With a couple support stays, it looks like I could put it up and down singlehandedly without any problem.

Will go watch the other videos now, but you've shown me what I needed to know. Mahalo!

VBR,

Pat

 

[nemosuit]

looke what I found

http://www.dougpile.com/mac19/p11.html

Oh yeah, I can make that. Thanks!

One thing I'm noticing on my boat: the mast bracket attached to the cabin roof doesn't look very strong to begin with; is slightly bent; looks like it's been removed, replaced, and resealed with some cruddy-looking black stuff; and the fiberglass that it's attached to doesn't look all that thick to begin with. (I suppose it must be OK because it's stock; but mine's old, too.)

So anyway, I want to remove the mounting bracket, check it out at least; and re-install it.

While I'm there, I'm thinking of glassing-in a piece of 3/4" plywood to gusset the cabin roof mounting surface for additional strength. Still weighing the pros and cons of doing it; and whether to put it on top of the cabin, or inside on the ceiling.

Whatayathink?

VBR,

Pat

 

[nemosuit]

This might help
http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/kk/kk-10877manual.html

Wow! That's EXCELLENT! There's a lot there which answers questions I've been mulling over for some time now. Great resource! THANKS!

VBR,

Pat

 

[timebandit]

Here is another 22 with mods you might be interested in, I use the little dodad mentioned for the pivot on the deck.

Check all the way to the bottom of the pictures.

http://sites.google.com/site/mac22valentina/home

 

[timebandit]

Just because you never have done it before and remember it is about seven feet to the ground when the boat is on the trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0JONTUZKdc&feature=related

 

[nemosuit]

Here is another 22 with mods you might be interested in, I use the little dodad mentioned for the pivot on the deck.

Check all the way to the bottom of the pictures.

http://sites.google.com/site/mac22valentina/home

Many thanks! I do plan on making a gin pole assembly to make it easier to raise the mast.

VBR,

Pat

 

[nemosuit]

Just because you never have done it before and remember it is about seven feet to the ground when the boat is on the trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0JONTUZKdc&feature=related

Thanks! That's one I have seen. Boy! Those guys must be drinking Espresso!

Interesting that he has rungs on the mast so he can climb it; haven't seen that before.

With double axles and leaf springs, my trailer travels like a dream; but since it isn't stock, I've been wondering if maybe the boat sits too high, and I'll be having trouble at some launch ramps.

Looking at the video, it seems he's on a stock trailer, and his deck height is darn near exactly the same as mine (rub rail at the fifth rung of a standard stepladder). So I think I'm going to be OK come launchtime.

Mahalo for the info. It all helps! :dance:

VBR,

Pat

 

[oreana123]

I've seen the bridge you have to go under just last June. Here is an alternate and cheap way to go: depending on the necessary clearance under the bridge, you can always lower your mast by using the jib halyard, attaching it to the bow rail, tensioning it, removing the stem fitting, and lowering the mast aft by paying out the halyard. You will be limited by the length of your halyard, and at some point, the side stays will not center the mast. But you may be able to use this technique with care. Worth a try for a free solution. John S Boise By the way, Joel S of Idasailor.com will be vacationing in Kona and visiting Hilo for the next two weeks- no better sailor or sailboat mechanic!

 

[nemosuit]

I've seen the bridge you have to go under just last June. Here is an alternate and cheap way to go: depending on the necessary clearance under the bridge, you can always lower your mast by using the jib halyard, attaching it to the bow rail, tensioning it, removing the stem fitting, and lowering the mast aft by paying out the halyard. You will be limited by the length of your halyard, and at some point, the side stays will not center the mast. But you may be able to use this technique with care. Worth a try for a free solution. John S Boise By the way, Joel S of Idasailor.com will be vacationing in Kona and visiting Hilo for the next two weeks- no better sailor or sailboat mechanic!

Thank you very kindly!

Yeah, why'd they have to build an overpass there, anyway? Don't they understand people need to SAIL!?

But seriously, thanks for the technique advice. It's all theoretical to me at this point: still fairing the hull and haven't even practiced stepping the mast in my backyard yet. But I'll give your method a try to see how it works for me. Mahalo nui loa!

I've been a sailboat owner almost one whole month now. I've heard the name Idasailor associated with a very nice laminated tiller handle, but that's all I know about that. It would be nice to meet Joel. My work schedule might allow a trip to the other side of the island at this time; but we just got word this morning that my sister-in-law passed away, so it looks like I'm going on emergency leave and flying to the Mainland.

Ahh, life. And today is the anniversary of the Twin Towers attack. God bless us all.

VBR,

Pat

 

[Norman Staniec]

Your original question: can I leave port and starboard shrouds attached while lowering mast... Here's what I do now with my Mac 22 (but I do intend to improve this method). Yes, I never remove my 2 starboard, 2 port and rear stays when lowering mast. This is true whether I need to partially lower it for passage or getting ready for trailering (just use alot of bungies to secure loose cables). I use my jib and genoa halyards as baby stays (just be sure you connect to deck and tighten to length at longest point- on mine it is the starting point of lift) these help stable the mast for the first 25% or so of the lift. I use the main halyard to lift the mast with rope extension to someome up front (I too am adding a gin pole and will run this rope through pulley attached at bow then run to deck winch). After securing forestay I toss the main hallyard- with plenty of line feed so I don't have to repeat the process because the halyard has raced up the mast- back over the spreader (with practice this can be done in less than 20 or 20 attempts and without falling overboard). I am copying a gin pole setup recommended on this site (search mast raising system). It uses a SS deck plate with pin (marinepartdepot.com, see SS chain stopper for 3/16" to 1/4", around $15) mounted just before the mast step and permenantly stores gin pole up against mast when sailing (nice to have handy for those bridges!). I am using a cement smoother pole extension (around 8' at Lowes, $25) as my gin pole. As I said, I've not done this part yet and I hope it works as stepping the mast, for me, is a tedious and difficult task in an otherwise simple process to launch a Mac. Good luck!

 

[nemosuit]

Your original question: can I leave port and starboard shrouds attached while lowering mast... Here's what I do now with my Mac 22 (but I do intend to improve this method). Yes, I never remove my 2 starboard, 2 port and rear stays when lowering mast. This is true whether I need to partially lower it for passage or getting ready for trailering (just use alot of bungies to secure loose cables). I use my jib and genoa halyards as baby stays (just be sure you connect to deck and tighten to length at longest point- on mine it is the starting point of lift) these help stable the mast for the first 25% or so of the lift. I use the main halyard to lift the mast with rope extension to someome up front (I too am adding a gin pole and will run this rope through pulley attached at bow then run to deck winch). After securing forestay I toss the main hallyard- with plenty of line feed so I don't have to repeat the process because the halyard has raced up the mast- back over the spreader (with practice this can be done in less than 20 or 20 attempts and without falling overboard). I am copying a gin pole setup recommended on this site (search mast raising system). It uses a SS deck plate with pin (marinepartdepot.com, see SS chain stopper for 3/16" to 1/4", around $15) mounted just before the mast step and permenantly stores gin pole up against mast when sailing (nice to have handy for those bridges!). I am using a cement smoother pole extension (around 8' at Lowes, $25) as my gin pole. As I said, I've not done this part yet and I hope it works as stepping the mast, for me, is a tedious and difficult task in an otherwise simple process to launch a Mac. Good luck!

Thanks Norm!

Last night I was asking myself, "Why not just make a heavy duty, close-fit, hinged mast bracket that won't let the mast tip to the side when raising?"

I sat down with paper and pen and started drawing out a few ideas (I do that a lot). It looks like it would be easy to make out of either stainless or aluminum.

Then I started thinking: the biggest drawback is it would impart the forces generated by the mast leaning to the side, directly to the fiberglass roof of the cabin, possibly breaking it. Still, I don't see why that couldn't be reinforced.

A closely-toleranced "elbow mount" for the mast could facilitate mast raising and lowering; and a small motorized winch at the bow would make the process about as ergonomic as power windows.

It seems like such a good idea, I'm wondering why someone hasn't thought of it before?

Am I missing something here? Is there a problem with the idea I'm not seeing? Do you think people would be interested in a way to simplify and/or automate the mast raising / lowering process?

Just brainstorming it, but I think I could pop out a crude, "proof of concept" prototype in under four hours.

Whatayathink?

VBR,

Pat

 

[ffaubert]

The gin pole really needs to be "removable", either taken off completely or folding up to the mast.

Macs have deck sweeper sails, limited foredeck area and not much in the line of lifelines on the foredeck.The pole isn't used that often and you don't want to have something more to trip over if you need to go out onto the foredeck at sea.

One of the major things is the baby stays that keep the mast from wanting to move sidewise. The mast isn't that heavy so "up and down" isn't a problem. It's the "side to side".

With the baby stays, I can put the mast up or down by myself with a simple block and tackle in about 10 minutes. Without the baby stays, it takes three of us to do the same thing safely.

 

[Sumner]

.....Am I missing something here? Is there a problem with the idea I'm not seeing?.....

You answered your own question here....

.....Then I started thinking: the biggest drawback is it would impart the forces generated by the mast leaning to the side, directly to the fiberglass roof of the cabin, possibly breaking it. Still, I don't see why that couldn't be reinforced.

A closely-toleranced "elbow mount" for the mast could facilitate mast raising and lowering; and a small motorized winch at the bow would make the process about as ergonomic as power windows.........

... that tall mast can put a lot of leverage on the top of the cabin with what you had envisioned. It would take a lot of effort to solve that problem and involve a lot of expensive additions to the boat.

The baby stays....

... (middle two arrows above) that Frank mentioned take all of maybe 30 seconds to attach or remove and solve all of those problems. Like he said it is easy to raise the mast by yourself even on the larger 26 with the baby stays, gin pole, boat winch and cleats behind the winch so that you can cleat it off at any point if needed to clear the lines. The method is fast, cheap and works. I like reinventing the wheel, but this is one wheel that doesn't need reinventing in my opinion. More here if you haven't seen it......

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/rigging-2.html

Sum

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[timebandit]

May I suggest that you first put your boat in the water and see how violent she rolls when hit by a wake from the side without sail.

 

[nemosuit]

You answered your own question here....)

Thanks Sum. That's how it looked to me, too. The roof can be reinforced, but it will probably be another extensive mod. And other factors usually become apparent upon additional consideration of such things. Suddenly the simple elbow bracket isn't so simple after all. The need doesn't really seem to be there, as well. Just a thought....

VBR,

Pat