At present we have three threads running

[Ross]

concerning the interfacing of GPS and computers. This has caused me to wonder if I am among the very few that rely on paper charts and magnetic compass for setting my course and use the GPS for fixing my position on occasion. I have no doubt that everything that was done in the past with paper charts, dividers, and parallel rules is now done faster and more accurately with GPS and a computer. But I would no more consider leaving port without paper charts than I would consider leaving the house without my pants. My GPS tells me exactly where in the world that I am but the charts tell me where "where" is and what is all around it.I have sailed my home waters for long enough that I know by land marks my position if I venture into unknown waters then I want to know what I can expect for the next several miles. I can spread my charts on the galley table and study them with my crew.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

old school

Having done it with and without chartplotters, I can't imagine going back to the old days of taking sights and reducing bearings and LORAN points on paper charts. I would agree that having proper charts and knowing how to plot a position is important, however, in a critical situation such as making a split-second decision, it's FAR faster and more reliable to simply look at the chartplotter. A crisis isn't the time to start pulling charts and plotting a position. Electronics are not always reliable but the counter-argument is also true - that plotting positions on a paper chart can incorporate all kinds of "operator error", even with a readout type GPS and therefore can be equally unreliable.I wonder if the trend now is to have backup chartplotters?

 

[higgs]

You probably are one of the few

I have cruised before the time of loran, much less GPS, so I do know how to plot position on a paper chart the old fashion way. It is askill I like to make sure I deep sharp, but nowdays, I usually let my chartplotter do the job.I did cruise the small boat channel in Georgian Bay this summer, where a chart plotter, with 30 ft of accuracy, could put you on submerged rocks. Not having electronic Canadian charts for my chart plotter, I did have to rely on plotting my course using visual, seat of the pants navigation aided by GPS locations. It was an interesting challenge and anyone who has done the trip will appreciate the navigational challenges that go beyond a chart plotter.

 

[Ross]

Are any sailing dicisions split=second?

On my boat we go pretty slow.

 

[Scott21120]

Ross, live a little - try leaving with no pants

Actually, I have no charts on either of my GPS units - I have a GPSMAP 76 that has nav markers, but I always plot our course on paper charts first then put the waypoints into the GPS. I keep the GPS at the helm, but if it is not a familiar route, the charts or chartkits are in a waterproof case in the cockpit.

 

[Terry Cox]

I'm on Don's side. I keep paper charts as backup..

but I do all my navigation on our Garmin 178C. What a wonderful piece of navigation equipment. It shows me all the paper chart hazards beneath and on the water within a several mile radius. I find it spot on. We've cruised with this system for several thousand miles in PNW waters including much of it in BC territory. The two regions that I have include more than 250 harbor, channel and main waterway charts that cover the Puget Sound to the north end of Vancouver Island, inside and out, all on a data card one half the size of a book of matches.Terry

 

[Benny]

We use a chartplotter for day sailing but

will not leave the dock on a long passage without paper charts of the intended sailing areas. The way I see it the advantages of a paper chart are; 1) It is indeed easier to plan a trip over a paper chart.  2) You can write on it, and keep records of trips in the area. 3) A paper chart, a compass and a decent timekeeper will get you anywhere. 4) I figure the chances of a chart plotter failure are much greater than the  magnetic pole reversing itself or the continents realigning. 5) You can also set your beer on them preserving the teak finish on your navigation table. Make sure you use land areas for that purpose as  corrugated paper screws up your lat/lon fixes. 6) Papers charts can be traded and written notes can be invaluable. 7) You can also plot movement of other vessels and even currents. Invaluable when crossing the Gulfstream.On a passage we will draw a rumbh line to our destination and on an hourly basis will plot our actual position fixes as furnished by GPS. This way we check on our progress and must important will have a fairly good idea of our location should the elctronics fail.Computers are amazing but there are many things that can be done faster with a pencil and a piece of paper. That's where I draw the line.

 

[CalebD]

It is one thing to want and another to have

all the most modern bells and whistles that are out there. The technology is amazing and new merchant mariners learn all about them but they also learn all the old school stuff. A bit of water on a chart will not seriously damage it but a spilled glass of wine (or worse a beer) on a laptop keyboard spells disaster. A sextant, compass or simple clock can survive a little exposure to water too. That is why they were used for centuries with mixed results (many groundings and lives lost at sea). Why do you suppose they call it "dead reckoning"? Someone suggested that the trend will be to keep a backup chartplotter. I think that the trend will be for more distress calls coming into the CG by boaters who have lost their GPS/computer due to any number of vulnerabilities that these units inherently have. Without their beloved computer aided navigation they will be helpless. I know I am eggzadurating but hey, Joshua Slocum sailed without all that crap.Most of the replies to this thread have some experience with other forms of navigation so there are enough of us who know that there is more to the world of navigation than a chartplotter/GPS. The trouble is that younger folks may not know about all the backup practices that make the world safe and ok without them. Plus, once you start using it you can get addicted.Note to self: get a sextant and learn to use it.

 

[Rick A]

Used GPS since it came out....

I've used GPS for mapping and navigating since it first became commercially available, mostly related to aviation. I've flown all over northern Alberta and Canada, mostly as a passenger on contract aircraft working for us, and have literally logged several thousand hours in the co-pilot seat during my career.All pilots use GPS, I always carry a map case, usually with better maps than most pilots do. I keep a map folded on my lap and track our progress as we move from point A to B. This is a habit most pilots have lost.I've had the GPS signal fail, and the units shut down only to have the pilot turn to me and ask if I knew where we were.... Not what you need to hear when the weather is turning down, in a very remote area, and fuel is a long ways off.Use the GPS, and enjoy the benefits that it brings to simplify navigation, but always, always keep your charts close at hand and use them.

 

[Lou 14643]

I use my handheld GPS as an adjunct...

to paper charts, but always plot courses, distance, time on paper. I find the GPS is a "fun" backup. The one place I use it for primary information is speed. Since my O'Day 272 does not have a knotmeter, the GPS gives me an indication of sail trim, whether, and how much I'm fighting a current, etc. I also would never think of leaving the dock without my chartbook (and my cruising guide). I suppose one day when I can afford all the bells and whistles, I'd love to have integrated electronic charts, etc., but I honestly don't think I'll need them. I'll still always take paper, and I even make sure I've got redundant paper on board. After all, what happens when the chart flys overboard?

 

[jimq26]

Not always the same I understand.

The electronic and paper charts frequently don't match. Paper charts in many instances show all nav hazards, whereas the electronic version miss many of them.Remember that BC Ferry that hit the "island" and sank last year? That "island" did not appear on their electronic nav charts - but was there in plain site on their paper charts. Guess which version they were using?

 

[tom]

GPS on Laptop computer

I recently added a gps to my laptop computer mostly for fun. Coming back from Port Saint Joe FL I decided to follow the GPS's recommended route instead of my own reckoning. The GPS got us there but for some reason routed us about 15 miles down a dirt road full of mud puddles. Covered my truck and kayaks with mud. Another time there was a bridge out and it wasn't noted and several times our map position has been 1/4 mile or more off of the road. Notong the errors in position was scarey in that in a boat that could easily put me on the rocks. My boat came with a Loran that we have used a couple of times and we have a handheld GPS that we use rarely. My wife likes to use it to plot us on paper charts to confirm that we hare where I think that we are located. Usually I am right but a couple of times I was wrong. Usually early in the morning or late in the afternoon. I noticed that Maptech is now offering CD's with their chartkits. Best of both worlds?? I think that part of the problem is adapting to scale. If you are looking at a paper chart you become acutely aware that a period may be an acre on the ground. But it is easy to forget this fact when you are zooming in on the e-chart. On some scales the symbol for your boat can be 1/2 mile or more across.  Another problem with GPS even handheld is loss of accuracy. We have had the GPS tell us that we were on the beach when we were well offshore and tell us we were well offshore when we were between the jetties.  My eyes have never made this mistake. Give my eyes a pair of binoculars with a compass, and a chart and I usually know my location. Dead reckoning has worked when I was out of sight of land. GPS is great but everything that I've read says not to depend upon any one piece of information to determine your position.

 

[Ross]

The office of coast survey has available for

down loading the coast pilots for the USA. You can down load by chapter or volume.mf3jhttp://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/nsd/cpdownload.htm

 

[Chris]

Ross, we went to the same school.

We use a handheld GPS into which I put waypoints, using my PC at home, and then download the route. I plot the course on a paper chart which travels with us. We then steer a compass course towards the way point with the GPS on and if we deviate from the course, the alarm tells us we are off course. I can then make a correction (perhaps tidal flow was stronger than I had allowed for or a particular current set us further than predicted, or leeway was less, etc) to compensate. Any major changes I pencil in on the chart. I keep frequently sailed courses in the GPS and on the PC as "trips" to easily access them. The GPS is terrific at giving an accurate position as long as we use paper to see where that Lat and Long is in relation to our surroundings. I will not rely on electronics other than this. Offshore, the same applies, but I carry a sextant as back up. We plot on paper and monitor position (lat and Long, not chart) from the GPS. Every so often I note the actual Lat and Long on the paper chart as a fix. Coastal, these are supported by land fixes.

 

[DaveH20533]

Charts and GPS

After 23 years in the US Navy I used charts to no end. I like the GPS for quick looks but would much rather plan out a trip on paper. Although new to sailing I have done alot of navigating via chart and find it most fascinating. Don't we sail at times to get back to the way it used to be?

 

[Ross]

Chris, The sextant won't be any help without

an almanac. The "Old Farmers Almanac" is published in Boston and sunrise and sunset ans local apparent noon are all based on Boston's meridan. With a little juggling you can get accurate "noon sights" from even that little book.As long as you don't get east-west mixed up you can find land on LI Sound. D:

 

[Ross]

I copied a section of the Puget Sound Coast Pilot

the light.(37)Marrowstone Point, the E point at the entrance to Port Townsend, is low at its extremity, but rises abruptly to a bluff about 120 feet high. The buildings of the former Fort Flagler, now a recreation area of the Washington Parks system, are about 0.5 mile to the S. The fort pier, with depths of about 20 feet at its face, is in poor condition. A fish haven is near the pier in about 48°05'28"N. 122°41'23"W. Marrowstone Point Light (48°06'06"N., 122°41'16"W.), 28 feet above the water, is shown from a 20-foot white square structure on the E edge of the point; a fog signal is at the light. Piling of former piers and anchor piling for wartime submarine nets extend up to 500 yards offshore 0.6 and 1.6 miles W

 

[KorculaChris]

Sorry, Ross

I didn't state that along with a sextant we would also carry the reduction tables and etc. That was a given! I haven't done any offshore in years, but in another 3-4 we might be crossing the pond to retidre in UK, where I am from.

 

[tom]

Most of the time it doesn't matter

Most of the time it doesn't matter exactly where you are located. Typical sail to Port Saint Joe. Go out through the jetties. Get into 30-40' of water and sail southeast 20 miles. Wide entrance to the bay. Enter bay find place to anchor. Wheeler lake sail out of the marina Sail towards dam 12 miles or so away. Turn more north once past the paper mill. There are a few rocks and stumps but they aren't a problem unless you really hug the shore. But basically it doesn't matter exactly where I am located throughout the day. But then there are times when it matters a lot. But usually this occurs near shore with visual cues as to your location.   Typically I check the chart for hazards. Then I note the location of those hazards and landmarks nearby. Then I usually plan my sail to not get too close to hazards and then just enjoy the sail.   E-charts have a big advantage if they are regularly updated. Paper charts can be out of date long before they are sold. Again never rely on one piece of information. If the chart says 20' deep and my depth sounder says 10' I believe my depthsounder. If I see a sunken trawler with my eyes and it's not on the chart I believe my eyes.

 

[sand sailor]

whats a gps ???

if it was easy to do everyone would be doing it then it wouldnt be fun any morejust my opinion