Arghhh...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
It's no wonder some yards and people who work on boats get a bad rap.....

Two weeks ago I got a call from a lobsterman who was referred to me by another one of my lobsterman customers. He told me that his boat sunk last summer and had been re-wired but stuff was not working and the guy who charged him 20K to rewire it would not return calls. I finally got out there yesterday.

His deck lights had failed to operate
His high water alarm and forward bilge pump had failed
His primary VHF had failed
His sounder was inoperable (pretty critical tool for a lobsterman)
His wash down pump had stopped working
His starboard nav light was inoperable

So I get there and notice that all the wire is indeed UL1426 marine wire, this was good. The bad part was the largest conductor on this 40 foot lobsterboat was 14GA, other than the battery cables for starting the 700HP John Deer diesel, which are also undesized. The vast majority of the wiring was just 16GA but some of it 18GA!

The guy who installed it, installed two DC panels. One in the cabin and one in the wheel house. The one in the wheel house is NOT up to the task of offshore fishing and continuous salt water spray. It is at best a panel for below decks on a Glastron lake boat. Three of the switches had already failed to pass current and two breakers were already toast. You could read voltage on them, which tricked the owner, but they would not pass any sort of load.

The panel was also installed with "friction fit" connectors not ring terminals. This is the last type of connection you want on any boat let alone a boat that fishes nearly 365 days per year, in all weather, on the ocean. The sounder and VHF had both simply vibrated off the breaker Others were so badly corroded, in 14 months, that it required sand paper and a SS brush to clean them then a heavy dollop of terminal grease to try and keep at at bay until he has more time to fix it correctly.

The deck light switch was toast and would not pass current. I replaced it and then measured the current draw. 14A on that circuit alone, massive spot lights, with 16GA wire of about 50' round trip. The wire warmed to the touch quickly.

The installer used some, but charged the owner for all heat shrink crimp terminals. He then used a mix of non heat shrink and heat shrink. The only terminals that were actually "heat shrunk" were in the bilge. All the others were not even melted, just crimped on. The nav light circuit, which is close to the pot hauler, was full of salt water as the butt splice had never been shrunk and was in a "catch rain" orientation. The crimp tool used was cheap and ripped half the heat shrink anyway. Many of the crimps simply came apart due to corrosion including the nav light circuit. The nav light circuit is a "critical" circuit that is not supposed to have any more than 3% voltage drop, he far exceeded that with the 18GA wire feeding it..

The second DC panel in the cabin was installed in the companionway hanging on a square piece of polycarbonate with two screws holding it dangling from the top. In rough seas, with foulies on, it is tough for a grown many to fit out this companionway let alone not grab the sharp corner of the DC panel with a sleeve. This is exactly what happened and why the remaining circuits refused to operate. The panel had been ripped from its roots and pulled a bunch or connectors right off too.

This poor owner also had a bad experience with the guy who installed his "propane" system for cleaning grass off traps on his last boat. It was installed with NO solenoids, propane locker or any other safety device that might even come close to satisfying ABYC guidelines or USCG standards for inspected vessels. As a result his boat blew up on the mooring sending the propane bottle over 100 feet into the air according to witnesses. The boat was totaled putting him out of work for nearly an entire year while his new boat was built. Some guys just can't catch a break........

Oh and the boat price as of yesterday for lobster was 2.95 per pound, only slightly more than I was getting in the early to mid 80's..... With diesel at $4.50 per gallon......:doh:
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,219
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Amazing..
probably OK for a seldom used lake boat.. (which the shop guy probably is used to) but has no business on a work boat.. So now the poor owner will have paid twice for proper wiring..
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Amazing..
probably OK for a seldom used lake boat.. (which the shop guy probably is used to) but has no business on a work boat.. So now the poor owner will have paid twice for proper wiring..

We are working to keep the cost down and he is getting in touch with his insurance comapny to see what may be able to be done. We are starting with the critical circuits and the wheel house DC panel. He also wants a second Garmin plotter installed which will require a re-do of that circuit too.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
Hate to say it but lawsuit? How bad does a 20k job have to be before this is the option.
It would seem that by charging the guy for using proper connectors then using bad ones is an act of fraud.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Hate to say it but lawsuit? How bad does a 20k job have to be before this is the option.
It would seem that by charging the guy for using proper connectors then using bad ones is an act of fraud.
I suppose but when I asked if the number of them or type was listed on the invoice he said the invoice was just a lump sum, "wire lobster boat".. What was "said" and what was done were different.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
I usually swim the opposite direction, so cant help feeling the owner has some responsibility in all of this. The boat is his livelihood, he is its captain. He should have some basic understanding of all its systems, basic mechanics, basic electricity, plumbing, etc... And he should know when things dont look right.

No doubt the "electrician" was incompenent at best, but the owner should have been overseeing the work and known when to pull the plug. If he wasnt out fishing he should still have been aboard keeping an eye on the nit wit.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I usually swim the opposite direction, so cant help feeling the owner has some responsibility in all of this. The boat is his livelihood, he is its captain. He should have some basic understanding of all its systems, basic mechanics, basic electricity, plumbing, etc... And he should know when things dont look right.

No doubt the "electrician" was incompenent at best, but the owner should have been overseeing the work and known when to pull the plug. If he wasnt out fishing he should still have been aboard keeping an eye on the nit wit.
He does have a "basic understanding" of diesels, electronics, the COLREGS, hydraulics and electrical... This is not his live aboard, it is his work boat.

He does have a good understanding of the systems and tried to trouble shoot them but when he got 12V at the switches and the circuit continuity tested okay how was he to know that a switch can pass voltage but not current? I know that but I would not expect the average Joe to expect that. I also don't expect the average Joe to do voltage drop calculations when they are told by the installer they've been taken into account.

He did question lots of things including the DC panel in the wheel house but was assured it was perfectly acceptable for a weather deck locations and was "designed for such". It does not help that when he went to the Blue Sea web site, to check the guys claims, they also claimed it was good for such an application: http://bluesea.com/category/105/84/products/8261

I know this panel is NOT suitable for use in the wheel house of a lobster boat but that is not from reading the Blue Sea web site it is from learned experience.

What he needed at a minimum was this: http://bluesea.com/category/105/27/productline/118

But again even with that panel he still needs to enclose it, especially on a working boat such as this that fishes off shore in the middle of winter..
 

Bob J.

.
Apr 14, 2009
775
Sabre 28 NH
There are people like this in all industries. What a shame for the boatowner, 20K is alot of cash.

Although it's probably not the case in this situation, I've come to the conclusion that people are just stupid when getting prices. Seems all they hear is blah, blah, blah, $10,000.00
 
Dec 2, 2003
1,637
Hunter 376 Warsash, England --
Sounds to me if his 'Electrician' normally wires houses etc. In these cases the volt drop in cables is of much less importance than their current carrying capacity so much lighter gauges are common.
Also such things as proper ring tags with heat shrink crimps for the wires are almost unknown to such operatives.
And houses only go to sea in floods when the insurer has to pay for the damage - so the effects of salt atmosphere, water and spray would be unknown to him.

However that particular electrician might possibly have been an accessory to manslaughter - as the previous boat's gas installer would have been if anyone had been killed.
I'd bet the electrician's insurance wouldn't have covered it either.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
There is a great opportunity for someone who is willing and able to do dependable work at a fair price and back it with a warrenty. No one minds paying a fair price for proper work but robbing from the blind should be a crime.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Sounds to me if his 'Electrician' normally wires houses etc. In these cases the volt drop in cables is of much less importance than their current carrying capacity so much lighter gauges are common.
Well, licensed 'house' or industrial electricians in the US and Canada know about wire sizing and line drop, and there are electrical codes and inspectors and such, so I wouldn't think that a licensed electrician would have grossly undersized any conductors. The minimum gauge for house AC wiring here is AWG 14, btw.

So I'm thinking it's more an electrician wannabe, or an unqualified contractor bidding on insurance work.

(Wow - $20k to do a rewire of a lobster boat. MS - isn't that kind of inflated, even assuming correct materials and competent installation?)
 

PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,522
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
How did this electrician get the job in the first place? Didn't the skipper ask around about who does a good job? Should re-wiring an entire boat cost as much as $20K? It's a Lobsterboat, not a Hinckley. One guy shouldn't take more than 3-4 weeks, and with perhaps $2000 of materials (or how much $ ?), a $20K total means a steep hourly rate. (Wish I could get that much, but i'm stuck at about $60/hr for tutoring.) It sounds like he called in a friend of a friend who stuck him with a tab and a bunch of phoney platitudes. Caveat emptor, though I'm sorry he got taken. Of course, the fact that the boat sank in the first place is not a good indication about the owner's focus.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,760
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
How did this electrician get the job in the first place? Didn't the skipper ask around about who does a good job? Should re-wiring an entire boat cost as much as $20K? It's a Lobsterboat, not a Hinckley. One guy shouldn't take more than 3-4 weeks, and with perhaps $2000 of materials (or how much $ ?), a $20K total means a steep hourly rate. (Wish I could get that much, but i'm stuck at about $60/hr for tutoring.) It sounds like he called in a friend of a friend who stuck him with a tab and a bunch of phoney platitudes. Caveat emptor, though I'm sorry he got taken. Of course, the fact that the boat sank in the first place is not a good indication about the owner's focus.

I certainly can't add up 20k worth of wiring but this was a boat that sunk so everything was new not just the wiring. He's got 8k in just Garmin gear, inverter, bus heater, VHF's, etc. etc.. I suspect in electronic equipment alone he's over 12k.

His two sternmen were supposed to be cleaning the bottom during a dry out tide, which they had regularly done. The boat was propped up waiting for the tide to come back in and the two guys left it there and went to get supplies. As the water came up a 2000 pound tub of secured bait broke free and slid to the starboard side at the stern and the water entered the scuppers and filled the boat. By the time the sternman got back the only thing visible was the steaming light....
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
I certainly can't add up 20k worth of wiring but this was a boat that sunk so everything was new not just the wiring. He's got 8k in just Garmin gear, inverter, bus heater, VHF's, etc. etc.. I suspect in electronic equipment alone he's over 12k.
Ah - that $20k includes all gear too.

The explanation for the submerging sounds... fishy :D
 

Erieau

.
Apr 3, 2009
209
Oday 25 Erieau
Ah - that $20k includes all gear too.

The explanation for the submerging sounds... fishy :D
:doh:

MS, I've learned more about proper marine wiring from your descriptions of poor wiring practice than I've ever learned from books on how to do it right.
Thank you for posting these tales. They're always food for thought, especially when I'm tempted to cut corners myself.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Some thoughts. I may have been to hard on the Capt, I just thought he should have seen the light wire gauge and stopped the work.

All states require an electricians license on residential and commercial buildings. Most have no such requirement for cars or boats. Anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a marine electrician.

Because the boat is a commercial vessel however, and has employees, I wonder if there are in fact requirements, if not for physically having a license, at least requiring the work meet minimum codes for a work environment.

My dad was not a licensed electrician. But he totally rewired an old house we bought bringing everything up to code and I learned a great deal. Like the importance of reading a chart on wire gauges vs load and distance. Its not rocket science.

Bummer about the sinking. I wonder if they still work for him.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
:doh:

MS, I've learned more about proper marine wiring from your descriptions of poor wiring practice than I've ever learned from books on how to do it right.
Thank you for posting these tales. They're always food for thought, especially when I'm tempted to cut corners myself.
I have a textbook on basic aviation mechanics. Very technical. It covers every aspect of mechanical work you would find on any airplane over a 100 year span. Fasteners and threads, fabric, wood and metal repairs, welding, brazing, and soldering, riveting stitching and sewing, pipe and tubing connections and routing, electrical connections and routing, hose connections and routing, etc., to the highest aircraft standards. Reading through it it shows you how stuff "should" be done. The only automotive work I ever came across that even came close to those standards was in an old Jaguar. Some of the factory grade stuff I have seen in boats borders on nightmarish, the very worst I have seen.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
me said:
The explanation for the submerging sounds... fishy :D
:doh:
I was referring to the story about the guys leaving the dry boat and not returning til high tide.

(but mainly it was an opportunity for a pun. Guess the big grin means different things to different people)
 

Erieau

.
Apr 3, 2009
209
Oday 25 Erieau
I was referring to the story about the guys leaving the dry boat and not returning til high tide.

(but mainly it was an opportunity for a pun. Guess the big grin means different things to different people)
I got it. That's why I stuck the "Doh" smiley in there.
I don't pass up many chances for a good (bad) pun either.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
... my bad.
[insert huge blushing icon here][no, I mean HUGE]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.