Pretty much word for word my experience with the yacht yard I have been at for 12 years. No complaints. They have treated me well.
Are we too tolerant of boatyard culture?
- Thread starter markwbird
- Start date
A single sentence would have sufficed. Sorry but omitting that simple detail as well as the yard's side of the story doesn't lend much credibility.
My experience is that these tales of problems are often self-inflicted. Clearly, every profession has its poor performers but that's stating the obvious. It's what we do to avoid them that makes a constructive narrative.
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The difference between doctors, auto mechanics, etc is the ability to place a marine lien on a boat title very easily or if the boat is on the hard, just refuse to launch it. I know somebody who did an engine replacement. Estimate was around $20,000 which was normal for the work ordered. But the final bill was $35,000. They handed him a bill for $15,000 just for pulling the engine. He wanted to leave at that point but they refused to launch him. He talked to police and others in law and they all said they couldn't or wouldn't do much even tho they knew this yard has done this before.
There was this guy who was having a large custom sailing yacht built. He commissioned a yard to build her, settled on the final design details and paid his down payment. Then, he told my father, with great pride in his diligence at keeping the whole process under his control, "I bought an apartment just down the street so I can keep an eye on their progress and make sure they get it right."
My father told him, "Don't do that. That is a bad idea. You are going to drive yourself and the yard nuts. What you want to do is leave them alone to do the job, they have a good reputation. Then, after you take possession of the boat, make a list of all the things that are wrong with it and take her to another yard and have them fix it."
Seems like weird advice.
Over the time that the boat was being built, the friend visited several times with tales of woe and was a wreck about how things were going at the yard. He was constantly correcting and prodding them. Finally the boat was done. The friend went to pickup his new boat and instead, the owner of the yard handed him a check. His deposit. "We have decided we are not selling you the boat because it just isn't worth it. You caused of so much loss of time redoing and, caterring to your needs that we are looking at a loss by selling to you." (I'm paraphrasing, I don't know what the guy said, but that was the gist of it and his arguement in court as to why the contract was voided). The yard won the court case.
-Will (Dragonfly)
My father told him, "Don't do that. That is a bad idea. You are going to drive yourself and the yard nuts. What you want to do is leave them alone to do the job, they have a good reputation. Then, after you take possession of the boat, make a list of all the things that are wrong with it and take her to another yard and have them fix it."
Seems like weird advice.
Over the time that the boat was being built, the friend visited several times with tales of woe and was a wreck about how things were going at the yard. He was constantly correcting and prodding them. Finally the boat was done. The friend went to pickup his new boat and instead, the owner of the yard handed him a check. His deposit. "We have decided we are not selling you the boat because it just isn't worth it. You caused of so much loss of time redoing and, caterring to your needs that we are looking at a loss by selling to you." (I'm paraphrasing, I don't know what the guy said, but that was the gist of it and his arguement in court as to why the contract was voided). The yard won the court case.
-Will (Dragonfly)
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My broker was also my repair yard. I felt he didn't treat me right on the last bottom paint. So of course he goes right to the fight and says "so now your not going to pay me?!" I said of course I am, just hand me the bill but know it's the last one and what ever it is will be cheap to be rid of you. It's time to paint the bottom again, he's not getting the work. Next season we're selling this boat and getting a larger one, he's not getting the sale or the purchase commission. So who really lost. Not me. For a couple of bucks more than the quote he lost a LOT of cash and I'm rid of an A`hole. Never worry about money, just go make more. Believe me they feel it when you walk. So after this unsatisfying service I will not use this particular sailboat repair business in Haverstraw NY again.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,015
So true. The newer boat owner is vulnerable. Even the experienced boater with new problems can find it challenging to get responsive quotes and performance.
One of the issues is with individuals who claim professional skills but are limited in experience to Boat Marine Work as in washing, oil changes, and trash talk. Even when you get recommendations, you need to verify what the individual has done and what results have been achieved.
Quality work is a rare treat to experience. A big bill does not guarantee that you will receive this coveted level of results.
Ask questions. Specify the work to be done. Agree on a price and then verify that the work promised has been completed. Do not pay for work that is incomplete. Hold back funds in escrow until all is completed.
Before beginning any boat work >$500, I always ask...
What are the Warranties?
Would you put those in writing, please?
The last two jobs...
1) Bottom paint color was supposed to be BLUE and got RUST RED. Me, the big dummy, said I would split the new BLUE paint costs. One gallon of new BLUE =$290
The cool thing is I got 2 bottom paints. If the diver see a bit of RED, I know that I scraped something.
2) New Raymarine Radar and MFD. They had to return to boat 3 times to get it right. They broke my $75 in line Analog DC Amp meter. Called them a year later for new Wind Meter.
Them:"We don't want to work with you anymore!"
Me: "Why?"
Them: "Too hard to please and we spent too many unpaid hours on your boat!"
Me: "Send me any bills for unpaid work, please"
Them: Silence...
Liens are stopped with a Warranty or a Bond. Bond disputes take place in a courtroom, but you get your boat.
Jim...
PS: Always require a "Not to Exceed" clause and/or a "Signed Change Order".
What are the Warranties?
Would you put those in writing, please?
The last two jobs...
1) Bottom paint color was supposed to be BLUE and got RUST RED. Me, the big dummy, said I would split the new BLUE paint costs. One gallon of new BLUE =$290
The cool thing is I got 2 bottom paints. If the diver see a bit of RED, I know that I scraped something.2) New Raymarine Radar and MFD. They had to return to boat 3 times to get it right. They broke my $75 in line Analog DC Amp meter. Called them a year later for new Wind Meter.
Them:"We don't want to work with you anymore!"
Me: "Why?"
Them: "Too hard to please and we spent too many unpaid hours on your boat!"
Me: "Send me any bills for unpaid work, please"
Them: Silence...
Liens are stopped with a Warranty or a Bond. Bond disputes take place in a courtroom, but you get your boat.
Jim...
PS: Always require a "Not to Exceed" clause and/or a "Signed Change Order".
Many boat owners do in fact initiate work based on a phone call agreement, but they tend to have last names like Vanderbilt or Rockefeller. There are guys in Annapolis who regard $5k as the weekly boat budget, and treat it like pocket cash. Their trades guys love them and keep 'em on speed dial response! The rest of us are better served by detailed work scopes and parts pricing. Jim makes some good points about asking for warranties and bonds, and many tradesmen won't be able to deliver either - a sign that you may be dealing with a marginal vendor. But you don't need to do much more that ask lots of questions up front and get the answers in writing. If someone can't answer your questions and resolve them to a written quote you probably aren't getting the deal you thought you were getting.
The "Bond" I was referring too was not a "performance type" Bond from the Boat Yard, but that would be good too.
Example:
1) Boat Yard Puts a Lien on your boat. They must file that Lien with a Court.
2) You personally go to a Bank and buy a "Bond" that requires TWO signatures. Your Attorney and the Boat yard.
3) You post your Bond with that Court, along with declaration of forfeiture.
4) That Bond will then be given to the Boat Yard
The Boat Yard MUST release your boat!!!
Now the Court will decide the outcome. Hopefully based on their Warranty.
Jim...
as an engineer who has worked on all my boats and rv s for 40 + years i note: 1/ i research the things i'm trying to fix to try to figure out ahead of time what the complications will be. misdiagnosing oil pressure sending unit vs. oil pressure sensor ? oops i then had to buy both parts... not knowing proper way to pull the jack bolts on a Centa coupler? buddies in england send the instructions via email.. trying to replace the cutless bearing but not having right prop puller for a flexafold ? kiss $200 good by. 2/ i run into problems when i do stuff myself, and it then take 5x longer and is 5x more expensive than i thought. so IF i have to hire a yard, i've researched the project and know where they might be likely to run into problems. i make specific provisions in the contract for notice and approval rights if there's going to be a cost over run. i try not to sign open end 'time-and cost' contracts, because who knows how much a bad yard with incompetent staff will eventually charge ? going to small claims court without a lawyer is a last resort, because meanwhile your boat is held hostage.
After renovating a historic home in Philadelphia, then building new construction, then later building three bakeries, I learned a lot from previous mistakes.
It can't be said enough that everything should be in writing, even if something simple like through a text message, and should always be 100% clear. There could be several back and forth texts or conversations with negotiations, so it can be muddy towards the end. Before beginning work, I always text or e-mail with, "my understanding is blah blah blah <very specific work, prices, terms and penalties>. Please confirm if this is correct." If it isn't in writing, it's a "he said/she said". (Being a contractor means you can hopefully do the agreed upon work, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at admin, negotiations, or running a business. They're two different skill sets.)
I'm not sure how it plays out with boat yards, but one thing I build into negotiations now is the increasing penalties for not completing specific parts of the work on time. It's very common for contractors to take on more work than they can do and then try to ride it all out and get it done on their own time. This is no fun when it's delaying your business opening (or boating season) but without penalties they know they have you by the balls because it would take you just as long to find someone else to do the work.
It can't be said enough that everything should be in writing, even if something simple like through a text message, and should always be 100% clear. There could be several back and forth texts or conversations with negotiations, so it can be muddy towards the end. Before beginning work, I always text or e-mail with, "my understanding is blah blah blah <very specific work, prices, terms and penalties>. Please confirm if this is correct." If it isn't in writing, it's a "he said/she said". (Being a contractor means you can hopefully do the agreed upon work, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at admin, negotiations, or running a business. They're two different skill sets.)
I'm not sure how it plays out with boat yards, but one thing I build into negotiations now is the increasing penalties for not completing specific parts of the work on time. It's very common for contractors to take on more work than they can do and then try to ride it all out and get it done on their own time. This is no fun when it's delaying your business opening (or boating season) but without penalties they know they have you by the balls because it would take you just as long to find someone else to do the work.
I have to say that I have been very pleased with my boat yard. When I had a bottom painted in Annapolis before I left for South Carolina, the bottom paint was "junk" although I was not charged for junk. Growth was phenominal in a very short time. Funny thing was that where the pads were while it was painted (and then the pad areas painted just before launch) it was pristine with 0 growth. My yard who hauled the boat for me in Beaufort SC went to bat for me with the paint manufacturer and got me a "free" bottom paint job, including labor, even though it was a problem with the Annapolis boatyard that applied the bottom paint. A few years later, when they pulled my boat for another bottom painting and some other work, they accidentally hooked the forestay and furling foil on a tree as they placed the boat. I went by and and saw they were replacing my furler and the foil and they explained what had happened and told me it was on them and they covered the cost for the new furler, foil and installation. Can't complain at all but I think that may not be typical. I'll have to say the boat yard in Annapolis (actually a "resident" contractor at the yard) really ripped me off. At least my local boat yard went to bat and made it right even though it wasn't their responsibility. They even had the paint rep down at the yard to talk about it.
Great story Smokey. It's good to read about good experiences like that. Now you just need to let everyone on SBO know who your local boat yard is so we might be able to get in on the great service if we are ever in the area.
-Will (Dragonfly)
Didn't want to cross some line on what can be posted. But since you asked, it was Marsh Harbor Boatyard in Beaufort SC. They have great reviews last time I checked on Active Captain.
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Paint manufacturer (Micron 66) didn't have a definitive answer since Marsh Harbor had already removed the bad paint but we had pictures. I saw them apply the paint to the pad spots before launch in Annapolis straight from the can so Marsh Harbor thinks they may have diluted the paint for the two coats that were put on in Annapolis. I hope the Paint rep read that yard the Riot Act. Marsh Harbor really came through for me.