So I blew out a jib sheet and here I am staring at all of the line choices on APS' web site (40%off) wondering if I should spend the money on low stretch racing lines for the jib sheets. I have Dacron sails that are fairly new and my boat is a Hunter 34 so no Formula 1 racing here. I get that they're low stretch and lighter but how does that translate to the actual on the boat experience when in comes to improving racing performance?
Are "racing" lines worth it?
- Thread starter markwbird
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I recently replaced my jib sheets and prior to that I discussed rope selection for my dacron jib with Samson. They recommended XLS3 for dacron sails to avoid overstressing them. They also have MLX3, which is low stretch and GPX, which us even lower stretch.
www.samsonrope.com
Recreational Marine - Samson Rope
Lightweight, low stretch, and made to last, Samson sailing lines are the choice of hobbyists and champions alike.
www.samsonrope.com
Another vote for Trophy Braid. It has a nice soft hand and works just fine. Sometimes it is referred to as "fuzzy braid" because the cover is fuzzy, making it easier to grip.For the casual racer or cruiser, hybrid high tech lines, like New England ropes VPC make sense for halyards. They really reduce stretch, which improves sail shape and halyards are raised and forgotten until the sail comes down. High tech very low stretch lines for sheets is not as important because the sheets are frequently adjusted and any stretch that has occurred can be trimmed out.
Another factor is the length of the line. A halyard on a 34 foot boat will be around 50 feet long from masthead to winch. Even a small amount of stretch is a lot. At 50' and 1% stretch, the halyard will be 6" longer. A stronger line with lower stretch works well here. In contrast, the jib sheet will only be 15 or so feet from clew to winch when going to weather (the point of sail with the most pressure on the sail), that's only about 2" of stretch that can easily be taken out by retrimming the sail.
@dlochner said it really well, but I'd like to emphasize a couple of his points. First, all modern lines are stronger than you will ever need, so breakage is no longer an issue. For cruising larger boats, the stretch of your halyards and control lines are important, but not your sheets. I'd focus on the feel or "hand" of the lines that you touch all the time, such as sheets and traveler control lines. Fuzzy is nice - like an old t-shirt. New England VPC is amazingly strong and low-stretch, but the slipperiness will kill you if you tried to trim it as a sheet.
These were really well explained on APS' excellent videos and charts for line selection, which seem to be down right now (404 errors!) probably due to their website redesign. Perhaps the videos are still on YouTube?
These were really well explained on APS' excellent videos and charts for line selection, which seem to be down right now (404 errors!) probably due to their website redesign. Perhaps the videos are still on YouTube?
It would be nice if the line manufacturers would provide a lot more information about the characteristics of their lines. The technical specifications are fine, but they really don't mean a lot to me. It is their description and intended use that I'm interested in. They typically include some really lame descriptions. The breakdown between "cruiser/club racer" or "hi-tech racer" is lame. They all say under uses … "halyards, sheets, control lines" - boy that really breaks it down for me! The descriptions tend to be completely useless to me. I have the same complaint for all of the lines described by Yale, Sampson and the others. I think they do a bad job at helping a person select a line. The problem is that with all the choices, I have a hard time separating what specific choice I want for an intended purpose. They all seem to have the same description and are only separated by price and a very general category between casual racing and high tech. In other words, the descriptions are useless.
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I tend to agree with your complaint, and find it generally true for many things sold on-line. They try to tick all the boxes - good for everything, excellent for many things, etc. That does not make it easy to distinguish what is best for your application. May I suggest calling APS Ltd and talking to a human? They're a relatively small outfit, and actually have people that can give advice.
We just buy the same stuff if I'm satisfied with it, and 90% of the time it's a good quality Sampson double braid polyester (Dacron). We're not racers and really, a bit of stretch on a sheet pulling 77,000 pounds along at ten knots or so probably doesn't really matter all that much. We have eye splices in each end of each jib sheet, attach them to the clew with some dyneema small stuff and turn them end for end each year. Last set of jib sheets lasted over 10 years of Caribbean and Atlantic sailing.
I really don't find the descriptions of line all that much more obtuse than that of many marine products, like bottom paint.
I really don't find the descriptions of line all that much more obtuse than that of many marine products, like bottom paint.
@Scott T-Bird if it helps any, there are 3 basic categories of line used for running rigging, Pure Hytech, blended or hybrid, and dacron/polyester. Most of us here on SBO would be satisfied with either hybrid or Dacron.
The hybrids typically have a core of dyneema or similar with a polyester cover. For us, these are good lines to use for halyards and highly loaded control lines, like vangs, Cunningham's, and outhauls where we don't want stretch.
In the dacron/polyester realm the big distinction is how the core is laid. Broadly speaking, the core can be braided or it can be parallel. Sta-set has a braided core and Start-set X has a parallel core. Parallel cores stretch less than braided cores. Braided cores work better as sheets because they don't hockel as much. Sta-Set X is a terrible sheet because it hockles and jams in the blocks.
There are a few dacron lines out there that don't have a core, these stretch a fair amount and are very soft. I use this to suspend my dinghy from the garage ceiling all winter. Works well in this application. Hard to think of an application on the boat where this inexpensive soft, stretchy line would work well.
Each company tries to put a spin their line to lure the gullible and those who need to have the latest and greatest product.
As an engineer and long time sailor, I'd rather see the specs than the advice... because I may not agree with the advice for technical reasons. For example, Staset X isn't good for anything.
For a cruiser, I'd say PDB braid for practically everything, the exceptions being something low stretch for halyards (Endurabraid is good) if you are a trim maven, and possible nylon double braid or dynamic climbing rope for the traveler if you'd like softer jibes. Definitely not high modulus for anything that is hand tensioned, the mainsheet, or the traveler.
Finally, think about terminations. Knots are fine for PDB. Core-dependant lines like Edurabraid are super easy to splice. And sewn splices are quite reasonable for old PDB that is a bitch to splice.
I don't always find that high mod lines outlast PDB. Often the cover tears, because it slips on the core and takes the load. It does not break, but it is replaced all the same. In other applications, it does outlast.
But as for sheets and stretch, how much line is there, really, from the winch to the clew? Not much.
Line Selection--Is Low Stretch More Myth Than Function?
For a cruiser, I'd say PDB braid for practically everything, the exceptions being something low stretch for halyards (Endurabraid is good) if you are a trim maven, and possible nylon double braid or dynamic climbing rope for the traveler if you'd like softer jibes. Definitely not high modulus for anything that is hand tensioned, the mainsheet, or the traveler.
Finally, think about terminations. Knots are fine for PDB. Core-dependant lines like Edurabraid are super easy to splice. And sewn splices are quite reasonable for old PDB that is a bitch to splice.
I don't always find that high mod lines outlast PDB. Often the cover tears, because it slips on the core and takes the load. It does not break, but it is replaced all the same. In other applications, it does outlast.
But as for sheets and stretch, how much line is there, really, from the winch to the clew? Not much.
Line Selection--Is Low Stretch More Myth Than Function?
Here's 3 different lines from New England. Are these descriptions useful when you want to make a choice in halyards? Perhaps you would eliminate V-100 for a choice in sheets … but why? What useful information is there to separate these products from any others, or from other manufacturers?
VPC
Designed with the casual racer and offshore cruiser in mind.
VPC fills the gap between performance polyester lines and ultra-high performance racing lines.
Specifications
V-100
The ultimate in high load performance.
V-100 features a braided 100% Vectran® 12-strand single braid core treated with our unique marine-tech coating with a highly durable and attractive polyester cover.
Features:
Endura Braid
Perfect line for competitive sailor
Endura Braid delivers optimal performance, strength and durability for the competitive sailor. It features a specially engineered 12-strand Dyneema® core, with marine-tech coating and a 24 carrier braided polyester cover.
Features:
VPC
Designed with the casual racer and offshore cruiser in mind.
VPC fills the gap between performance polyester lines and ultra-high performance racing lines.
Specifications
- Cover. Polyester
- Core: Vectran® and polyolefin
- Diameters: 6-12mm
V-100
The ultimate in high load performance.
V-100 features a braided 100% Vectran® 12-strand single braid core treated with our unique marine-tech coating with a highly durable and attractive polyester cover.
Features:
- Cover: Polyester
- Core: Vectran®
- Applications: main halyards, genoa halyards, afterguys and guys.
Endura Braid
Perfect line for competitive sailor
Endura Braid delivers optimal performance, strength and durability for the competitive sailor. It features a specially engineered 12-strand Dyneema® core, with marine-tech coating and a 24 carrier braided polyester cover.
Features:
- Cover: Polyester
- Core: Dyneema® SK78
- Applications: All running rigging requiring a durable, low stretch, lightweight line, such as sheets, halyards, guys, topping lifts, reef
- lines, or low-stretch control lines.
In July I replaced my boats old polyester double braid genoa sheets with NER VPC Hi Tech. I was going for a lighter line and liked the VPC for my halyards.
Big mistake. The line hockled almost every time I stripped it off the winch. I was talking with @jssailem and he explained that the cover and core, being different materials, probably moved differently causing the hockles. He suggested I go back to a polyester double braid. Last week I installed NER Sea Set genoa sheets, which were a huge improvement. No more hockles when stripping the winches.
Big mistake. The line hockled almost every time I stripped it off the winch. I was talking with @jssailem and he explained that the cover and core, being different materials, probably moved differently causing the hockles. He suggested I go back to a polyester double braid. Last week I installed NER Sea Set genoa sheets, which were a huge improvement. No more hockles when stripping the winches.
@Scott T-Bird Yep, confusing and a lot of marketing hype.
My suggestion is to understand the 3 broad categories I described earlier. Understand the kind of sailing you do. And, then look for keywords to guide the decision.
VPC is a unique mid-tech product for sheets, halyards and jibs, Except for the recommendation for sheets this is a good description. It is not for highly competitive racers and is a middle tech line. The polyester cover is too slippery to make a good sheet.
The ultimate in high load performance. If you are looking for very low stretch under high load conditions, then this is a product for you. Notice that none of the recommended applications are for lines that are frequently adjusted. The loads are mostly static.
Applications: All running rigging requiring a durable, The keyword here is durable and that relates to the polyester cover. Most of the recommended applications are lines that are frequently adjusted, guys, and control lines.
Among the highly competitive racers there is a lot of competition for every little advantage. I think the rope manufacturers are playing to that market. I'd be interested in hearing @thinwater 's take on this from the climbing perspective. Is there a much hype and competition in the climbing rope market?
Sta-Set and Sta-Set X are very different lines. Before the advent of mid-tech or hybrid tech lines, Sta-Set X was a decent choice for a low stretch economical halyard. Better than a wire-rope halyard, but not perfect.
Sta-Set X is difficult to splice and hockles easily. Sta-Set is a more traditional cored polyester line that doesn't heckle and is relatively low stretch.
Given a choice, I'd use Trophy Braid for jib sheets.
Lots of good suggestions here for lines. I like the extra low stretch for halyards, and worry less about sheets.
The Cost / Benefit Ratio is always important.
One warning: if any vendor or their verbiage tries to sell you lines based on their appropriateness for 'Racing", just like the judge's instruction to the jury pool to disbelieve a witness about everything when you catch them in one lie........... remember that ALL sailboats are racing boats when they cross the starting line as a listed entrant.
The "R" word and the the "C" word (cruising) are used 99% of the time to steer customers into a profitable item.
Just try to make your boat easy and efficient to sail.
The Cost / Benefit Ratio is always important.
One warning: if any vendor or their verbiage tries to sell you lines based on their appropriateness for 'Racing", just like the judge's instruction to the jury pool to disbelieve a witness about everything when you catch them in one lie........... remember that ALL sailboats are racing boats when they cross the starting line as a listed entrant.
The "R" word and the the "C" word (cruising) are used 99% of the time to steer customers into a profitable item.
Just try to make your boat easy and efficient to sail.
Rigged a customers boat with X once. Horrible stuff in my opinion. As you say,hard to splice, won't flake well, tangles. Won''t use again
Of course, I haven't splic ed double braid in years- I use Buntline hitches exclusively on halyards
Glad to hear no one likes Staset X.
Yes, climbing ropes are hyped, and even more than marine rope, you can't really compare experiences very well. But some of the descriptions are helpful. Interestingly, climbing ropes are all very similar in construction and use the same materials. The differences are minor and are in the weave and coatings.
Don't forget Samson XLS. It can be a very good value and I've had good experiences. Is does run a little smaller than Staset. I think it is a little slipperier (runs faster) making it good for furlers and travelers. Samson LS is even cheaper and is also a good line.
Yes, climbing ropes are hyped, and even more than marine rope, you can't really compare experiences very well. But some of the descriptions are helpful. Interestingly, climbing ropes are all very similar in construction and use the same materials. The differences are minor and are in the weave and coatings.
Don't forget Samson XLS. It can be a very good value and I've had good experiences. Is does run a little smaller than Staset. I think it is a little slipperier (runs faster) making it good for furlers and travelers. Samson LS is even cheaper and is also a good line.
The idea with low stretch line for say a jib sheet is that as a gust comes along the line doesn't stretch and you jib stays flat. With a stretchy line the sail actually becomes fuller in the gusts which isn't exactly the desired response.
It should be noted that the less "give" you have in the system the worse shock loads get and the more stuff breaks. I was talking with a sailmaker about a fancy carbon jib and he said "you don't want that your genoa track is going to get ripped off". Basically unless the system you have is engineered for the higher loads high tech stuff will impose you might be better off with lower tech stuff.
Non-stretchy halyards though are a good thing.
It should be noted that the less "give" you have in the system the worse shock loads get and the more stuff breaks. I was talking with a sailmaker about a fancy carbon jib and he said "you don't want that your genoa track is going to get ripped off". Basically unless the system you have is engineered for the higher loads high tech stuff will impose you might be better off with lower tech stuff.
Non-stretchy halyards though are a good thing.