Are boaters being targeted by...
- Thread starter Brian D
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All Speciality Equipment
Almost anything special has especially high prices. Golf, SCUBA you name it. Bicycling equipment especially clothing can have extremely high prices.
Almost anything special has especially high prices. Golf, SCUBA you name it. Bicycling equipment especially clothing can have extremely high prices.
It has more to do with scale than gouging
Generally speaking, recreational marine products are made in small quantities and have small markets. There are very few products you'd buy by the container load. So cheap offshore manufacturing usually isn't an option, and if so, doesn't help that much because the product is still essentially hand-made. I will tell you this: I have met fewer wealthy people in the marine industry than any other business I've worked in. If people are cleaning up on boaters, I haven't met 'em yet.
Generally speaking, recreational marine products are made in small quantities and have small markets. There are very few products you'd buy by the container load. So cheap offshore manufacturing usually isn't an option, and if so, doesn't help that much because the product is still essentially hand-made. I will tell you this: I have met fewer wealthy people in the marine industry than any other business I've worked in. If people are cleaning up on boaters, I haven't met 'em yet.
One of our favorite boating stores
is Ace Hardware! We recently replaced an extendable deck brush handle that would have cost over $30 at any boat store with a $12 Ace Hardware model, sturdy aluminum, too! Phil's right about scale, but there's also the effort that YOU need to put into your own purchasing choices. It's a two way street. I recall a recent thread about foul weather gear, and I think Maine Sail correctly noted that in his experience outdoor gear from REI or equivalent was superior to that offered by boating stores in both low end and high end foul weather gear.
is Ace Hardware! We recently replaced an extendable deck brush handle that would have cost over $30 at any boat store with a $12 Ace Hardware model, sturdy aluminum, too! Phil's right about scale, but there's also the effort that YOU need to put into your own purchasing choices. It's a two way street. I recall a recent thread about foul weather gear, and I think Maine Sail correctly noted that in his experience outdoor gear from REI or equivalent was superior to that offered by boating stores in both low end and high end foul weather gear.
That's for sure, Phil ...
I assume it is relatively easy to get into a retail business. Making it a profitable business is the hard part! If price gouging worked, there would be more people entering the business and then it would be next to impossible to hold customers by gouging. I imagine that price gouging only works where you have such amazing customer service that people would pay the extra money for the service. Either that, or you are selling a product that is so unique and desirable and the manufacturers made sure that there were limited retail opportunities. This is not likely in the marine industry. Brian, if you think the retailers in your area are getting rich by gouging the customers, you might be in a location that is ripe for an opportunity!
I assume it is relatively easy to get into a retail business. Making it a profitable business is the hard part! If price gouging worked, there would be more people entering the business and then it would be next to impossible to hold customers by gouging. I imagine that price gouging only works where you have such amazing customer service that people would pay the extra money for the service. Either that, or you are selling a product that is so unique and desirable and the manufacturers made sure that there were limited retail opportunities. This is not likely in the marine industry. Brian, if you think the retailers in your area are getting rich by gouging the customers, you might be in a location that is ripe for an opportunity!
Maybe "gouging" isn't the right word.
There are some items that just don't seem to match up. Chairs that have no legs are over $100. As mentioned before, brushes and handles costing over $50. From my perspective, these aren't "specialty" nor are they in short supply. This isn't a complaint, but more of an observation. I'm willing to pay what I have to pay in order to have something, but I too will hit up HD, Lowes, and Ace Hardware before hitting up West Marine and others.
There are some items that just don't seem to match up. Chairs that have no legs are over $100. As mentioned before, brushes and handles costing over $50. From my perspective, these aren't "specialty" nor are they in short supply. This isn't a complaint, but more of an observation. I'm willing to pay what I have to pay in order to have something, but I too will hit up HD, Lowes, and Ace Hardware before hitting up West Marine and others.
Don't forget that marine products
don't rust or catch on fire. That is why they cost so much more, according to the manager of my local Marine store. Look, prices on Marine Products have gone up way too much in the last couple of years. They have well out paced inflation. The problem is easy to fix, STOP BUYING THEM whenever you can. Another thing to do is reward Marine Merchants that offer fair pricing. There is NO Reason for the price acceleration in Marine Products but greed, plain and simple greed! This has very little to do with scale or Speciality Equipment. I am a skier. I can remember when you could not get a discount on ski becuase the demand was so high. You can sure get a great discount now that demand has lowered. Pricing is a simple case of supply and demand. When we stop the demand, the supply goes up and the price goes down.. I REPEAT STOP BUYING. For example use Car wax and car soap instead of boat products.
don't rust or catch on fire. That is why they cost so much more, according to the manager of my local Marine store. Look, prices on Marine Products have gone up way too much in the last couple of years. They have well out paced inflation. The problem is easy to fix, STOP BUYING THEM whenever you can. Another thing to do is reward Marine Merchants that offer fair pricing. There is NO Reason for the price acceleration in Marine Products but greed, plain and simple greed! This has very little to do with scale or Speciality Equipment. I am a skier. I can remember when you could not get a discount on ski becuase the demand was so high. You can sure get a great discount now that demand has lowered. Pricing is a simple case of supply and demand. When we stop the demand, the supply goes up and the price goes down.. I REPEAT STOP BUYING. For example use Car wax and car soap instead of boat products.
Ross, I think you have a point there
I know one thing. I spend a heck of a lot of money on boat equipment every year. I do plan to stick to non marine products or at least try them to see how good they work. I know you do the too Rossy!
I know one thing. I spend a heck of a lot of money on boat equipment every year. I do plan to stick to non marine products or at least try them to see how good they work. I know you do the too Rossy!
Waffle good point
Marine products for the most part are not available at your loacal hardware store... i.e. I'm looking to buy a new andchor chain and rode. It's not the same chain and rope sold at the corner store. I want to have a store where I can go in and ask the person there what is the best product suited to what I need for the boat. Lowe's just doesn't cut it. What also goes along with that is the local chanderly does not have the HUGE buying power of the big boxes have on the every day items, like the brush and pole. However, I'd be willing to pay a little more for that pole if the guy can tell me the right brushes to use for which part of the boat and the right cleaner to use for each part of the boat and by the way I need a little 50 cent widget to fit in this gizmo. It's all in the advise you get everytime you go into the store. If that store gives you good advise then visit that store and gie them the business.... otherwise you'll end up at Lowe's looking for Grade 40 galv. chain and rode with a prespliced thimble and you'll get a big balnk stare.
Marine products for the most part are not available at your loacal hardware store... i.e. I'm looking to buy a new andchor chain and rode. It's not the same chain and rope sold at the corner store. I want to have a store where I can go in and ask the person there what is the best product suited to what I need for the boat. Lowe's just doesn't cut it. What also goes along with that is the local chanderly does not have the HUGE buying power of the big boxes have on the every day items, like the brush and pole. However, I'd be willing to pay a little more for that pole if the guy can tell me the right brushes to use for which part of the boat and the right cleaner to use for each part of the boat and by the way I need a little 50 cent widget to fit in this gizmo. It's all in the advise you get everytime you go into the store. If that store gives you good advise then visit that store and gie them the business.... otherwise you'll end up at Lowe's looking for Grade 40 galv. chain and rode with a prespliced thimble and you'll get a big balnk stare.
Supply and demand, Waffle
An unintended consequence of NOT BUYING, as you suggest, would be to raise prices even more. However, I think we have to understand the demographics of purchasing marine supplies. It seems to me that there are fluctuating purchasing activities, kinda like every year at a school where there are always a different number of kids going into kindergarten, for instance. One year it's 20 next is ten, simply based on who lives there and how many kids they have. I think it's like that in the marine industry, too. For instance, I have about three $10 off coupons from WM for the boat show period coming up later this week. Dagnabbit, I've been wracking my brain to find something I NEED to buy, but haven't come up with anything! Nerts. However, there are a lot of folks out there lookin' to buy something, and a lot of things. It just depend on how many people are available to purchase anything, marine or not. Maybe there's kinda a bubble of purchasing that ebbs and flows, just like the currents. There's also a lot of overpriced stuff, as I noted in my earlier post. I am fortunate that I sometimes feel that I have pretty much everything I need on our boat, except for maintenance items like oil and fuel filters. We've been doin' this for so long now that I have backups for backups -- time to start lightening the ship!!! Also I recognize that there are new boaters or folk movin' up, who continue to need stuff. That's how it goes. The good news is that most of us have discovered alternate, nd in some cases, superior, alternate sources of material. OTOH, sometimes ya just gotta fess up and buy marine stuff. It's a boat!
An unintended consequence of NOT BUYING, as you suggest, would be to raise prices even more. However, I think we have to understand the demographics of purchasing marine supplies. It seems to me that there are fluctuating purchasing activities, kinda like every year at a school where there are always a different number of kids going into kindergarten, for instance. One year it's 20 next is ten, simply based on who lives there and how many kids they have. I think it's like that in the marine industry, too. For instance, I have about three $10 off coupons from WM for the boat show period coming up later this week. Dagnabbit, I've been wracking my brain to find something I NEED to buy, but haven't come up with anything! Nerts. However, there are a lot of folks out there lookin' to buy something, and a lot of things. It just depend on how many people are available to purchase anything, marine or not. Maybe there's kinda a bubble of purchasing that ebbs and flows, just like the currents. There's also a lot of overpriced stuff, as I noted in my earlier post. I am fortunate that I sometimes feel that I have pretty much everything I need on our boat, except for maintenance items like oil and fuel filters. We've been doin' this for so long now that I have backups for backups -- time to start lightening the ship!!! Also I recognize that there are new boaters or folk movin' up, who continue to need stuff. That's how it goes. The good news is that most of us have discovered alternate, nd in some cases, superior, alternate sources of material. OTOH, sometimes ya just gotta fess up and buy marine stuff. It's a boat!
My True Value hardware store does have marine
hardware. I'll have to check on the prices. They don't carry it in the store. You have to pick it out of the catalog and then order it. lithium grease for my seacocks and they wanted $15 for a tube. I got it at the hardware store for $3 and guess what. It was Marine rated! Stu, your some point there. Hope you wear a hat. Oh and buy the way that dry wall screw thing didn't work on the packing material. Total waste of my time.
hardware. I'll have to check on the prices. They don't carry it in the store. You have to pick it out of the catalog and then order it. lithium grease for my seacocks and they wanted $15 for a tube. I got it at the hardware store for $3 and guess what. It was Marine rated! Stu, your some point there. Hope you wear a hat. Oh and buy the way that dry wall screw thing didn't work on the packing material. Total waste of my time.
Dry wall screw
Sorry it didn't work for you, does for me. It would be helpful and interesting to know what you did use that worked. Thanks, Stu
Sorry it didn't work for you, does for me. It would be helpful and interesting to know what you did use that worked. Thanks, Stu
I go along with Scott B
When WM first started, you could ask one of the associates about almost anything and get a knowledgeable answer. As time went by, these knowledgeable guys disappeared and they where replaced by college kids that knew little or nothing about the products. Now I deal with my local boat yard. These guys really know their stuff and I can pick up the phone or go see them and ask questions to which I will always get a good answer. I don't mind paying a little extra for the stuff I buy because the knowledge that I gain is well worth it. From a manufacturers prospective, I can tell you that yes I make some money on the Fuel Whistle, but it would be the same if I were selling it through WM or any other marine outlet or any hardware store. If I could sell in large quantities I could afford to lower the price and make less per item for the sake of volume, such is the nature of capitalism. But the marine market is relatively small compared to stores like Lowes or HD where they can purchase truck loads at a clip. Currently WM is going through a restructuring. Their sales are down and they are closing stores in an attempt to save money. They are forgetting the formula that lead to their growth in the beginning, good quality service. I have met many small business people in the marine industry and by in large they are a good honest group that consider customers service the key to success. I know I do.
When WM first started, you could ask one of the associates about almost anything and get a knowledgeable answer. As time went by, these knowledgeable guys disappeared and they where replaced by college kids that knew little or nothing about the products. Now I deal with my local boat yard. These guys really know their stuff and I can pick up the phone or go see them and ask questions to which I will always get a good answer. I don't mind paying a little extra for the stuff I buy because the knowledge that I gain is well worth it. From a manufacturers prospective, I can tell you that yes I make some money on the Fuel Whistle, but it would be the same if I were selling it through WM or any other marine outlet or any hardware store. If I could sell in large quantities I could afford to lower the price and make less per item for the sake of volume, such is the nature of capitalism. But the marine market is relatively small compared to stores like Lowes or HD where they can purchase truck loads at a clip. Currently WM is going through a restructuring. Their sales are down and they are closing stores in an attempt to save money. They are forgetting the formula that lead to their growth in the beginning, good quality service. I have met many small business people in the marine industry and by in large they are a good honest group that consider customers service the key to success. I know I do.
I'd be one of those newbie's
Since this is boat No.1, all of this is fairly new to me. I don't know what chain to use and how to connect it, or what cleaner to use for what, or what grease goaes where. I'm a very handy DIY'er ( 75% through a total gut and all new systems in the home galley, including major structural changes) but anything nautical is totaly foreign. Hence any chanderly I've visited it's 1000 questions time. I'm willing to spend and patronize anyone willing to give me their time to explain in detail what the h#$% I'm doing.
Since this is boat No.1, all of this is fairly new to me. I don't know what chain to use and how to connect it, or what cleaner to use for what, or what grease goaes where. I'm a very handy DIY'er ( 75% through a total gut and all new systems in the home galley, including major structural changes) but anything nautical is totaly foreign. Hence any chanderly I've visited it's 1000 questions time. I'm willing to spend and patronize anyone willing to give me their time to explain in detail what the h#$% I'm doing.
I'b be one of those new boat owners
Since this is boat No.1, all of this is fairly new to me. I don't know what chain to use and how to connect it, or what cleaner to use for what, or what grease goaes where. I'm a very handy DIY'er ( 75% through a total gut and all new systems in the home galley, including major structural changes) but anything nautical is totaly foreign. Hence any chanderly I've visited it's 1000 questions time. I'm willing to spend and patronize anyone willing to give me their time to explain in detail what the h#$% I'm doing.
Since this is boat No.1, all of this is fairly new to me. I don't know what chain to use and how to connect it, or what cleaner to use for what, or what grease goaes where. I'm a very handy DIY'er ( 75% through a total gut and all new systems in the home galley, including major structural changes) but anything nautical is totaly foreign. Hence any chanderly I've visited it's 1000 questions time. I'm willing to spend and patronize anyone willing to give me their time to explain in detail what the h#$% I'm doing.
Alan nailed WM
It's truly unfortunate that they forgot one very important thing: the customer. The "sales associates" at one of our stores are clueless, while the other store still has the "old guard" who actually know more than just what aisle something may be located. Too bad, because when they were good, they were very, very good. We also have one great separate chandlery, so finding stuff is easy. If you're new, it's harder now unless you can find a good knowledgeable source. If it's not in the store, better hope it's somewhere down your dock!
It's truly unfortunate that they forgot one very important thing: the customer. The "sales associates" at one of our stores are clueless, while the other store still has the "old guard" who actually know more than just what aisle something may be located. Too bad, because when they were good, they were very, very good. We also have one great separate chandlery, so finding stuff is easy. If you're new, it's harder now unless you can find a good knowledgeable source. If it's not in the store, better hope it's somewhere down your dock!
Boating is a hobby...
That is all it is. It is not a business unless one is involved in transporting passengers or cargo. Then it is no longer boating. It is a hobby just like music, photography, astronomy, sewing, etc... I totally understand that if one is a part of the industry that supports that hobby, one is not going to make a great deal of money. So if I seem a little rash, but if West Marine goes under, sorry, but they should have been more reasonable in the pricing of their products instead of trying to make a large profit. Remember, this is a hobby. And I disagree, not purchasing because of high prices does not cause prices to go up. Lack of competition in the industry causes prices to go up. It has nothing (at least in the hobby) to do with supply and demand. Take gas stations as an example. If one has four gas stations and all charge the same, they can continue to raise the price of gas. However, if one does not follow suite and starts to lower their price, the others must follow suite else they will lose their customer base. Same holds true for a gas station that has no immediate competition. They can charge, as one person has so eloquently put it, can charge as much as the market will demand. I feel that in order for prices to become reasonable within this industry, there needs to be more competition. Just my .02 worth. And I understand that my thinking could very well be flawed.
That is all it is. It is not a business unless one is involved in transporting passengers or cargo. Then it is no longer boating. It is a hobby just like music, photography, astronomy, sewing, etc... I totally understand that if one is a part of the industry that supports that hobby, one is not going to make a great deal of money. So if I seem a little rash, but if West Marine goes under, sorry, but they should have been more reasonable in the pricing of their products instead of trying to make a large profit. Remember, this is a hobby. And I disagree, not purchasing because of high prices does not cause prices to go up. Lack of competition in the industry causes prices to go up. It has nothing (at least in the hobby) to do with supply and demand. Take gas stations as an example. If one has four gas stations and all charge the same, they can continue to raise the price of gas. However, if one does not follow suite and starts to lower their price, the others must follow suite else they will lose their customer base. Same holds true for a gas station that has no immediate competition. They can charge, as one person has so eloquently put it, can charge as much as the market will demand. I feel that in order for prices to become reasonable within this industry, there needs to be more competition. Just my .02 worth. And I understand that my thinking could very well be flawed.
Waffle, you probably didn't hold your mouth right
while you were using the drywall screw. The next time you see your dentist ask him if he has some worn out instruments that you could have. Those things can pick a lock from the wong side of a door.
while you were using the drywall screw. The next time you see your dentist ask him if he has some worn out instruments that you could have. Those things can pick a lock from the wong side of a door.
Raw material ...
You also have to take into account the rise in the price of raw material. Good quality stainless steel has more than doubled in price in the last 18 months. I work in a rigging and fabrication shop, SS tubing that used to sell for $5.00 a foot now costs over $8.00 per foot. Anyone that has run a retail business knows that a 50% profit margin on material is not gouging. If we made $2.50/ft selling at $5.00 2 years ago, we have to sell the same tube for $16.00/ft to keep our margin or $10.50/ft to keep our per foot profit. This makes the cost of every item we build much more expensive and our profit margin is lower than it used to be. Lower margins means that we cannot afford the luxury of stocking the quantity and selection we used to. For the same capital investment, $100,000 = less than half of what we used to have on hand. We've seen similar increases in supplies (abrasives, welding supplies, etc). It all adds up to increase the cost of the same goods we built 2-3 years ago. Where I see gouging, is when "Marine" parts of unknown quality are sourced from offshore and then sold at nearly the same price as the real deal. We keep a cast SS stanchion base on the counter. The part came from Asia and literally ate itself from the inside out before it failed. We have no idea what alloy it was supposed to be, there is no brand or maker's mark on the part. Chrome brass or zinc parts look like chrome bronze on the the shelf and in many cases the prices are close. Put the parts on a boat that sees salt water and come back in 2 years ... then it is easy to see what real marine quality is all about. Then there are hardware store "SS" screws that start bleeding rust within 2 months of installation ... "brass" hinges that rust in 6 months ... there is a lot of garbage out there. It is sad that there are fewer people in the stores that know the difference between crap and quality and more boaters that refuse to spend the money to get high quality parts. Sure, chrome zinc on a fresh water boat that goes home to a heated garage after the weekend might well be the proper and economical choice ... just don't sell it to a sailor that keeps their boat in the sea. Heaven help you if you put that junk on your boat then go sailing in the tropics, you will have to replace it ... all of it. 316 SS parts seldom cost twice what the lookalikes do, yet they last 5-10 times longer ... which choice would frugal Ross make? I'll wager that he never spends that nickle twice on the same part, he probably ponies up the seven cents the first time, mounts it properly, and never has to worry again. Sure, buy from the big box stores ... if you know what you are looking for and can judge the quality. If you have questions, ask the people at your chandlery to explain the difference between the $50 deck brush and the $30 brush from K-Mart. You might find that the marine one has SS fasteners and anodized parts while the cheap one has bare aluminum and steel screws ... or ... you might find that they are the same item, from the same manufacturer ... I've seen it go both ways. The sad thing is, at the low volume your local guy buys in, he may be making less money at $50 than K-Mart is making at $30 ... sad, but true. If you don't by from the chandlery and shop price only, you had better make damn sure that K-Mart is also going to have a captive pin shackle when you need one ... or three quality levels of braided line in several colours (and someone that can splice it for you)... or winch pawls and springs ... or four brands of ball bearing blocks and the knowledge to help you pick the one that will work best for you ... Something about Low Price, High Quality, and Good Service ... you can almost always find any two ... I'll settle for Good Service, Good Quality, and a fair price ... I know I'm always happy when I find that combo.
You also have to take into account the rise in the price of raw material. Good quality stainless steel has more than doubled in price in the last 18 months. I work in a rigging and fabrication shop, SS tubing that used to sell for $5.00 a foot now costs over $8.00 per foot. Anyone that has run a retail business knows that a 50% profit margin on material is not gouging. If we made $2.50/ft selling at $5.00 2 years ago, we have to sell the same tube for $16.00/ft to keep our margin or $10.50/ft to keep our per foot profit. This makes the cost of every item we build much more expensive and our profit margin is lower than it used to be. Lower margins means that we cannot afford the luxury of stocking the quantity and selection we used to. For the same capital investment, $100,000 = less than half of what we used to have on hand. We've seen similar increases in supplies (abrasives, welding supplies, etc). It all adds up to increase the cost of the same goods we built 2-3 years ago. Where I see gouging, is when "Marine" parts of unknown quality are sourced from offshore and then sold at nearly the same price as the real deal. We keep a cast SS stanchion base on the counter. The part came from Asia and literally ate itself from the inside out before it failed. We have no idea what alloy it was supposed to be, there is no brand or maker's mark on the part. Chrome brass or zinc parts look like chrome bronze on the the shelf and in many cases the prices are close. Put the parts on a boat that sees salt water and come back in 2 years ... then it is easy to see what real marine quality is all about. Then there are hardware store "SS" screws that start bleeding rust within 2 months of installation ... "brass" hinges that rust in 6 months ... there is a lot of garbage out there. It is sad that there are fewer people in the stores that know the difference between crap and quality and more boaters that refuse to spend the money to get high quality parts. Sure, chrome zinc on a fresh water boat that goes home to a heated garage after the weekend might well be the proper and economical choice ... just don't sell it to a sailor that keeps their boat in the sea. Heaven help you if you put that junk on your boat then go sailing in the tropics, you will have to replace it ... all of it. 316 SS parts seldom cost twice what the lookalikes do, yet they last 5-10 times longer ... which choice would frugal Ross make?
I'll wager that he never spends that nickle twice on the same part, he probably ponies up the seven cents the first time, mounts it properly, and never has to worry again. Sure, buy from the big box stores ... if you know what you are looking for and can judge the quality. If you have questions, ask the people at your chandlery to explain the difference between the $50 deck brush and the $30 brush from K-Mart. You might find that the marine one has SS fasteners and anodized parts while the cheap one has bare aluminum and steel screws ... or ... you might find that they are the same item, from the same manufacturer ... I've seen it go both ways. The sad thing is, at the low volume your local guy buys in, he may be making less money at $50 than K-Mart is making at $30 ... sad, but true. If you don't by from the chandlery and shop price only, you had better make damn sure that K-Mart is also going to have a captive pin shackle when you need one ... or three quality levels of braided line in several colours (and someone that can splice it for you)... or winch pawls and springs ... or four brands of ball bearing blocks and the knowledge to help you pick the one that will work best for you ... Something about Low Price, High Quality, and Good Service ... you can almost always find any two ... I'll settle for Good Service, Good Quality, and a fair price ... I know I'm always happy when I find that combo.- Status