Are all your eggs in one basket?

py26129 · Mar 15, 2013

Bill

Paper charts are always on board and I know how to use them, the dividers and parallel rules. I also still remember the calculations to convert from true a compass course and have a deviation chart on board as well.

It's just that GPS's (even old ones paired with a laptop) are so much more convenient and when paired with AIS add some safety margin.

Matt

Stu Jackson · Mar 15, 2013

Bill Roosa said:
So i have a question for all you GPS affectionatios; How do you navigate on your secondary and tertiary GPS that does not have a map plotter function? Just knowing your lat-long does not do much if you don't also know all the lat-longs of the shoreline and thin spots.

What worked for me, Bill, in ye olden daze, was to use the chart and make waypoints. Usually the easiest waypoints were where the main lat/lon lines on the chart intersected. Also, I made waypoints ahead of time for areas to keep away from.

Without a chart, mapless GPSs are useless.

JohnS · Mar 15, 2013

Jackdaw said:
Indeed. As Mark Knoffler sings:

'Two men say they're Jesus... ONE of them must be wrong....'!

...unless you're in Mexico.

Sumner · Mar 15, 2013

Stu Jackson said:
... I made waypoints ahead of time for areas to keep away from.

Without a chart, mapless GPSs are useless.

We have 3 or 4 Garmin Map 76's (cheap on e-bay) with just the no detail base map on them, but they get us about everywhere we've been in Florida because I do load the day's waypoints into them from the computer that is running below with SeaClear and now also OpenCPN on it. We also use that computer if we deviate and update the waypoints to the handheld in the cockpit that is always connected to the computer below.

Another handheld is connected to the VHF for DSC and in the Mac we use a fishfinder/GPS Cuda 350 in the cockpit that transmits to the VHF on that boat. You cannot download NEMA to it so we still use the handheld for waypoints.

We will be trying out the cheap daylight display connected to the computer when we finally get back into the water. We also have SeaClear and OpenCPN with charts on one laptop and 2 netbooks that can run quite a while on batteries if needed. And also charts of where we are.

I think a lot of this depends on where you are sailing. We have charts for Florida, but I would find it very hard to navigate entirely from them with no outside help on location. The terrain down there can all look the same especially down in the 10,000 Islands/Everglades and you can't get in close to shore as the water is so shallow. Now that we have been to some areas once or more I can visually navigate as I've seen them.

In the west even on big lakes we really have not had to have a GPS for navigation and I think that would hold true for a lot of the west coast with the higher visible landmarks (if day sailing). Also if you sail the same area all the time I can't see using the GPS often unless you are going in complicated unmarked channels,

Sum

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FourPoints · Mar 15, 2013

Bill,

While I would admittedly be lost out at sea without GPS since I only conceptually understand how a sextant operates and wouldn't know where to begin using one (much less have one), here on Long Island Sound, I can easily tell where I am most of the time just looking at the shore line and comparing against the chart (if necessary), and if there is ever a doubt, just sail to the closest main channel buoy and check what number it is. The shipping channel buoys run the length of the sound every couple miles.

I use GPS primarily for SOG and COG readings. When making longer passages I normally get my bearing to desired waypoint from the GPS since it's faster and easier than using the paper charts. When making a passage that I am not very familiar with I do make a habit of reviewing my intended course on the paper charts to determine my route, and only then enter the information into the GPS.

Victory · Mar 15, 2013

Bill Roosa said:
So i have a question for all you GPS affectionatios; How do you navigate on your secondary and tertiary GPS that does not have a map plotter function? Just knowing your lat-long does not do much if you don't also know all the lat-longs of the shoreline and thin spots.

Bill, I"m sure you know that a gps doesn't have a "Map' but it does have navigational aids and your own waypoints... I've sailed without a chart plotter for as long as gps has been around. The chartplotter is a convenenience, but not an absolute necessity.

So.. if taking a compass bearing and plotting your position on a paper chart is just too much work for you, then simply coordinate the fixed navigational aid on your map with the one in your gps. Or refer to the waypoints you may have entered when planning the route, or marked when sailing the area previously. A fixed navigational aid would be like.......... a bouy... that's numbered.... they are on all the GPS units since day one.

As far as the "putting your eggs in one basket" scenario......... I thought back up navigation meant non electronic systems.... like a hand held compass, a watch, a chart, binoculars, a radio direction finder (sorry, I don't have one of those, but that's what Tania Aebi used), a sextant (uh, don't have one of those either) NOT just a sack full of GPS's........

My experience with the garmin units is.......... gps 45... piece of crap. GPS 76 or 72.... awesome. GPS 12... okay but very, very 1st generation.... will suck up batteries and won't float.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Mar 15, 2013

Just recently brought a boat single handed, from the Chesapeake, to Texas, including a partial single hand Gulf of Mexico crossing, with a Garmin 76 Cx and paper charts. No big deal. I did have an old Garmin 72 aboard also, but never used it.

I also had an Iphone aboard, with INavx loaded on it, and ALL the charts, from the Rio Grande, to Maine. Used it once, but then used the Google Maps, not the charts.

Backups for me are hand bearing compass, a chart and a mark I eyeball

Stu Jackson · Mar 15, 2013

Brian D said:
I have to take issue with mapless GPS being useless. I totally disagree. If one uses the same area for sailing then the map is actually drawn in the GPS unit.

Brian, I was talking about the OLD OLD GPS units that didn't have tracks, ONLY coordinates, like the old Loran system.

f course, if you have an old unit without charts but still makes tracks, it's a different instrument.

Victory · Mar 15, 2013

TSBB 2 said:
..........including a partial single hand Gulf of Mexico crossing........

Uh......did you start out single until someone met you halfway across to join up, or did you start with crew and lost them somewhere during the passage? What's up?

gpd955 · Mar 16, 2013

Brian D said:
So my question to the general forum. When it comes to GPS systems on your boat, are all your eggs in one basket?

As of last week I have 2 GPS/CP units, a GPS app and iNavX on the iPhone as far as electronics go. Only had the one and it worked out fine for me but upgraded to a more versatile system so the old unit is staying in service as backup.

SH CP390i at the helm tied into the autopilot and VHF for DSC and AIS. The Garmin 276C is now mounted at the Nav Station as backup (and for power failure). I also keep my paper updated and regularly plot my location and for DR and the like just to keep in practice. And of course the compass and a compass app on the iPhone! Still planning to learn celestial before retirement just to say I did it and to try and put it to use, but there are too many other things going on right now!

I like redundancy, almost to a fault, but it has served me well in my careers and at the dock!

Chris Patterson · Mar 16, 2013

I cannot imagine being out of sight of land, and not having a sextant. I wonder sometimes if just the look of the thing intimidates people, but the fact is, they are surprisingly simple. By its very principal, all it is doing is getting an angle from the sun or stars, to the horizon. It can about be done roughly with a torpedo level, and an angle finder.
I realize that a glance into a nautical almanac, and the sight reduction tables again look all encompassing, but it's just math. And sailors are a notoriously smart enough bunch of people. If the operator already had a concept of charts, directions, and basic piloting; I believe I could teach it in a day. In fact I know it, it was for me. Then it's just refinement and practice. Buy a Duttons, and sit with it awhile.

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Mar 16, 2013

Victory said:
Uh......did you start out single until someone met you halfway across to join up, or did you start with crew and lost them somewhere during the passage? What's up?

Started as a couple, ended single hand. 5000 miles double, 2500 single hand.

Old Skool Neil · Mar 16, 2013

It's interesting how dependent boaters have become on their electronic gadgets but always remember, electrics and salt water are a bad mix.

[Picture me sitting on a wood porch in a rocking chair, wearing denim overalls and whittling on a stick] When I was a young whippersnapper all we coastal cruisers had were dead reckoning and if we were rich a radio direction finder (see picture). LORAN existed but was still a rarity and no more accurate than the RDF. There was talk of a new system in the future called SATNAV. Knot meters were a convenience but not completely necessary. Dropping a bit of flotsam over the side at the bow and timing how long it took to reach the stern we could calculate (with a pencil and paper) the speed of the boat with reasonable accuracy. Everybody had their compasses professionally adjusted with a deviation card handy because we depended on it for navigation. This was WW2 technology at its finest. Redundancy was extra pencils.

I'm not eschewing technology though. I have GPS, a rock solid older Furuno unit that's interfaced with the autopilot. I have only the one, considering it a convenience as opposed to an essential navigation tool and as a convenience I don't carry six of them on board.

Brian and others, if for some reason your GPS or bank of GPS devices ceased to function would you cancel the cruise?

seadaddler · Mar 16, 2013

Gps

I have my C-80 at the helm and when sailing in skinny waters of Florida it is a big plus knowing where exactly where the real skinny water and shoals are for sure,I also have backup Iphone withy Navionics charting and 76Cx which is real handy when kayaking in the mangroves for sure.
Both my wife have taken Nav courses and do take refresher ccourses to keep us up to date with paper charts which I keep on the boat for double checking when cruising,backup and backup paper charts and all the electronics I can have is a great thing if things go wrong.
Nick

McZube · Mar 16, 2013

Sorry if this is a rookie question, or has already been asked, but is one of the three systems freestanding in the event a lightning strike takes out everything else?

Old Skool Neil · Mar 16, 2013

Brian D said:
if all my electronics failed, I would still go on my cruise.

Good man. You've restored my faith. Have a great time.

Where are you going?

anchorclanker · Mar 16, 2013

Chris Patterson said:
I cannot imagine being out of sight of land, and not having a sextant.

I will never leave shore (ocean, gulf etc..) until I own a decent sextant and learn how to use it. I have zero faith in electronics, except while they have power. GPS, while quite accurate, is totally subject to the whims of the US Dept of Defense, and they can, and will shut it down (or add ridiculous fault codes making its accuracy many, many miles instead of only feet) if conditions merit (national security). Just because they haven't is no promise they wont. A sextant OTOH, will work anytime the sky is clear, or partially clear, and when its not you can dead recon your way until it is.