I'm going to send back my 356 questionnaire that Hunter sent me and basically I am going to blast only the UK main sail. We are really happy with the remainder of the design. From the beginning and over the last year it begins to luff terribly at about 15kts of wind speed - no matter what I have or anyone else has tried. Just wanted to see if you other 356 owners wanted to chime in if you have the same problem. One 356owner has even gone so far as to replace the sail with a Doyle Swingbatten because of the luffing. So, to the question: how many of you 356 owners - who read these posts - actually are to the point of being dissatisfied with the poorly designed 356 main sail? Also, if you have found an adjustment that works, please let me know. Al Dream Catcher
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Some Minor Adjustments
I use to have a problem. I found two solutions. First I think most sailors over trim their sails if they have in mast furling main. Ease the outhaul some. Second, a minor adjustment on the leach line, pull it in a tad, usually takes care of the problem. Somethings that also help to a degree ensuring the topping lift is loose and the boomvang is properly adjusted for the weather conditions. I'd be interested if this helps you at all. Rob S/V Kailua
I use to have a problem. I found two solutions. First I think most sailors over trim their sails if they have in mast furling main. Ease the outhaul some. Second, a minor adjustment on the leach line, pull it in a tad, usually takes care of the problem. Somethings that also help to a degree ensuring the topping lift is loose and the boomvang is properly adjusted for the weather conditions. I'd be interested if this helps you at all. Rob S/V Kailua
Same Issue
We have the same issue with our main as do many as I have seen many, many postings here on this issue. Some have already replaced the sail and others like myself are considering doing so in the near future. I have tried various remedies without much success. What I have been told is that it is a "Production Sail" and that if you want sails that perform better then you should have them made. Hopefully when I am ready I will pick a sail maker that can solve this problem. I did replace the main on my previous boat with a UK sail and was very pleased so it probably is just the specs supplied by Hunter to UK that created the problem.
We have the same issue with our main as do many as I have seen many, many postings here on this issue. Some have already replaced the sail and others like myself are considering doing so in the near future. I have tried various remedies without much success. What I have been told is that it is a "Production Sail" and that if you want sails that perform better then you should have them made. Hopefully when I am ready I will pick a sail maker that can solve this problem. I did replace the main on my previous boat with a UK sail and was very pleased so it probably is just the specs supplied by Hunter to UK that created the problem.
flutter
Leeches don't luff. Luffs luff. Leeches flutter. Although leech tension is usually controlled by a combination of vang, mainsheet and leechline tension, a leech that won't respond to these controls usually indicates a lack of halyard tension. I know this sounds weird, but halyard tension moves the draft forward, and a draft that is too far aft causes flutter. This is especially true on dacron sails since they stretch more than laminates. If halyard tension doesn't work to eliminate flutter, a slack leech is an easy fix for a sailmaker, and is a much better problem to have than a tight leech. You're talking about a one-seam restitch. Most sailmakers will do this for you inexpensively because they want you to come back when you're ready for a custom main.
Leeches don't luff. Luffs luff. Leeches flutter. Although leech tension is usually controlled by a combination of vang, mainsheet and leechline tension, a leech that won't respond to these controls usually indicates a lack of halyard tension. I know this sounds weird, but halyard tension moves the draft forward, and a draft that is too far aft causes flutter. This is especially true on dacron sails since they stretch more than laminates. If halyard tension doesn't work to eliminate flutter, a slack leech is an easy fix for a sailmaker, and is a much better problem to have than a tight leech. You're talking about a one-seam restitch. Most sailmakers will do this for you inexpensively because they want you to come back when you're ready for a custom main.
Excellent response, John......
......you also have the backstay which can come into play, depending on angle of attack and wind speed. Anything you can do to change the shape of the main under power is worth trying. Do you have full battens up top? <--inexpensive fix.
......you also have the backstay which can come into play, depending on angle of attack and wind speed. Anything you can do to change the shape of the main under power is worth trying. Do you have full battens up top? <--inexpensive fix.
Works well
I gather all the complaints are about the roller reefing main, although they don't specify. I have a standard main and I'm very happy with it. The controls give me good adjustments to the shape, and I don't have any leech flutter. Now the vang is another story....
I gather all the complaints are about the roller reefing main, although they don't specify. I have a standard main and I'm very happy with it. The controls give me good adjustments to the shape, and I don't have any leech flutter. Now the vang is another story....
356 flutter
execellent response, John! I also found that the flutter went away when I tightened the halyard from where the dealer originally set it.
execellent response, John! I also found that the flutter went away when I tightened the halyard from where the dealer originally set it.
Leach Flutter Ruins the Sail
Most people should know this but I'll say it anyway. A fluttering leach will ruin the sailcloth in short order, so... if your leach is fluttering find some way to stop it quickly. If the leach has fluttered for any length of time I'd say your sail is, well, toast. You might check with a sailmaker but it's been my experience that the standard repair for a leach that has been ruined by flutter is a new sail.
Most people should know this but I'll say it anyway. A fluttering leach will ruin the sailcloth in short order, so... if your leach is fluttering find some way to stop it quickly. If the leach has fluttered for any length of time I'd say your sail is, well, toast. You might check with a sailmaker but it's been my experience that the standard repair for a leach that has been ruined by flutter is a new sail.
More info:
Our 356 does have the roller furling main and I suspect that this problem pertains only to 356's with roller furling. I have tightened the main halyard, there are no wrinkles in the luff so I also suspect that the flutter is not caused by that. But here's a thought: I wonder if the masts on the standard system 356's and the roller furling system 356's have different amounts of bend in them? If they do, and if they use the same sail [the more I think of this it seems too illogical, but you never know], then the flutter might be explained because the sails are cut from the same pattern and are having to fit different shapes.
Our 356 does have the roller furling main and I suspect that this problem pertains only to 356's with roller furling. I have tightened the main halyard, there are no wrinkles in the luff so I also suspect that the flutter is not caused by that. But here's a thought: I wonder if the masts on the standard system 356's and the roller furling system 356's have different amounts of bend in them? If they do, and if they use the same sail [the more I think of this it seems too illogical, but you never know], then the flutter might be explained because the sails are cut from the same pattern and are having to fit different shapes.
leech preservation
Preserving the leech is especially challenging on a mast-furling main. When you furl a conventional main there is no remaining tension on the leech. However, when you furl a mast-furling main it's possible that the leech tension remains static in the roll. It's important to ease the mainsheet, the vang AND THE LEECH LINE before putting the sail away for the day. Otherwise, the leech will develop a permanent cup in the direction it's been rolled. In my own experience, this problem is more pronounced in a panel-constructed main than in a tri-radial, where the stretching is more uniform througout the sail. The problem is further exacerbated by the cheap dacron used in made-in-Hong-Kong OEM sails. And yes, don't ever let the leech "motorboat" in high winds. (Motorboating is what we call flutter when it gets lound enough to generate noise.) This is often a problem on a reach where the leech line can't be safely adjusted because it's so far outboard. In those cases, tensioning the leech via the vang is usually effective. If not, it's important to harden up until you can increase leech line tension, and then fall back off into the reach.
Preserving the leech is especially challenging on a mast-furling main. When you furl a conventional main there is no remaining tension on the leech. However, when you furl a mast-furling main it's possible that the leech tension remains static in the roll. It's important to ease the mainsheet, the vang AND THE LEECH LINE before putting the sail away for the day. Otherwise, the leech will develop a permanent cup in the direction it's been rolled. In my own experience, this problem is more pronounced in a panel-constructed main than in a tri-radial, where the stretching is more uniform througout the sail. The problem is further exacerbated by the cheap dacron used in made-in-Hong-Kong OEM sails. And yes, don't ever let the leech "motorboat" in high winds. (Motorboating is what we call flutter when it gets lound enough to generate noise.) This is often a problem on a reach where the leech line can't be safely adjusted because it's so far outboard. In those cases, tensioning the leech via the vang is usually effective. If not, it's important to harden up until you can increase leech line tension, and then fall back off into the reach.
We have found
that when our leech flutters - adjusting the traveler so that it is in line with the boom eliminates the problem.
that when our leech flutters - adjusting the traveler so that it is in line with the boom eliminates the problem.
Crappy delivery sails
I used to think that the Doyle sails were horrble and now that most new Hunters come with UK sails even they are getting a bad name. I've heard some say that the sails that come with the boats are just delivery sails. I think they have the lowest cost bidder make them to the minimum specification. I think I'd talk to UK to see if they can give you some advice on using the sail or if they can make alterations to it to make it better. That said I haven't seen too much trouble on the sails. You have the really nice traveller so you should be able to tension the leach properly to keep it right.
I used to think that the Doyle sails were horrble and now that most new Hunters come with UK sails even they are getting a bad name. I've heard some say that the sails that come with the boats are just delivery sails. I think they have the lowest cost bidder make them to the minimum specification. I think I'd talk to UK to see if they can give you some advice on using the sail or if they can make alterations to it to make it better. That said I haven't seen too much trouble on the sails. You have the really nice traveller so you should be able to tension the leach properly to keep it right.
Surprising thread
When this thread started, I thought, "somebody forgot to ease their topping lift." Instead, everyone piped up with similar stories. Someday I'm going to have to decide whether or not to buy a boat with in-mast furling, and I'm going to remember this discussion. Paul
When this thread started, I thought, "somebody forgot to ease their topping lift." Instead, everyone piped up with similar stories. Someday I'm going to have to decide whether or not to buy a boat with in-mast furling, and I'm going to remember this discussion. Paul
OEM Sails
Our boat is a 1988 Hunter 35 and during this period, and for quite a while after, all the Hunters came with UK sails. I take my sails off every winter, around mid October, to avoid mildew and weather damage. Whenever I've taken them in to a sailmaker for work - stitching, adding reef points, etc., they have ALL said how "stretchy" the cloth is and remarked about the construction, like the bolt rope setup. This includes Seattle lofts like North, Lidgard, Neil Pride, Sobstad, etc. I would hope that a decade or more later that the material that's used for sail cloth has been improved over what was used back then. Cost-wise, the incremental cost over low-end is very little. For a small amount of money one can get much better sail cloth. Ditto for the weight of the cloth, the next time you get a quote for a sail, assuming the cloth weight is in the light range, ask them how much more for the next heavier cloth - it isn't much more. Knowing how business operates in the far east it is very likely that there is some sail cloth that they make there that is used for all the low-end sails. Remember the days of the Taiwan boats - they just ran the fiberglass molds up or down the street to the various yards to crank out what ever "bluewater" boat you ordered. Some yards did better work than others but often the same mold was used. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an analogous situation with sailmaking in the orient and sail cloth. Even so, I wouldn't classify the OEM sails as terrible but they certainly aren't the best, either, and I think we probably all know that. I managed to stretch (no pun intended) mine out for 10 years, and yes, there were times when they were abused. At the end of the 10 years, though, they were in real nead of being replaced. The now 5-year old North full batten main is beautiful. Great shape, easy adjustments for the leach line, and looks really good. No matter how "cheap" the sails are, they are still expensive, and the best thing to do is try and take care of them. The alternative is expensive and on a 35 footer it's around $5 or 6 boat bucks for a jib and a main the last time I checked. This is why when shopping for a used boat you don't want to just go with the cheapest price.
Our boat is a 1988 Hunter 35 and during this period, and for quite a while after, all the Hunters came with UK sails. I take my sails off every winter, around mid October, to avoid mildew and weather damage. Whenever I've taken them in to a sailmaker for work - stitching, adding reef points, etc., they have ALL said how "stretchy" the cloth is and remarked about the construction, like the bolt rope setup. This includes Seattle lofts like North, Lidgard, Neil Pride, Sobstad, etc. I would hope that a decade or more later that the material that's used for sail cloth has been improved over what was used back then. Cost-wise, the incremental cost over low-end is very little. For a small amount of money one can get much better sail cloth. Ditto for the weight of the cloth, the next time you get a quote for a sail, assuming the cloth weight is in the light range, ask them how much more for the next heavier cloth - it isn't much more. Knowing how business operates in the far east it is very likely that there is some sail cloth that they make there that is used for all the low-end sails. Remember the days of the Taiwan boats - they just ran the fiberglass molds up or down the street to the various yards to crank out what ever "bluewater" boat you ordered. Some yards did better work than others but often the same mold was used. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an analogous situation with sailmaking in the orient and sail cloth. Even so, I wouldn't classify the OEM sails as terrible but they certainly aren't the best, either, and I think we probably all know that. I managed to stretch (no pun intended) mine out for 10 years, and yes, there were times when they were abused. At the end of the 10 years, though, they were in real nead of being replaced. The now 5-year old North full batten main is beautiful. Great shape, easy adjustments for the leach line, and looks really good. No matter how "cheap" the sails are, they are still expensive, and the best thing to do is try and take care of them. The alternative is expensive and on a 35 footer it's around $5 or 6 boat bucks for a jib and a main the last time I checked. This is why when shopping for a used boat you don't want to just go with the cheapest price.
To Paul + others
I'm going to read this thread over weekend as well. Do I understand that concensus is that the problem is with furling main and not fully-battened? We are about to make a decision on a Hunter and, whilst generally prefering a fully-battened main, have been 'leaning' towards the furler because of apparent need on Hunters to reef frequently and reported difficulties with single line reefing. Gratful for any feedback on your experience Paul and others on f-b vs furl
I'm going to read this thread over weekend as well. Do I understand that concensus is that the problem is with furling main and not fully-battened? We are about to make a decision on a Hunter and, whilst generally prefering a fully-battened main, have been 'leaning' towards the furler because of apparent need on Hunters to reef frequently and reported difficulties with single line reefing. Gratful for any feedback on your experience Paul and others on f-b vs furl
356 good! UK main sail bad!
I do not want to in any way give the impression that we are less than satisfied with our 356. We all know that there is no perfect boat, but in this case, it is not the roller furling or the boat itself that I believe to be the problem. I am convinced that Hunter allowed UK to make a bad sail for this boat, and I want to voice that opinion to Hunter. We had a 2001 326 with roller furling and it worked easily, and the UK sail had no flutter (unless we did something wrong). Based on what I have heard hear and experienced myself, the questionnaire Hunter sent me will go as written, blasting the sail. I really don't think anything will come of it, and suppose we will have to start saving for a correctly designed replacement sail. Thanks for all your comments. (I was especially impressed by those of John Farnsworth) Al
I do not want to in any way give the impression that we are less than satisfied with our 356. We all know that there is no perfect boat, but in this case, it is not the roller furling or the boat itself that I believe to be the problem. I am convinced that Hunter allowed UK to make a bad sail for this boat, and I want to voice that opinion to Hunter. We had a 2001 326 with roller furling and it worked easily, and the UK sail had no flutter (unless we did something wrong). Based on what I have heard hear and experienced myself, the questionnaire Hunter sent me will go as written, blasting the sail. I really don't think anything will come of it, and suppose we will have to start saving for a correctly designed replacement sail. Thanks for all your comments. (I was especially impressed by those of John Farnsworth) Al
Leech Flutter
Sailed all weekend in 15 knot winds and could not stop the leech flutter. Just got home and read this thread. Will try to tension the halyard next weekend. Hope it helps as I love the in mast furling but am really disappointed with the sail performance. Marc P
Sailed all weekend in 15 knot winds and could not stop the leech flutter. Just got home and read this thread. Will try to tension the halyard next weekend. Hope it helps as I love the in mast furling but am really disappointed with the sail performance. Marc P
Comment or Feedback for Paul
As requested, here is my feedback with regard to the comment "apparent need on Hunters to reef frequently". I think there are two parts to this. One part would be if the design was, in fact, "tender". This would be caused by a top heavy coach roof and inadequate ballast. I don't think that the coach roof is any heavier than any other boat in it's price class nor the keel inadequate. It should be noted that a fin keel will typically provide somewhat better stability. The other part of the equation that causes "tenderness" is sail area. The advantage to a large sail area is one can sail in light winds where as other boats have to motor. If sailing is what it's about then a large sail area helps. The solution to managing sail area is to have the sail reefed when conditions warrant. While single-line reefing may be a convenience and at the same time a drag (no pun intended), a two-line system works too. One can either work on the conditions to improve the single line system or (1)go to a two-line system or (2) single line with rams horns. Setting the boat up with aids such as halyard markings and practicing to get the bugs out will make setting reefs easier. It goes without saying that it's much easier if one reefs before it's needed. In-boom furling systems are improving all the time and it's likely that one of these could be in your future. Hope this helps.
As requested, here is my feedback with regard to the comment "apparent need on Hunters to reef frequently". I think there are two parts to this. One part would be if the design was, in fact, "tender". This would be caused by a top heavy coach roof and inadequate ballast. I don't think that the coach roof is any heavier than any other boat in it's price class nor the keel inadequate. It should be noted that a fin keel will typically provide somewhat better stability. The other part of the equation that causes "tenderness" is sail area. The advantage to a large sail area is one can sail in light winds where as other boats have to motor. If sailing is what it's about then a large sail area helps. The solution to managing sail area is to have the sail reefed when conditions warrant. While single-line reefing may be a convenience and at the same time a drag (no pun intended), a two-line system works too. One can either work on the conditions to improve the single line system or (1)go to a two-line system or (2) single line with rams horns. Setting the boat up with aids such as halyard markings and practicing to get the bugs out will make setting reefs easier. It goes without saying that it's much easier if one reefs before it's needed. In-boom furling systems are improving all the time and it's likely that one of these could be in your future. Hope this helps.
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