We have a 2 and 1/2 year old Hunter 356. A battery charger output reset circuit breaker popped (located on the battery select panel) and would reset for only a couple of minutes before it would pop again. I called ProMariner, the folks who made the battery charger, who were very helpful, and I discovered that with the battery charger I have, Promariner 4, 1250, the correct circuit breaker should be rated at 60 amps, but the installed one was 40 amps. On the 356, there are two of these breakers, and the one for the house bank was the one that failed. ProMariner said that having 40 amp breakers constituted an "illegal" installation. In order to keep the refrigeration working, fans, dc lights, etc, I swapped the starter battery circuit breaker with the bad one charging the house bank and found that all charging returned to normal = hence the decision that the cb had failed. I am in the process of obtaining a correct cb, but of 60 amp capacity as recommended by ProMariner. Am I the only one who has seen this problem? Al
Anybody seen this yet?
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Al,
Can't answer your question but I wouldn't get upset with the smaller breaker. It can only make your boat safer. (unless a vital safety component were disabled)
Can't answer your question but I wouldn't get upset with the smaller breaker. It can only make your boat safer. (unless a vital safety component were disabled)
Illegal?
Can't imagine what's illegal. To Fred's point, it would be like driving under the speed limit. What could be illegal about that?
Can't imagine what's illegal. To Fred's point, it would be like driving under the speed limit. What could be illegal about that?
Why not make it even safer - 20 amp CBs
It amazes me that some subscribers to this forum would defend a bad installation. I did not say faulty, I said bad. What good is it to the user of equipment on a circuit if that circuit keeps tripping unnecessarily. If the circuit is designed to trip at 60 amps it is no less safe than at 40 amps. To propose the idea that a CB tripping at 40 amps is safer, is obtuse reasoning. Al you did not say whether the equipment was installed by Hunter - it would not surprise me but I doubt it. If however it was Hunter, they should be informed about it. I guess one way (the duh way) for Hunter to view it is to agree it makes the boat safer, so why change from 40 amps. In fact, while we are all at it why not make it even safer and go for a 20 amp CB!!! How does it go again - sticks and stones.....
It amazes me that some subscribers to this forum would defend a bad installation. I did not say faulty, I said bad. What good is it to the user of equipment on a circuit if that circuit keeps tripping unnecessarily. If the circuit is designed to trip at 60 amps it is no less safe than at 40 amps. To propose the idea that a CB tripping at 40 amps is safer, is obtuse reasoning. Al you did not say whether the equipment was installed by Hunter - it would not surprise me but I doubt it. If however it was Hunter, they should be informed about it. I guess one way (the duh way) for Hunter to view it is to agree it makes the boat safer, so why change from 40 amps. In fact, while we are all at it why not make it even safer and go for a 20 amp CB!!! How does it go again - sticks and stones.....
Check wire gauge...
Before you switch out the breaker you might just be sure the wire is sized properly. Although unlikely it's possible that the wire run is sized for 40 amps and you wouldn't want a 60 amp breaker on that.
Before you switch out the breaker you might just be sure the wire is sized properly. Although unlikely it's possible that the wire run is sized for 40 amps and you wouldn't want a 60 amp breaker on that.
Al - a little more information please?
For those of us who don't have a 356 and are trying to follow what your're saying, I was wondering if you could elaborate on a few things: "Battery select panel": is this between the battery(s) and the house panel? Does this panel have a 1-2-on-off selector switch? I assume the battery select panel you're talking about is separate from the main panel. 40a cb: is this on the line that runs from the selector switch and services the main panel? Battery charger cb: is there a breaker or fuse between the battery charger and the batteries? Thanks
For those of us who don't have a 356 and are trying to follow what your're saying, I was wondering if you could elaborate on a few things: "Battery select panel": is this between the battery(s) and the house panel? Does this panel have a 1-2-on-off selector switch? I assume the battery select panel you're talking about is separate from the main panel. 40a cb: is this on the line that runs from the selector switch and services the main panel? Battery charger cb: is there a breaker or fuse between the battery charger and the batteries? Thanks
More information:
First, please understand that I am a novice in this boat maintenance business. I have been continuously amazed and at times bewildered by the knowledge - and vocabulary - of the majority of those posting on this site. So, having been suitably humbled, I offer the following, knowing full well that there are others who would say "been there, done that, and a lot better than he did." For you 356 owners, the name of this circuit breaker is the "batt charger output reset." There are actually two of them, one for one battery bank and one for the house bank. They are located at the approximately 5 oclock and 7 oclock position in relation to the battery select (1-both-2) rotary switch. This panel is located about knee level below the nav station desk and is not a part of the main DC/AC circuit breaker panels. The reset buttons are black and difficult to spot, but the white name letters "batt charger output reset" are clearly seen. Both of these push button reset circuit breakers were installed by Hunter since no work has been done on the panel and we bought the boat new. The cause of the problem was not the small size of the circuit breaker or a fault of the breaker assembly. After closer inspection, I noticed that another wire behind this panel had been rubbing on one of the blade connectors of the circuit breaker and had caused a short. I have since relocated this wire, wrapped it with electrical tape, but not yet replaced it - which definitely needs to be done. I felt forced to open this panel because of my circumstances, and would only with reluctance do it again. The knot of large red wire is a bit awe inspiring. I am glad that the small problem was found quickly, but I never would have opened this panel otherwise. I am going out on a limb to recommend that the other 356 owners CAREFULLY open this panel - held in by four screws at the corners - and check that all their wires are cleanly organized and there is no chance for any of them to be rubbing against something sharp. I found a supplier (Wes Garde) for the breaker by contacting the breaker manufacturer Mechanical Products. These breakers are evidently not very expensive, and with a $50 minimum order, they are working on getting me a "sample" breaker - more news when I hear back from them about that. I have asked for the 60 amp as recommended by ProMariner. Interestingly, Promariner - who has an 800 numnber and answered their phones on the first ring - advised that the breaker prevents return current from the batteries - in my case 400 amp total - and a 60 amp breaker would blow just as easily as the smaller amp varieties in the event that the batteries tried to return current rather than be on the receiving end for current from the charger. As the situation is now, I almost said "currently," my starting battery is not receiving a recharge current, but our house batteries are quite happy with the transplanted circuit breaker. John Nantz, your last question: Battery charger cb: is there a breaker or fuse between the battery charger and the batteries? From what I have seen, there are at least three although they are not all similar in construction. There is a gold inline blade/glass fuse just downstream of the battery charger. It is in a clear plastic housing and you will have to open the nav station settee to see it. Then there is the push button circuit breaker on the battery selector switch panel, and I believe there is a third in the megalocker on the foward inboard side where the bulkhead meets the deck of the locker. Interestingly, ProMariner said that there should be another glass/blade fuse within 6 INCHES of the positive posts of each battery. Not sure why yet. Maybe someone can clear this up. This has definitely been an education - although it has ultimately raised more questions than it has answered. But, it has helped me become more independent in boat maintenance. Fred, after seeing your photo albums, you are definitely one of my heroes. Does your boat have the luxury of these push button reset circuit breakers? (Nice car by the way) Al
First, please understand that I am a novice in this boat maintenance business. I have been continuously amazed and at times bewildered by the knowledge - and vocabulary - of the majority of those posting on this site. So, having been suitably humbled, I offer the following, knowing full well that there are others who would say "been there, done that, and a lot better than he did." For you 356 owners, the name of this circuit breaker is the "batt charger output reset." There are actually two of them, one for one battery bank and one for the house bank. They are located at the approximately 5 oclock and 7 oclock position in relation to the battery select (1-both-2) rotary switch. This panel is located about knee level below the nav station desk and is not a part of the main DC/AC circuit breaker panels. The reset buttons are black and difficult to spot, but the white name letters "batt charger output reset" are clearly seen. Both of these push button reset circuit breakers were installed by Hunter since no work has been done on the panel and we bought the boat new. The cause of the problem was not the small size of the circuit breaker or a fault of the breaker assembly. After closer inspection, I noticed that another wire behind this panel had been rubbing on one of the blade connectors of the circuit breaker and had caused a short. I have since relocated this wire, wrapped it with electrical tape, but not yet replaced it - which definitely needs to be done. I felt forced to open this panel because of my circumstances, and would only with reluctance do it again. The knot of large red wire is a bit awe inspiring. I am glad that the small problem was found quickly, but I never would have opened this panel otherwise. I am going out on a limb to recommend that the other 356 owners CAREFULLY open this panel - held in by four screws at the corners - and check that all their wires are cleanly organized and there is no chance for any of them to be rubbing against something sharp. I found a supplier (Wes Garde) for the breaker by contacting the breaker manufacturer Mechanical Products. These breakers are evidently not very expensive, and with a $50 minimum order, they are working on getting me a "sample" breaker - more news when I hear back from them about that. I have asked for the 60 amp as recommended by ProMariner. Interestingly, Promariner - who has an 800 numnber and answered their phones on the first ring - advised that the breaker prevents return current from the batteries - in my case 400 amp total - and a 60 amp breaker would blow just as easily as the smaller amp varieties in the event that the batteries tried to return current rather than be on the receiving end for current from the charger. As the situation is now, I almost said "currently," my starting battery is not receiving a recharge current, but our house batteries are quite happy with the transplanted circuit breaker. John Nantz, your last question: Battery charger cb: is there a breaker or fuse between the battery charger and the batteries? From what I have seen, there are at least three although they are not all similar in construction. There is a gold inline blade/glass fuse just downstream of the battery charger. It is in a clear plastic housing and you will have to open the nav station settee to see it. Then there is the push button circuit breaker on the battery selector switch panel, and I believe there is a third in the megalocker on the foward inboard side where the bulkhead meets the deck of the locker. Interestingly, ProMariner said that there should be another glass/blade fuse within 6 INCHES of the positive posts of each battery. Not sure why yet. Maybe someone can clear this up. This has definitely been an education - although it has ultimately raised more questions than it has answered. But, it has helped me become more independent in boat maintenance. Fred, after seeing your photo albums, you are definitely one of my heroes. Does your boat have the luxury of these push button reset circuit breakers? (Nice car by the way) Al
Al, thank you!
I installed a ProSine inverter. It takes incoming shore power before it gets to the distribution panel. First it checks the power for quality. If the inverter is on-line, the shore power is held back until the Hz of both systems is in sync and then shore power takes over. It is programed with the shore power breaker size so that the built-in battery charger (100 amp dc) can be modulated if other ships power demands are excessive. That keeps the dock breaker from tripping. All battery charging safety stuff is handled by the inverter computer. Nother to reset. I don't know if that is good or bad yet. Time will, once again, tell. And that truck in my on line pictures is getting tired. Better go fire up the Camaro to shop for a new truck.
I installed a ProSine inverter. It takes incoming shore power before it gets to the distribution panel. First it checks the power for quality. If the inverter is on-line, the shore power is held back until the Hz of both systems is in sync and then shore power takes over. It is programed with the shore power breaker size so that the built-in battery charger (100 amp dc) can be modulated if other ships power demands are excessive. That keeps the dock breaker from tripping. All battery charging safety stuff is handled by the inverter computer. Nother to reset. I don't know if that is good or bad yet. Time will, once again, tell. And that truck in my on line pictures is getting tired. Better go fire up the Camaro to shop for a new truck.
Getting Overwhelming....
Thanks for the additional input as it has helped to clear up some questions. Really good, by the way! You've owned the boat since new to that clears up an unasked question of whether there were previous owner modifications. There should be a fuse between the charger or inverter and the batteries or battery selector switch and this is typically a ceramic-type fuse because they are "cheap" (relatively speaking - just try buying one!) to install. There should be fuses near the batteries as you mentioned but I don't remember the required distance but maybe someone else could check it but thats another issue and not relevant to your triping problem. Seems to me it was a few more inches than six, like 8 or 9? Anyway, maybe the cables attach to the selector switch which is very close and then there is a fuse/breaker after that? I've found that distance to be really difficult to deal with because the cables, 00 in my case, don't bend easily. Your description of the battery selector switch is different from what I've dealt with (which is just the four position type with nothing else). At this point I feel kinda lost. Battery charger output reset - mine (Heart Freedom 10) is on the inverter/charger so apparently Pro Mariner has a "remote" reset? Good idea. Have to get back to work so I can't analyze this any more. However, the fuse/breaker between the battery selector switch and the main panel should be sized for the load of the panel and the wire, as Miles pointed out, should be properly sized also. What I think I was reading was that Pro Mariner said that that fuse/breaker should be larger based on the charger output. If that's what they mean then I would disagree - it should be sized for the panel load and not charger output. Standardly a new boat is delivered in a fairly stripped-down configuration and the dealer plus owner start adding things/loads. As the loads increase the wire/cable connecting the batteries to the main panel, at some point, need to be up-sized otherwise the voltage drop will be too much. If the main panel braker isn't up-sized too then, of course, it will start triping with the increased loads. Maybe/no doubt there will be some more discussion. Anyway, so much fun for now - got to get back to work!
Thanks for the additional input as it has helped to clear up some questions. Really good, by the way! You've owned the boat since new to that clears up an unasked question of whether there were previous owner modifications. There should be a fuse between the charger or inverter and the batteries or battery selector switch and this is typically a ceramic-type fuse because they are "cheap" (relatively speaking - just try buying one!) to install. There should be fuses near the batteries as you mentioned but I don't remember the required distance but maybe someone else could check it but thats another issue and not relevant to your triping problem. Seems to me it was a few more inches than six, like 8 or 9? Anyway, maybe the cables attach to the selector switch which is very close and then there is a fuse/breaker after that? I've found that distance to be really difficult to deal with because the cables, 00 in my case, don't bend easily. Your description of the battery selector switch is different from what I've dealt with (which is just the four position type with nothing else). At this point I feel kinda lost. Battery charger output reset - mine (Heart Freedom 10) is on the inverter/charger so apparently Pro Mariner has a "remote" reset? Good idea. Have to get back to work so I can't analyze this any more. However, the fuse/breaker between the battery selector switch and the main panel should be sized for the load of the panel and the wire, as Miles pointed out, should be properly sized also. What I think I was reading was that Pro Mariner said that that fuse/breaker should be larger based on the charger output. If that's what they mean then I would disagree - it should be sized for the panel load and not charger output. Standardly a new boat is delivered in a fairly stripped-down configuration and the dealer plus owner start adding things/loads. As the loads increase the wire/cable connecting the batteries to the main panel, at some point, need to be up-sized otherwise the voltage drop will be too much. If the main panel braker isn't up-sized too then, of course, it will start triping with the increased loads. Maybe/no doubt there will be some more discussion. Anyway, so much fun for now - got to get back to work!
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