Any resident RSOs in the house?

waternwaves · Feb 7, 2018

You need the following information.

1. Calculation or estimate of material ingested measured in micro, Nano , or pico curies., Or grams,

2. You need to sample any remaining source material on the penetrating implement, which also has to be prepared and weighed., It should be characterized as pc/g or some such.

3. Urine and stools properly collected for 3 days,
4. A certified rad lab, using the correct equipment.

Then you can start calculating dose. Otherwise. They are just guessing based on source info. Ingested radiation is measured in quantities of material, along with the clearance time as measured for you. Dose rate means nothing... It is still in your system.

A tech with a 2 year degree is unlikely to be able to calculate your total dose you receive.

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smokey73 · Feb 7, 2018

Kind of a long post, hope it helps you to ask the right questions.
All the discussions about Alpha and Beta particles not penetrating skin or paper are not relevant to this particular discussion. They are relevant for "external exposure" unless its to the lens of the eye. In fact, ingesting a gamma emitter doesn't give you any appreciable additional radiation damage than external exposure (ie holding it in your hand). That is not true for alpha and beta emitters. When taken internally, they are in "direct" contact with sensitive tissue (like the lining of the stomach, the blood and blood vessels, organs they pass through or where they concentrate, etc. That is why alpha and beta sources are generally considered internal exposure hazards rather than whole body exposure hazards. That's the whole concept of the REM (Roentgen Equivalent Man) which is no longer routinely used in stating dose rates and dose.

First, I'm not sure that the info you gave (2 mrem in the urine) gives us enough information. Is this a total effective dose? Is it a reading taken with some instrument from your urine? The total effective dose is what is important. It can be inferred from measurement in the urine or a whole body scan. If its a measurement of the tritium present in your urine it should not be given as a simple x mrem reading but rather some reading like pico curies/ml or the like (as someone else noted). From that, the known isotope, and the time since ingestion, etc, they should be able to calculate your Total Effective Dose. Assuming you are at a place that routinely handles tritium as a gas or in liquid form it would seem they should already have the monitoring programs and tools necessary to give you the total effective dose. That is the meaningful number that you need to know. Typically, determining a total effective dose is a fairly complex calculation (as has been alluded to above) that is based on the isotope and the particle or gamma it emits (we know in this case Tritium), the amount "ingested" inferred from the scan or urine reading (in this case apparently through a cut or puncture), the half life of the isotope, the effective biological half-life in the body (related to the rate at which it is flushed through the body or retained in target organs) etc. Some isotopes concentrate and are retained in the body. For instance radioactive Iodine concentrates in the thyroid. That is why they give iodine pills in the event of a nuclear plant release to "overload" body with iodine to minimize the absorption in they thyroid. Others concentrate in bone etc. If I remember right Tritium does not concentrate in any particular organ since its basically just attached as one of the atoms on the water molecule. Tritium is an isotope of the Hydrogen atom with two extra neutrons. As a gas, unless fairly concentrated it rises quickly in the atmosphere and dissipates fairly quickly. Some wine in California has "elevated" levels of tritium (that's another story). Tritium, when one of the two Hydrogen atoms in the water molecule is more biologically damaging as it can enter the bloodstream through breathing, or in your case a cut or puncture. It can even be absorbed through the skin.

In short, what you need to know is the "Total Effective Dose" If its 2 mrem, (which is the most likely case) then you are fine and enjoy the beer, make sure you buy what you like and they pay for it!!! You can also do the same thing with water, but who wants to be prescribed "drink water and call me in the morning." Drink beer is a much better option - personally I prefer Yuengling Black and Tan but that's just me. I drink it for medicinal purposes "just in case" I may have taken in a few pico curies of Tritium here or there. If we tried to control all the "hazards in life" to the same level of control as we do radiation, you couldn't have a gas stove in your house, use a Coleman lantern, fry a turkey for Thanksgiving, or fly in a plane more than "x" times a year.

waternwaves · Feb 7, 2018

NOT a scary issue, especially if you already smoke, or fly a lot. But it is a science to accurately measure uptake of Tritium.( and maybe a little bit of art also, I have worked with many cranky scintillation counters and MCA's that would tell lies on occasion)

Pleas make sure you identify to you Health care provider & Industrial Safety individual the ingestion method.
1) tritiated water spilled directly on skin? Y/N
2) tritium bonded with a copolymer and no longer chemically water Y/N,
3) can you identify the polymer, length & weight,
4) Tritium bonded in a salt Y/N
5) Tritium deposited via 2, or 4 above under the skin (subdermal, or intramuscular) Y/N
6) Tritium deposited intravenously Y/N

Most encapsulated tritum materials have large particulate sizes, but relatively lowbonding energy, problem is shielding distance =0mm, (i.e. the polymers break down easily in the human body), and will stay in place , until the chem bonds break down, where they then will be absorbed and introduced into the circulatory system. problem is shielding distance =0,

The amount of uptake through the skin of tritiated water is faily low. as long as it wasnt swallowed.

Ask a lot of questions, many claim to have the answers, will point you to studies, tell you about effects, but you need to determine the the actual quantity and what and where it was. And cross check the work and research.

Sad to say, many professionals will tell you that you do not need to worry, they'll handle it. I am not saying any particular amoutn will or wont be dangerous. But, You are best served by cross checking others results for accuracy.

I have a sad personal story for you.

I came across an individual not so many decades ago, who was in charge of a major medical facilities Radiology Medicine department.
At the time I met him, He could not accurately calculate exposure or dose, or determine energy levels, In addition to his medical degree, he had an Doctorate in mathmatics and somehow and felt very comfortable reviewing studies of Cancer Risk and projections on large populations.

but he could not calculate absorbed dose, and was way too free in ordering multiple CAT scans, and using ionizing sources critical organs recieved very high exposure, Radiation sickness is not fun to watch.

smokey73 · Feb 8, 2018

+1 Waternaves,

From the sounds of this latest info it looks like they have the right tools are doing the right measurements (periodic) and it is flushing out of your system. What naves (for short) mentioned is very good advice. The total absorbed dose (or as I referred as the total effective dose) can only be determined after these periodic readings and extrapolated based on how it was ingested, where the isotope went, how it was retained or not retained in the body, and a lot of very complex considerations. Naves obviously has given you some good questions to ask.

There is no reason to be unduly terrified of working with radiation sources as long as you understand the risks and ways to avoid them. As I mentioned in the end of my rather long post, there are a lot of sources of risks (both radiological and other risks) out there. While radiological risks are certainly real, it is easy to be uneasily "unnerved" by being told we have xyz exposure to radiation. If we controlled all risks like we do risk from radiation exposure we'd all be living in a bubble. We are exposed to radiation (including trace amounts of tritium) on a daily basis. So, my advice is "don't get alarmed, don't go overboard, drink your beer, and ask a lot of questions". Stand by to pee in a bottle for a few more days and even possibly future health monitoring paid for by your company. Ask for and keep all the results that they give you and drink your beer!

By the way, the secret to a long life is:
1. An apple a day (it keeps the doctor away)
2 A beer or glass of wine a day (has been shown to improve overall health and well being)
3. An aspirin a day (shown to have overall beneficial effects on heart health) and
4. A Snickers a day (helps you work, rest and play)

I'll add to that list (in no particular order):
A good wife,
A good dog,
A good sail, and
A good Single Malt Scotch (or adult beverage of your choice)

Bosman · Feb 8, 2018

2mR/h dose rate (not to be confused with absorbed dose) is significant in my opinion. Let me put it this way, in Canada, where non destructive testing is being done by NDT companies, barriers for PUBLIC are set at 2mR/hr. A sealed sources vault must not exceed external dose rate of 0.25mR/h. So, to put it some numbers, over the period of 24hrs you would receive a total dose of 48mR. I do not want to alarm you, but you should consult a specialist.

smokey73 · Feb 8, 2018

Bosman said:
2mR/h dose rate (not to be confused with absorbed dose) is significant in my opinion. Let me put it this way, in Canada, where non destructive testing is being done by NDT companies, barriers for PUBLIC are set at 2mR/hr. A sealed sources vault must not exceed external dose rate of 0.25mR/h. So, to put it some numbers, over the period of 24hrs you would receive a total dose of 48mR. I do not want to alarm you, but you should consult a specialist.

I don't believe the original poster was saying he was being exposed to a DOSE RATE of 2 mrem/hr. but reading later he says its about 2 mrem CEDE. CEDE is the Committed Effective Dose Equivalent and is what I referred to as Total Effective Dose and is a the complex calculation that takes into account the method of ingestion into the body, the isotope itself, its half life, its biological half life, its effect of various organs in the body and a whole host of complex factors. and is as much an art as a science. When a radioactive isotope is taken into the body, the calculation isn't as simple as a penetrating radiation (gamma or neutron) dose rate timesthe time of exposure (X mrem/hr x the time exposed). Here is a link to its definition

https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/basic-ref/glossary/committed-effective-dose-equivalent-cede.html

A CEDE of 2 mrem is pretty small.

Bosman · Feb 8, 2018

Captmayhem said:
they took urine samples 24 and 48 hrs later, both came back as being ~2 milirems which is pretty small

Problem here is wording. It does not say if the laboratory determined his dose from the incident of ~2mR or the sample had a dose rate of 2mR/hr. This makes rather significant difference. I agree with you that dose of 2mR is very insignificant.

Bosman · Feb 8, 2018

Ha! You are okay and have nothing to worry about Sir.

smokey73 · Feb 8, 2018

Bosman, you are right, the initial wording was a little confusing but I interpreted it in a way that makes sense to me.

Capt Mayhem - just to put it into perspective. I have had heart bypass surgery and periodically (about every 3 years) have a radioactive tracer stress test. When that happens I can't go even near the stand in counters at a nuclear facility because I set off all kinds of alarms with the residual radioactive tracer in my body for several weeks. Since I alarm their instruments and they can't determine if what's setting off the alarm is from the test or if I got contaminated in the facility. I am not even allowed to enter an area with potential contamination or the whole plant for that matter since they have the walk through scanners at the exit to most of the facilities where I work.

By the way, a Coleman Lantern Mantle will give a pretty good response on a hand held frisker they use to check for contamination at nuclear facilities. I used to test Rad Techs to see if they could find the mantle in my pocket. The old orange Fiestaware is "radioactive" too and should not be used if the glazing is cracked.

Radioactive particles where they are not supposed to be is something to be respected and controlled, but not feared. It takes a pretty hefty dose or one of the more toxic radioactive materials to cause any measurable health effects if its a "one time" dose (referred to as acute). The long term exposure, like the example of the doctor, is a different issue though. You got a very small "acute" exposure. The EPA drinking water standard (unless they have lowered it) would allow you to get 4 mRem CEDE a year from drinking water (chronic exposure) at the limit of tritium allowed for the rest of your life and that would be considered "safe." Probably not a good idea but still safe. Tritium is produced naturally in the upper atmosphere by our friend the sun and filters its way down into the lower atmosphere where it combines into a water molecule with one of the Hydrogen isotopes as Tritium. The rest comes from past bomb tests, some nuclear power plants and a few other man made sources.

Roadking Larry · Feb 9, 2018

The big question we all need answered though is have you developed any super powers? Do you turn green if you get angry?

Any resident RSOs in the house?

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