Any comments on this near miss??
- Thread starter Jose Venegas
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Good catch fine wine
Its a black inverted cone for motorsailing not a black ball (for anchoring) Maybe thats why those folks at West Marine didn't know what Cap't Jim was talking about
Its a black inverted cone for motorsailing not a black ball (for anchoring) Maybe thats why those folks at West Marine didn't know what Cap't Jim was talking about
Take early steps to avoid collision
I find it hard to believe this skipper sailed all the way to Malaysia knowing so few rules of the road. There is no way the ketch is the stand-on vessel during this encounter because the freighter is constrained by her draft. I suspect this is all made up. In a real situation the ketch skipper should have tried to contact the tanker captain on Ch. 13. At #1, instead of turning Port with another vessel to Port, the ketch skipper should have sounded one short blast to mean "I am altering my course to starboard", and then sterred to starboard.
I find it hard to believe this skipper sailed all the way to Malaysia knowing so few rules of the road. There is no way the ketch is the stand-on vessel during this encounter because the freighter is constrained by her draft. I suspect this is all made up. In a real situation the ketch skipper should have tried to contact the tanker captain on Ch. 13. At #1, instead of turning Port with another vessel to Port, the ketch skipper should have sounded one short blast to mean "I am altering my course to starboard", and then sterred to starboard.
The sailboat shouldn't have assumed
automatically that the tanker was going to cross the channel. Why would he have done that ? Wouldn't he have run into land . I think I would have expected him to go down the channel as it appears he was doing in the last picture(though with out proper charts its hard to tell what is across from the channel - so I'll give the Sailor the benefit of the doubt). I totally agree with Bob "'Nobody ever got run over by a large ship while in 10 feet of water.'" Also, even though I know all shipping should be monitoring ch 16 I don't have the slightest clue why the Sailor didn't try and call the Tanker on Ch13 which is what all those tankers communicate on. The Sailor doesn't seem to be that savvy in that area. From between the time he called on Ch16 to the time they passed it looks like only 3 minutes For all we know the Tanker was busy getting instructions on Ch13 from the Pilot, Harbormaster, etc.
automatically that the tanker was going to cross the channel. Why would he have done that ? Wouldn't he have run into land . I think I would have expected him to go down the channel as it appears he was doing in the last picture(though with out proper charts its hard to tell what is across from the channel - so I'll give the Sailor the benefit of the doubt). I totally agree with Bob "'Nobody ever got run over by a large ship while in 10 feet of water.'" Also, even though I know all shipping should be monitoring ch 16 I don't have the slightest clue why the Sailor didn't try and call the Tanker on Ch13 which is what all those tankers communicate on. The Sailor doesn't seem to be that savvy in that area. From between the time he called on Ch16 to the time they passed it looks like only 3 minutes For all we know the Tanker was busy getting instructions on Ch13 from the Pilot, Harbormaster, etc.
One other thought
Even if the sailboat had the 'inverted cone' flying does anyone really think the tanker would have seen it or cared ? LOL. Think about it, the tanker wasn't even responding to Ch16. You think they are going to get out their binoculars a half a mile away and check whether they see a black inverted cone in a sailboats rigging? LOL. Puh-leeze The answer is no. Plus I bet if you polled boaters 85% of motorboaters & 65% of sailors wouldn't know what it meant.
Even if the sailboat had the 'inverted cone' flying does anyone really think the tanker would have seen it or cared ? LOL. Think about it, the tanker wasn't even responding to Ch16. You think they are going to get out their binoculars a half a mile away and check whether they see a black inverted cone in a sailboats rigging? LOL. Puh-leeze The answer is no. Plus I bet if you polled boaters 85% of motorboaters & 65% of sailors wouldn't know what it meant.
It's hard to tell, higgs, but I suspect
that when the ketch made it's hard turn to port, the tanker also turned to port. Look at the heading of tanker: 46 61 67 73 65 Whether it was a collision avoidance maneuver or just finishing its turn into the channel, we'll never know. And I agree that we weren't there...... but those screen shots are very clear, aren't they? Here's a colreg question for all you experts: Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or priveleged? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
that when the ketch made it's hard turn to port, the tanker also turned to port. Look at the heading of tanker: 46 61 67 73 65 Whether it was a collision avoidance maneuver or just finishing its turn into the channel, we'll never know. And I agree that we weren't there...... but those screen shots are very clear, aren't they? Here's a colreg question for all you experts: Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or priveleged? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Thanks for the trial exercise
It was an interesting exercise, but with 10 minutes and a depth sounder I would have gotten out of his way. If you are motor sailing you are considered a power boat. The rules of the road say port to port in described situation so the turn to port was unwarranted. VHF channel 13 at 1 watt is the navigational-bridge to bridge mandatory channel for ocean vessels in channels. I think the tanker was reducing speed and trying to give way even though he was probaly the constrained vessel. Me personally, I do not like to place my safety in the hands of someone unknown to me so in order to maintain control I would have promptly moved out of the way. It is good to go trough these eexercises on what you would have done as if and when the situation arises you will make a quick decision.
It was an interesting exercise, but with 10 minutes and a depth sounder I would have gotten out of his way. If you are motor sailing you are considered a power boat. The rules of the road say port to port in described situation so the turn to port was unwarranted. VHF channel 13 at 1 watt is the navigational-bridge to bridge mandatory channel for ocean vessels in channels. I think the tanker was reducing speed and trying to give way even though he was probaly the constrained vessel. Me personally, I do not like to place my safety in the hands of someone unknown to me so in order to maintain control I would have promptly moved out of the way. It is good to go trough these eexercises on what you would have done as if and when the situation arises you will make a quick decision.
Motorsailing
The only time the inverted cone becomes an issue is when it would alter the rules. In this case it made no difference to the tanker. A vessel under sail would be the stand-on vessel. A vessel under power in the same position would be the stand-on vessel. From the information available to the yacht on the AIS, it is obvious to me that the the tanker was taking proper action to avoid the yacht. If the yacht was unsure would it be proper to sound 5 blasts? Is it possible that the stories about alleged intentional rammings affected the yacht skipper's judgement? 0850hrs local was certainly daylight at 2.31N. The yacht was west of the tanker so the sun was behind the yacht at that hour. 0850hrs Zulu would make it 1650hrs local, still daylight but the sun would have been behind the tanker. Is it logical to think that a tanker would be trying to run down a yacht in daylight so close to it's destination? The positions shown are very close to Port Dickson. It might have been prudent to know and monitor any vessel traffic channel in addition to #16 and #13. If the yacht had a DSC VHF, they could have attempted contact on channel 70. Not having a small scale chart of the area to plot exact positions relative to the port, it is not possible to know if the tanker's change of course was consistent with heading to Port Dickson unaware of the yacht or if the course change was an effort to stay clear of the yacht. The reduction in speed from 6.1 to 2.6 would give me a clue that the tanker was indeed aware of the yacht and was taking proper action not to impede the yacht's progress. From the tanker's point of view: There's a sailboat off the starboard bow. Let's alter course to starboard and slow down so they can pass. Why is this wanker calling on the VHF, can't he see a 20 degree course change? Oh good, he's calling to say he's taking evasive action, that means he'll turn to starboard ... WTF!?!?! he's turning to PORT and crossing us?
The only time the inverted cone becomes an issue is when it would alter the rules. In this case it made no difference to the tanker. A vessel under sail would be the stand-on vessel. A vessel under power in the same position would be the stand-on vessel. From the information available to the yacht on the AIS, it is obvious to me that the the tanker was taking proper action to avoid the yacht. If the yacht was unsure would it be proper to sound 5 blasts? Is it possible that the stories about alleged intentional rammings affected the yacht skipper's judgement? 0850hrs local was certainly daylight at 2.31N. The yacht was west of the tanker so the sun was behind the yacht at that hour. 0850hrs Zulu would make it 1650hrs local, still daylight but the sun would have been behind the tanker. Is it logical to think that a tanker would be trying to run down a yacht in daylight so close to it's destination? The positions shown are very close to Port Dickson. It might have been prudent to know and monitor any vessel traffic channel in addition to #16 and #13. If the yacht had a DSC VHF, they could have attempted contact on channel 70. Not having a small scale chart of the area to plot exact positions relative to the port, it is not possible to know if the tanker's change of course was consistent with heading to Port Dickson unaware of the yacht or if the course change was an effort to stay clear of the yacht. The reduction in speed from 6.1 to 2.6 would give me a clue that the tanker was indeed aware of the yacht and was taking proper action not to impede the yacht's progress. From the tanker's point of view: There's a sailboat off the starboard bow. Let's alter course to starboard and slow down so they can pass. Why is this wanker calling on the VHF, can't he see a 20 degree course change? Oh good, he's calling to say he's taking evasive action, that means he'll turn to starboard ... WTF!?!?! he's turning to PORT and crossing us?
Distance ...
"Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or privileged?" I can't find a specific distance, however Section II contains the rules for Stand-On vessels and the title is "Conduct of Vessels in Sight of One Another". From this I would answer that the distance varies with range of visibility. Two ships with 100ft bridges in a crossing situation would become burdened at a greater distance than two yachts with a 10ft height of eye.
"Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or privileged?" I can't find a specific distance, however Section II contains the rules for Stand-On vessels and the title is "Conduct of Vessels in Sight of One Another". From this I would answer that the distance varies with range of visibility. Two ships with 100ft bridges in a crossing situation would become burdened at a greater distance than two yachts with a 10ft height of eye.
Moody I agree with most of everything you said
But I'm not so sure 5 blasts on the horn would ever be heard from a Tanker unless you are perilously too close. Even then it would be too late as those tankers can't stop on a dime anyway. I think you'd be just wasting your time and freon and be able to tell the Coast Guard that you sounded 5 blasts (LOL) Also I don't think you'd be able to hail the Tanker with a DSC VHF channel 70 unless you have his #. Its like a telephone number and unless you know it you can't "ring" that persons DSC VHF. (Unless of course you send out a general Mayday alarm and then it goes out to all DSC VHF's)
But I'm not so sure 5 blasts on the horn would ever be heard from a Tanker unless you are perilously too close. Even then it would be too late as those tankers can't stop on a dime anyway. I think you'd be just wasting your time and freon and be able to tell the Coast Guard that you sounded 5 blasts (LOL) Also I don't think you'd be able to hail the Tanker with a DSC VHF channel 70 unless you have his #. Its like a telephone number and unless you know it you can't "ring" that persons DSC VHF. (Unless of course you send out a general Mayday alarm and then it goes out to all DSC VHF's)
DSC VHF
You are right Old Salt. I assumed (incorrectly) that a DCS call could be made using the vessel's call sign. If my brain had been fully in gear, I'd have realized that wouldn't be possible. The reason I asked the 5 blast question is that this particular yacht has alarm speakers mounted at the masthead. If I was going to the trouble of mounting speakers on the mast, I'd rig them to act as signal and fog horns also. Still, the bottom line is that the yacht skipper made the wrong move with the turn to port. My survival instincts are well honed from years of riding motorcycles. I assume that other traffic cannot see me and try to always have an escape route planned. This guy had ample time and opportunity to make it easier for the less maneuverable vessel to keep clear of him. He seemed to get fixated on the AIS display and stopped thinking. I consider it good seamanship to operate my vessel in a manner that requires little or no action for others to keep clear (unless I'm racing against the other vessel). In 40 years I've never had to rely on VHF communication with another vessel to avoid collision. I wonder what his AIS display would have shown if he had altered course to starboard 5-10 degrees as soon as the tanker started it's 20 degree turn to starboard?
You are right Old Salt. I assumed (incorrectly) that a DCS call could be made using the vessel's call sign. If my brain had been fully in gear, I'd have realized that wouldn't be possible. The reason I asked the 5 blast question is that this particular yacht has alarm speakers mounted at the masthead. If I was going to the trouble of mounting speakers on the mast, I'd rig them to act as signal and fog horns also. Still, the bottom line is that the yacht skipper made the wrong move with the turn to port. My survival instincts are well honed from years of riding motorcycles. I assume that other traffic cannot see me and try to always have an escape route planned. This guy had ample time and opportunity to make it easier for the less maneuverable vessel to keep clear of him. He seemed to get fixated on the AIS display and stopped thinking. I consider it good seamanship to operate my vessel in a manner that requires little or no action for others to keep clear (unless I'm racing against the other vessel). In 40 years I've never had to rely on VHF communication with another vessel to avoid collision. I wonder what his AIS display would have shown if he had altered course to starboard 5-10 degrees as soon as the tanker started it's 20 degree turn to starboard?
constant bearing
Is not a term that I have seen mentioned in this thread. Without the need for anything more than your eyes and your brain you can determine whether or not you are on a collision course. Changing course 10 degrees early , when you first see a ship, will take you out of harms way and not cost you anything in terms of your distance made good that day.
Is not a term that I have seen mentioned in this thread. Without the need for anything more than your eyes and your brain you can determine whether or not you are on a collision course. Changing course 10 degrees early , when you first see a ship, will take you out of harms way and not cost you anything in terms of your distance made good that day.
Distance to be a stand on vessel
Response to Moody's: "Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or privileged?" Although the COLREGS are not specific in a single sentence, the way I read 'em, if the other vessel is visible to you and you can determine which of you is the stand on, that's good enough. If you can't determine which is the stand on, like when you can't tell which side the boom is on, then you assume they are.
Response to Moody's: "Is there a maximum or minimum distance at which one vessel becomes 'stand-on' or privileged?" Although the COLREGS are not specific in a single sentence, the way I read 'em, if the other vessel is visible to you and you can determine which of you is the stand on, that's good enough. If you can't determine which is the stand on, like when you can't tell which side the boom is on, then you assume they are.
Moody Agreed. One point on Hailing Speakers
Though they are nice to have, from my experience most commercial marine hailers are woefully inadequate. The ones I have seen are 20 watts and kind of loud, but no where near as loud as a Freon Horn. Those gas horns are a gazillion times louder The hailers are good for calling over to your buddy in another boat and maybe in the quite morning calm as a fog sounder, but I just don't find them that loud.
Though they are nice to have, from my experience most commercial marine hailers are woefully inadequate. The ones I have seen are 20 watts and kind of loud, but no where near as loud as a Freon Horn. Those gas horns are a gazillion times louder The hailers are good for calling over to your buddy in another boat and maybe in the quite morning calm as a fog sounder, but I just don't find them that loud.
Moody I stand Corrected ! You were right
This sailboat skipper DID have that guys VHF DSC MMSI "Phone Number". It was on the AIS transponder readings (number is 533407000) This sailboat guy is a Gadget junkie
This sailboat skipper DID have that guys VHF DSC MMSI "Phone Number". It was on the AIS transponder readings (number is 533407000) This sailboat guy is a Gadget junkie
Ker-Riste even scarier *yks The skipper
is the Commodore in the Seven Seas Cruising Association (SSCA) !! He should know better than to keep his head out of the electronics and out on the Horizon. This guy is certifiable Electronics Loonie. I wonder if he could sail the boat if he lost power. Look at all the crap this guy has Electronics. Compactly mounted in the navigation station area are the following: ACR® Satellite EPIRB, Furuno® 1620 CRT display, Interphase® Probe SONAR, Furuno GP-32 GPS/WAAS Navigator, Garmin® GPSII+, ICOM® M710 HF Radio, Yaesu® FT-890 HF Radio, Sanyo® Worldspace Satellite Receiver, Raymarine 45 VHF Kenwood® AM/FM/cassette/CD (with changer), SCS® PTC-IIex PACTOR Controller, Zip® 650 CD Drive/Burner, Zip®250 Drive, Edgeport® 8 Com Port Expander, Canon® BJC-250 printer, Compaq nx7000 laptop computer, Satellite Telephone, View-Sonic 15" flat screen, View-Sonic Video Processor, Shinco DVD/VCD player, Bose® 151 speakers and A Hornet® Burglar Alarm system This is NOT to mention the A.I.S Transponder reader for which this whole thread is about Spare electronics include a Garmin® GPS-III+, Garmin GP60 GPS; Sony® World Band Receiver, and Compaq Presario 2500 laptop computer Hey I think Electronic Nav Aids are great and I use them all the time, but there is a point when you need to "navigate" a boat for yourself. I bet if he didn't have all those elctronics his natural instincts would have been "Lets steer totally clear of that big ship over there"
is the Commodore in the Seven Seas Cruising Association (SSCA) !! He should know better than to keep his head out of the electronics and out on the Horizon. This guy is certifiable Electronics Loonie
. I wonder if he could sail the boat if he lost power. Look at all the crap this guy has Electronics. Compactly mounted in the navigation station area are the following: ACR® Satellite EPIRB, Furuno® 1620 CRT display, Interphase® Probe SONAR, Furuno GP-32 GPS/WAAS Navigator, Garmin® GPSII+, ICOM® M710 HF Radio, Yaesu® FT-890 HF Radio, Sanyo® Worldspace Satellite Receiver, Raymarine 45 VHF Kenwood® AM/FM/cassette/CD (with changer), SCS® PTC-IIex PACTOR Controller, Zip® 650 CD Drive/Burner, Zip®250 Drive, Edgeport® 8 Com Port Expander, Canon® BJC-250 printer, Compaq nx7000 laptop computer, Satellite Telephone, View-Sonic 15" flat screen, View-Sonic Video Processor, Shinco DVD/VCD player, Bose® 151 speakers and A Hornet® Burglar Alarm system This is NOT to mention the A.I.S Transponder reader for which this whole thread is about Spare electronics include a Garmin® GPS-III+, Garmin GP60 GPS; Sony® World Band Receiver, and Compaq Presario 2500 laptop computer Hey I think Electronic Nav Aids are great and I use them all the time, but there is a point when you need to "navigate" a boat for yourself. I bet if he didn't have all those elctronics his natural instincts would have been "Lets steer totally clear of that big ship over there"HEYYY....We're talking TANKER here....
Inverted cone, 1 blast, 5 blasts, hollering, etc., forget it...."GET OUTTA the WAY OF A TANKER" ... I remember the SS VALDEZ...drunkern' a SKUNK !! (I wonder if the VALDEZ couldve recognized "other" boats in the condition it was IN) "Happy Sailing is defensive Sailing" Just like driving vehicles...assume everyone is DRUNKERN' a SKUNK...which is often TRUE THESE DAYS...Yep you guessed it...I DONT DRINK !!
Inverted cone, 1 blast, 5 blasts, hollering, etc., forget it...."GET OUTTA the WAY OF A TANKER" ... I remember the SS VALDEZ...drunkern' a SKUNK !! (I wonder if the VALDEZ couldve recognized "other" boats in the condition it was IN) "Happy Sailing is defensive Sailing" Just like driving vehicles...assume everyone is DRUNKERN' a SKUNK...which is often TRUE THESE DAYS...Yep you guessed it...I DONT DRINK !!
Two Thoughts
As close as these vessels were the VHF antenna on the tanker my have been too high to receive the signal from the sailboat. The Skipper was an Army guy that explains things on many levels. I would even bet a beer or two he is a product of either West Point, VMI, A&M, The Citadel or maybe Clemson. Not to deride any of those wonderful institutions but they do create an individual with similar mindsets.
As close as these vessels were the VHF antenna on the tanker my have been too high to receive the signal from the sailboat. The Skipper was an Army guy that explains things on many levels. I would even bet a beer or two he is a product of either West Point, VMI, A&M, The Citadel or maybe Clemson. Not to deride any of those wonderful institutions but they do create an individual with similar mindsets.
Time to pull out "Chapmans Piloting"
I copied these from Boatsafe.com Navigating Narrow Channels The rules tell you to stay to the starboard side of narrow channels. Make sure that you do not impede a vessel that is constrained by draft, i.e. a large vessel that must operate within the channel in order to make way safely. When crossing a channel, do so at a right angle and in such a way as to avoid causing the traffic in the channel to make course or speed changes. Commercial Vessel Situations If at all possible stay out of areas where there is commercial vessel traffic such as shipping lanes or traffic separation zones. Large ships and barges have special problems in maneuvering and can not and will not get out of your way. If you must operate around commercial vessels take heed of the following: Avoid ship channels. If you must cross do so at right angles and as quickly as possible. Be alert. Watch for traffic. Be seen, especially at night. Know the sound signals, especially the danger or doubt signal. Keep your VHF radio tuned to channel 16 and listen carefully. Order all aboard to wear PFDs. Be familiar with the area and have current navigation charts. Don’t be a non-survivor of a collision with a large ship. Also the Ball shape is for Anchoring, not motoring.
I copied these from Boatsafe.com Navigating Narrow Channels The rules tell you to stay to the starboard side of narrow channels. Make sure that you do not impede a vessel that is constrained by draft, i.e. a large vessel that must operate within the channel in order to make way safely. When crossing a channel, do so at a right angle and in such a way as to avoid causing the traffic in the channel to make course or speed changes. Commercial Vessel Situations If at all possible stay out of areas where there is commercial vessel traffic such as shipping lanes or traffic separation zones. Large ships and barges have special problems in maneuvering and can not and will not get out of your way. If you must operate around commercial vessels take heed of the following: Avoid ship channels. If you must cross do so at right angles and as quickly as possible. Be alert. Watch for traffic. Be seen, especially at night. Know the sound signals, especially the danger or doubt signal. Keep your VHF radio tuned to channel 16 and listen carefully. Order all aboard to wear PFDs. Be familiar with the area and have current navigation charts. Don’t be a non-survivor of a collision with a large ship. Also the Ball shape is for Anchoring, not motoring.
get the h----l out of the way
In plain language little boats playing in the water must get out of the way when the big boats are working. How many of you would tolerate children playing where you are engaged in serious work and doing something that could harm them. In our little boats we are all playing!! Those big guys are working and would kick us out of the way if they could. I know a retired tug boat captain and he has few kind words for pleasure boaters. From what I have seen he is justified.
In plain language little boats playing in the water must get out of the way when the big boats are working. How many of you would tolerate children playing where you are engaged in serious work and doing something that could harm them. In our little boats we are all playing!! Those big guys are working and would kick us out of the way if they could. I know a retired tug boat captain and he has few kind words for pleasure boaters. From what I have seen he is justified.
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