Any comments on this near miss??
- Thread starter Jose Venegas
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Ya know, if the skipper had of just taken his
boat out of gear and stopped, there would have been no problem. I think that when we apply civilized rules to the third world and expect these people to understand them, we are asking for trouble. Just stop and let him go by. The first rule of the sea is the 'rule of tonnage'.
boat out of gear and stopped, there would have been no problem. I think that when we apply civilized rules to the third world and expect these people to understand them, we are asking for trouble. Just stop and let him go by. The first rule of the sea is the 'rule of tonnage'.
Better to be safe than dead-right!
Not making light of the situation as a near disaster was averted, but me definitely agree with Fred. It's been 28 years since I took the Power Squadron course offered by the Coast Guard back in sunny Puerto Rico, but ain't too old to remember one thing that has stuck with me from that course that has frequently kept me out of harms way and that is the first rule of the road is "tonnage has the right-of-way". A 32' sailboat vs. a cargo ship? It's better to be safe than dead-right! Regards, JonBill
Not making light of the situation as a near disaster was averted, but me definitely agree with Fred. It's been 28 years since I took the Power Squadron course offered by the Coast Guard back in sunny Puerto Rico, but ain't too old to remember one thing that has stuck with me from that course that has frequently kept me out of harms way and that is the first rule of the road is "tonnage has the right-of-way". A 32' sailboat vs. a cargo ship? It's better to be safe than dead-right! Regards, JonBill
Interesting comments on the last line
"Something that did not help our concern was that we have met with two vessels over the past month that collided with cargo ships .. both captains feeling that it was on purpose." *yks Its like playing chicken with an 18 wheeler and you are on a bicycle
"Something that did not help our concern was that we have met with two vessels over the past month that collided with cargo ships .. both captains feeling that it was on purpose." *yks Its like playing chicken with an 18 wheeler and you are on a bicycle
32 VS 400 feet
I sail the chesapeake bay and the traffic ranges from bass fishermen (who treat us as stationary objects) to container ships of humongus size. I can always see these big guys coming and turn so that there is no chance of a close encounter of the worst kind. The term "constant bearing" is an often heard cry aboard our boat and the responce is "where away?" and an order is given for a new course.
I sail the chesapeake bay and the traffic ranges from bass fishermen (who treat us as stationary objects) to container ships of humongus size. I can always see these big guys coming and turn so that there is no chance of a close encounter of the worst kind. The term "constant bearing" is an often heard cry aboard our boat and the responce is "where away?" and an order is given for a new course.
This was/is the root of your problem.
"As the privileged vessel I was required to maintain course and speed." As a young sailor, in about 1982, I had the right of way over a pushboat pushing several barges in the intracoastal canal in Florida. If I had not started the engine and gotten out of there as fast as possible, he would have run slap over me with no change of course or speed. In discussing the incident with others, I learned that that is how it is done, those guys are not going to change course or speed for anyone, and if they have to run over and kill a few people to make the point, that's OK with them.
"As the privileged vessel I was required to maintain course and speed." As a young sailor, in about 1982, I had the right of way over a pushboat pushing several barges in the intracoastal canal in Florida. If I had not started the engine and gotten out of there as fast as possible, he would have run slap over me with no change of course or speed. In discussing the incident with others, I learned that that is how it is done, those guys are not going to change course or speed for anyone, and if they have to run over and kill a few people to make the point, that's OK with them.
not enough information
Not enough information to know for sure, but based on the story posted on the yacht's website ... The skipper of the 32ft ketch is an idiot: "I was motor-sailing *to the west of the channel* leading ..." The SHIP was IN THE CHANNEL? "I began calling the vessel on Channel 16 using it's name and CallSign ..." Channel 16? IIRC 13 is bridge to bridge, no? "As the privileged vessel I was required to maintain course and speed." When is a 32ft sailboat the stand on vessel when crossing a channel? I don't know the channel, but the chances are that the SHIP might have to be in the channel and could very well be constrained by draft. Pedestrians have right of way, that doesn't mean that you should walk across a freeway and expect semi's to avoid you. This guy needs to get a grip.
Not enough information to know for sure, but based on the story posted on the yacht's website ... The skipper of the 32ft ketch is an idiot: "I was motor-sailing *to the west of the channel* leading ..." The SHIP was IN THE CHANNEL? "I began calling the vessel on Channel 16 using it's name and CallSign ..." Channel 16? IIRC 13 is bridge to bridge, no? "As the privileged vessel I was required to maintain course and speed." When is a 32ft sailboat the stand on vessel when crossing a channel? I don't know the channel, but the chances are that the SHIP might have to be in the channel and could very well be constrained by draft. Pedestrians have right of way, that doesn't mean that you should walk across a freeway and expect semi's to avoid you. This guy needs to get a grip.
Humility vs Humungus
Oh yeah, I use to do that, I have 'right of way' this guy better turn or... Let em go, even the nastys that are bulling, is it worth it, and those kind of people are their own worst enemies anyway. In a maritime court, no one is without fault. Now let me say that in another way, if your right of way is absolute, read the 'Rules of the Road' and you will know that statement is false, no one has the 'right of way' in fact it is never adressed. If you are "the Privilaged Vessel" You still are OBLIGATED to take the 'proper actiion' to avoid collision. The court always "spread" the blame between the offenders. I even wave at power-vessels, and if they don't wave back? Did I lose my pride? If so I had none to lose. Think 'worst case scenerio' at all times, and you'll be okay.
Oh yeah, I use to do that, I have 'right of way' this guy better turn or... Let em go, even the nastys that are bulling, is it worth it, and those kind of people are their own worst enemies anyway. In a maritime court, no one is without fault. Now let me say that in another way, if your right of way is absolute, read the 'Rules of the Road' and you will know that statement is false, no one has the 'right of way' in fact it is never adressed. If you are "the Privilaged Vessel" You still are OBLIGATED to take the 'proper actiion' to avoid collision. The court always "spread" the blame between the offenders. I even wave at power-vessels, and if they don't wave back? Did I lose my pride? If so I had none to lose. Think 'worst case scenerio' at all times, and you'll be okay.
Nobody been backed over by a Supertanker
A thought; In 10 years of dodging ships at sea in a little Mac 26, I find the following to have proved the most practical course of action. " No one has ever been backed over by a Supertanker at sea." #1-Assume all ships at sea are piloted by drunks who don't see you or don't care. (It may not be true, but it will put you in the right frame of mind to stay safe). #2-Do everything you can, as soon as you can to transit astern of anything bigger than you are (In my case that includes large sharks).
A thought; In 10 years of dodging ships at sea in a little Mac 26, I find the following to have proved the most practical course of action. " No one has ever been backed over by a Supertanker at sea." #1-Assume all ships at sea are piloted by drunks who don't see you or don't care. (It may not be true, but it will put you in the right frame of mind to stay safe). #2-Do everything you can, as soon as you can to transit astern of anything bigger than you are (In my case that includes large sharks).
no rights vs dead right
I have been riding harleys most all my life and one rule I live by is..If they can do it ,they will.... Here in Oklahoma I learned another rule..... he who has the largest truck has more rights.I made it this far avoiding larger vehicles no matter who is "right" Try driving in New York City or better yet, Boston if you want rights!! Now,what was it you were saying about shipping lanes?
I have been riding harleys most all my life and one rule I live by is..If they can do it ,they will.... Here in Oklahoma I learned another rule..... he who has the largest truck has more rights.I made it this far avoiding larger vehicles no matter who is "right" Try driving in New York City or better yet, Boston if you want rights!! Now,what was it you were saying about shipping lanes?
Simple Rule
About ten years ago I took a coastal cruising/bareboat course in S. Florida. As we entered Government Cut in Miami -- on a 34 ft. Benetau amid all the big cruise ships and tankers -- the instructor explained the "Rules of the Road" in a simple manner: "In a situation like this there's only one rule to remember: the 'Big Boat, Little Boat Rule.' Big Boats always rule."
About ten years ago I took a coastal cruising/bareboat course in S. Florida. As we entered Government Cut in Miami -- on a 34 ft. Benetau amid all the big cruise ships and tankers -- the instructor explained the "Rules of the Road" in a simple manner: "In a situation like this there's only one rule to remember: the 'Big Boat, Little Boat Rule.' Big Boats always rule."
Moody is right, and furthermore...
I think most of you are being excessively hard on the tanker. The ketch skipper is a total IDIOT! He admits to "motor-sailing" so he is not a sailboat, he is a power vessel. Therefore he is not "priviledged". I'll wager the ketch wasn't flying a black ball to indicate he was under power. I've never seen any sailboat in our area (the 5th largest port in the US) fly the black ball even though it is clearly a regulation. When I started sailing, I asked at West Marine (lots of sailors work there) and no one even knew what the proper signal (black ball raised up the signal line) is to indicate motor sailing. You should always consider a tanker (or barge) as "constrained by depth" unless you are in open water. These big tankers have tremendous momentum when fully loaded and can take up to 10 miles to stop under full reverse (and burn hundreds of $ of fuel), so please give them some respect. The tanker's captain did fail to monitor Ch16 and keep a proper lookout, but that is his only mistake that I see. Capt. Cook P.S. Don't assume I'm a tanker captain just because I'm standing up for him. I'm not... I'm just another sailor in an O'Day 27 that is too small to survive a collision with a 200+ ton vessel. If I put myself in such a collision due to my own stupidity, I'd probably be doing you all a favor by improving the gene pool.
I think most of you are being excessively hard on the tanker. The ketch skipper is a total IDIOT! He admits to "motor-sailing" so he is not a sailboat, he is a power vessel. Therefore he is not "priviledged". I'll wager the ketch wasn't flying a black ball to indicate he was under power. I've never seen any sailboat in our area (the 5th largest port in the US) fly the black ball even though it is clearly a regulation. When I started sailing, I asked at West Marine (lots of sailors work there) and no one even knew what the proper signal (black ball raised up the signal line) is to indicate motor sailing. You should always consider a tanker (or barge) as "constrained by depth" unless you are in open water. These big tankers have tremendous momentum when fully loaded and can take up to 10 miles to stop under full reverse (and burn hundreds of $ of fuel), so please give them some respect. The tanker's captain did fail to monitor Ch16 and keep a proper lookout, but that is his only mistake that I see. Capt. Cook P.S. Don't assume I'm a tanker captain just because I'm standing up for him. I'm not... I'm just another sailor in an O'Day 27 that is too small to survive a collision with a 200+ ton vessel. If I put myself in such a collision due to my own stupidity, I'd probably be doing you all a favor by improving the gene pool.
He probably thought he was priviledged....
... because the tanker was on his Port side. (The tanker would see his Red Light). The vessel to starboard is the priviledged / stand on vessel. Still, taking the engine out of gear and slowing would have been prudent, and even required. Jeff
... because the tanker was on his Port side. (The tanker would see his Red Light). The vessel to starboard is the priviledged / stand on vessel. Still, taking the engine out of gear and slowing would have been prudent, and even required. Jeff
Black cone when motor sailing
I was taught that a sailing vessel under power shall exhibit forward a conical shape, apex downwards. Further, a vessel under 12 metres, on inland waters, is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. Black ball to be displayed when anchoring outside a designated anchorage.
I was taught that a sailing vessel under power shall exhibit forward a conical shape, apex downwards. Further, a vessel under 12 metres, on inland waters, is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. Black ball to be displayed when anchoring outside a designated anchorage.
I like the AIS software and display 
but the first screen show me that the tanker was making a sharp turn in a narrow channel and probably COULDN'T have done anything significant to change course or speed. Most certainly, it wasn't going to turn to port and plow a furrow in the green stuff that I think is the shoreline! In the first screen, it looks like the ketch could have altered course slightly to starboard and gotten close to (or out of) the edge of the shipping channel. That move probably would have been greeted with relief on the bridge of the tanker. Along with the other great 'rules of the road' on other posts, I'll add: 'Nobody ever got run over by a large ship while in 10 feet of water.' I kind of wonder how this boat got to Malaysia? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
but the first screen show me that the tanker was making a sharp turn in a narrow channel and probably COULDN'T have done anything significant to change course or speed. Most certainly, it wasn't going to turn to port and plow a furrow in the green stuff that I think is the shoreline! In the first screen, it looks like the ketch could have altered course slightly to starboard and gotten close to (or out of) the edge of the shipping channel. That move probably would have been greeted with relief on the bridge of the tanker. Along with the other great 'rules of the road' on other posts, I'll add: 'Nobody ever got run over by a large ship while in 10 feet of water.' I kind of wonder how this boat got to Malaysia? Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
My mistake
When I looked at the diagrams I got the two boats mixed up ... My conclusions were wrong. From the chart I have, the sailboat was northbound in the channel, the tanker was crossing. The tanker was indeed the burdened vessel. Rule 8 requires: (a)Any action taken to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship. (b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed shall be avoided. ---- Let's look at the tankers actions. 0847hrs Course 46, Speed 6.1 0853hrs Course 61, Speed 4.8 0855hrs Course 67, Speed 3.6 0856hrs Course 73, Speed 2.6 Would you consider a 20+ degree change in course *and* a reduction in speed form 6.1 to 2.6 knots to be readily apparent? I would. From the yacht: "The tanker was coming directly toward us. A turn to starboard would place us directly in front of the tanker's course so I put the wheel hard over to port and increased speed as much as possible." ---- Rule 14 Head-on Situation (a) When two power driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other. ---- The tanker was already altering course to starboard, the yacht then turns TO PORT? I was wrong when I looked at the diagrams, but the skipper is still an idiot: ---- Rule 16 Action by Give-way Vessel Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear. ---- I would call a 20 degree course change "early and substantial". ---- Rule 17 Action by Stand-on Vessel <snip> (c) A power driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation ... shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side. ---- I would say that if a collision had occurred the yacht would be at fault.
When I looked at the diagrams I got the two boats mixed up ... My conclusions were wrong. From the chart I have, the sailboat was northbound in the channel, the tanker was crossing. The tanker was indeed the burdened vessel. Rule 8 requires: (a)Any action taken to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship. (b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed shall be avoided. ---- Let's look at the tankers actions. 0847hrs Course 46, Speed 6.1 0853hrs Course 61, Speed 4.8 0855hrs Course 67, Speed 3.6 0856hrs Course 73, Speed 2.6 Would you consider a 20+ degree change in course *and* a reduction in speed form 6.1 to 2.6 knots to be readily apparent? I would. From the yacht: "The tanker was coming directly toward us. A turn to starboard would place us directly in front of the tanker's course so I put the wheel hard over to port and increased speed as much as possible." ---- Rule 14 Head-on Situation (a) When two power driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other. ---- The tanker was already altering course to starboard, the yacht then turns TO PORT? I was wrong when I looked at the diagrams, but the skipper is still an idiot: ---- Rule 16 Action by Give-way Vessel Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear. ---- I would call a 20 degree course change "early and substantial". ---- Rule 17 Action by Stand-on Vessel <snip> (c) A power driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation ... shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side. ---- I would say that if a collision had occurred the yacht would be at fault.
I'm a little confused
I agree with posts here, When I see a freighter or tow I adjust course as soon as possilbe to avoid it and always to the stern. But I also wonder if either I am missing something or if a lot of you are missing something. In that last frame on the web site, it looks to me as if the tanker made an awfully odd course change. If Jose is trying to make the point that the tanker was aiming for him intentionally, the track shown in that last frame seems to support that.
I agree with posts here, When I see a freighter or tow I adjust course as soon as possilbe to avoid it and always to the stern. But I also wonder if either I am missing something or if a lot of you are missing something. In that last frame on the web site, it looks to me as if the tanker made an awfully odd course change. If Jose is trying to make the point that the tanker was aiming for him intentionally, the track shown in that last frame seems to support that.
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