Hi Peggy - I've been reading all the articles and posts on winterizing - and I still have a question. We started using KO this summer - and then started using CP so we wouldn't interfere with the KO action. We really like both products - the boat smells better than ever, and the 2" of sludge in the bottom of the holding tank is gone. My qusetion is - do we need to use any particular kind of antifreeze since we've become KO users? Thanks - Beth
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
ALWAYS use non toxic marine/rv antifreeze
in the plumbing. It doesn't matter what you use in the holding tank. And while we're on the subject, a lot of people ask me if antifreeze will kill K.O. Whether it does or not is irrelevant (it does, btw) because odor doesn't occur temps below 40 degrees. So there's no need to put anything in the tank to deal with odor, and no need to worry about whether K.O. and antifreeze are compatible. Winterize the system...next spring, flush all the antifreeze out very thoroughly and start over.
in the plumbing. It doesn't matter what you use in the holding tank. And while we're on the subject, a lot of people ask me if antifreeze will kill K.O. Whether it does or not is irrelevant (it does, btw) because odor doesn't occur temps below 40 degrees. So there's no need to put anything in the tank to deal with odor, and no need to worry about whether K.O. and antifreeze are compatible. Winterize the system...next spring, flush all the antifreeze out very thoroughly and start over.
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Rich
discussion
My owner's manual suggested using an ethylene glycol based anti-freeze in the head on the advice that petroleum based anti-freeze may damage the rubber parts of the head. Should I disregard that info, or is marine/rv anti-freeze not petroleum based. (new boat owner, so maybe a dumb question).
My owner's manual suggested using an ethylene glycol based anti-freeze in the head on the advice that petroleum based anti-freeze may damage the rubber parts of the head. Should I disregard that info, or is marine/rv anti-freeze not petroleum based. (new boat owner, so maybe a dumb question).
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
They're both petroleum based
Ethylene and propylene are both petroleum based products...so are your white sanitation hoses and plastic tanks. So from that standpoint, both are equally "damaging" to seals etc. However, ethylene glycol has other properties that not only are highly toxic, but considerably more destructive to hoses, seals etc than propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is considered to be the same kind of "toxic" waste as oil, and you're not supposed to dispose of it overboard. Which means it doesn't belong in the sewer, marina holding tank or septic system either...how are you gonna get it out the tank without putting it there? Which toilet mfr recommends this?
Ethylene and propylene are both petroleum based products...so are your white sanitation hoses and plastic tanks. So from that standpoint, both are equally "damaging" to seals etc. However, ethylene glycol has other properties that not only are highly toxic, but considerably more destructive to hoses, seals etc than propylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is considered to be the same kind of "toxic" waste as oil, and you're not supposed to dispose of it overboard. Which means it doesn't belong in the sewer, marina holding tank or septic system either...how are you gonna get it out the tank without putting it there? Which toilet mfr recommends this?
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Patrick Ewing
"Petroleum based antifreeze" is kind of like
"natural food" ie: more a matter of philosophy than fact. Both propylene and ethylene glycols are manufactured by the partial oxidation of substances which can be derived from a number of sources. The following are quotes from scientific documents and are typical of what you will find in the scientific literature. RE: Environmental "Toxicity" Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol have about the same low degree of toxicity to aquatic life. Both substances are generally very benign. If one used the classification system of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol would fall easily into the "relatively non-toxic" category. Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol-based fluids degrade very quickly-although speed of degradation varies with the temperature. Generally, the cooler the temperature, the more slowly the substances degrade. During the degradation process, the microbes feeding on the glycol consume oxygen from the water. If the glycol is degrading quickly and a lot of oxygen is being consumed, there may not be enough oxygen left in the water for the other aquatic organisms to use. Because ethylene glycol is a smaller molecule than the propylene glycol molecule, less oxygen is required to degrade the ethylene glycol. This, too, is an advantage for ethylene glycol and ethylene glycol-based fluids. RE: Human "Toxicity" "The estimated lethal dose of ethylene glycol for an average size person is about 100 milliliters - or less than one-half cup. In lesser amounts, ethylene glycol is known to cause serious kidney damage and central nervous system depression." "Neither ethylene glycol nor propylene glycol appears in the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) list of "hazardous substances" or "extremely hazardous substances." However, by virtue of its oral toxicity, ethylene glycol is classified as a "toxic chemical" under SARA, Title III, Section 313" (as are many other common substances such as ethanol etc.) "Propylene glycol exhibits low toxicity when ingested, as long-term use in approved food and pharmaceutical applications has demonstrated." "... propylene glycol is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) 21 {CFR 184.1666} for internal consumption and is cleared for use as direct and indirect additive in food and pharmaceuticals..." Propylene glycol is used in many kinds of soda pop as a sweetener. Note: Do not allow small animals access to either substance. Both are sweet and both will kill small animals which will drink all of it they can. Also - just because these are both environmentally "benign", do not dispose of them foolishly. A small amount ( a few gallons ) will not cause much harm to a sewage treatment system or to the water your boat floats in. Both are alcohols and neither will likely cause damage to common plastics such as hose materials.
"natural food" ie: more a matter of philosophy than fact. Both propylene and ethylene glycols are manufactured by the partial oxidation of substances which can be derived from a number of sources. The following are quotes from scientific documents and are typical of what you will find in the scientific literature. RE: Environmental "Toxicity" Ethylene glycol and propylene glycol have about the same low degree of toxicity to aquatic life. Both substances are generally very benign. If one used the classification system of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol would fall easily into the "relatively non-toxic" category. Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol-based fluids degrade very quickly-although speed of degradation varies with the temperature. Generally, the cooler the temperature, the more slowly the substances degrade. During the degradation process, the microbes feeding on the glycol consume oxygen from the water. If the glycol is degrading quickly and a lot of oxygen is being consumed, there may not be enough oxygen left in the water for the other aquatic organisms to use. Because ethylene glycol is a smaller molecule than the propylene glycol molecule, less oxygen is required to degrade the ethylene glycol. This, too, is an advantage for ethylene glycol and ethylene glycol-based fluids. RE: Human "Toxicity" "The estimated lethal dose of ethylene glycol for an average size person is about 100 milliliters - or less than one-half cup. In lesser amounts, ethylene glycol is known to cause serious kidney damage and central nervous system depression." "Neither ethylene glycol nor propylene glycol appears in the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) list of "hazardous substances" or "extremely hazardous substances." However, by virtue of its oral toxicity, ethylene glycol is classified as a "toxic chemical" under SARA, Title III, Section 313" (as are many other common substances such as ethanol etc.) "Propylene glycol exhibits low toxicity when ingested, as long-term use in approved food and pharmaceutical applications has demonstrated." "... propylene glycol is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) 21 {CFR 184.1666} for internal consumption and is cleared for use as direct and indirect additive in food and pharmaceuticals..." Propylene glycol is used in many kinds of soda pop as a sweetener. Note: Do not allow small animals access to either substance. Both are sweet and both will kill small animals which will drink all of it they can. Also - just because these are both environmentally "benign", do not dispose of them foolishly. A small amount ( a few gallons ) will not cause much harm to a sewage treatment system or to the water your boat floats in. Both are alcohols and neither will likely cause damage to common plastics such as hose materials.
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Rich
continued discussion
The manufacturer is, I believe, ITT Jabsco. Another name on the first page of the manual is PAR. The direct quote comes under the Maintenance/Service Instructions and is as follows: "If charging the holding tank with anti-freeze by pumping it through the toilet, use only the ethylene glycol based anti-freeze. To use petroleum based anti-freeze may cause damage to the internal rubber toilet parts." The manual came with the Hunter Owner's manual for a 1996 29.5. The Models pertaining to the manual for the head are 29090-0000 and 29120-000. I am winterizing my boat (only recently bought) this weekend but will wait for your response before I work on the head system.
The manufacturer is, I believe, ITT Jabsco. Another name on the first page of the manual is PAR. The direct quote comes under the Maintenance/Service Instructions and is as follows: "If charging the holding tank with anti-freeze by pumping it through the toilet, use only the ethylene glycol based anti-freeze. To use petroleum based anti-freeze may cause damage to the internal rubber toilet parts." The manual came with the Hunter Owner's manual for a 1996 29.5. The Models pertaining to the manual for the head are 29090-0000 and 29120-000. I am winterizing my boat (only recently bought) this weekend but will wait for your response before I work on the head system.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Rich, use only non-toxic marine/rv antifreeze...
Commonly referred to as "the pink stuff." Follow the directions in the article on winterizing plumbing in the Head Mistress reference library.
Commonly referred to as "the pink stuff." Follow the directions in the article on winterizing plumbing in the Head Mistress reference library.
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Rich
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