Anti-Freeze In The Bilge-Which Type?

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Ducati

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Nov 19, 2008
380
Boatless Boatless Annapolis
Once out of the water, can I put the same anti-freeze that we use for our fresh water system in the bilge?
It costs $3.50 per jug versus the $12.00 that we use for the engine.

Thanks
 
Mar 20, 2007
500
Catalina 355 Kilmarnock, VA
DO NOT use engine coolant antifreeze (ethylene glycol) in the bilge - it's toxic, and is illegal to discharge over the side. The pink non toxic water system antifreeze (propylene glycol) is fine in the bilge.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,670
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
DO NOT use engine coolant antifreeze (ethylene glycol) in the bilge - it's toxic, and is illegal to discharge over the side. The pink non toxic water system antifreeze (propylene glycol) is fine in the bilge.
No. It is a common misconception that PG (pink) antifreeze is less toxic to fish that EG (automotive).
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/11/marine-winterizing-antifreeze-and.html
http://www.riskworld.com/Abstract/1996/sraeurop/ab6ad040.htm
But you shouldn't take my word for it; this information can be gleaned from the PG and EG MSDS sheets, which list marine toxicity. Additionally, the COD of the two is very similar (PG is actually worse, as more is required to ge the same freeze protection).

When comparing products, look at the amount needed to get a certain freeze point. Typically the $3.50/jug type is used neat, while EG concentrate can be diluted 6:1 to get the same +12F freeze point (burst points are completely different and are discussed in the links above). Additionally, you don't need the $12 stuff; the cheapest EG concentrate will do fine. Also, a cup or 2 of concentrate will gradually be diluted by leakage; pre-diluted AF might be diluted too far, to uselessness.

Personally, I think it boarder on false advertising, that they are allowed to advertise burst point rather than list the glycol content. But the whole industry has tacitly agreed that it is more profitable to withhold the information and sell water.

For myself, if I hauled, I would simply use the the used AF from the engine in the bilge. Free.

All this said, ONLY PINK (PG) antifreeze should go in the potable water system. There is a very signifigant difference in human toxicity.
 

Ducati

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Nov 19, 2008
380
Boatless Boatless Annapolis
No Illegal Dumping...

DO NOT use engine coolant antifreeze (ethylene glycol) in the bilge - it's toxic, and is illegal to discharge over the side.
We never discharge either types of antifreeze into the water. Before the boat goes back in, we capture it and then deposit in our clubs chemical waste storage containers.

We do however pee overboard...
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
We never discharge either types of antifreeze into the water. Before the boat goes back in, we capture it and then deposit in our clubs chemical waste storage containers.

We do however pee overboard...
AF in the bilge is often a "feel good" measure that really does not do much if you store mast up or uncovered and have leakage. I am on boats quite often in the middle of the winter and get to see the frozen solid, diluted pink bilges. While it might help some any dilution can raise your burst point to a temp where you may still burst things, but what's in there to burst? Mostly bilge pumps. I have seen a fair number of bilge pumps cracked and even more melted down because an owner forgot to disconnect the batteries.

A garboard drain works best but that is a PITA to install on many boats and can't be done on some newer boats at the low point. In many bilges freezing won't hurt it, except for the bilge pump, which can be un-clipped from the base and raised to prevent it sitting in potentially freezing liquid.

Adding pink won't hurt anything but your wallet, but it may not help either if you have lots of leakage and then only serves to make cleaning the bilge in the spring a slimy project.. As Thinwater said to get the best freeze/burst protection you want the undiluted PG stuff not the standard -50F which is really only about 30-32% PG IIRC..

Thinwater is spot on as usual..
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,336
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
The pink antifreeze looses it's properties to lower freezing point upon dilution. In other words, it's useless in a bilge unless you have NO leakage in which case you wouldn't need it in the first place.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,239
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Frozen water in my bilge has never damaged my bilge pump. But I think I'll unclip it this winter to raise it above the level where I normally have frozen water, maybe a few inches. A little water always leaks from the mast.
 
May 24, 2004
7,164
CC 30 South Florida
Yes, it may not help very much unless you have a leak. See, everything flows into the bilge so you may not be able to get antifreze to water trapped in the stringers.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Mar 26, 2011
3,670
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Use the 'purple' -60°F or -100f°, etc. Prop. Glycol if you have leaks as it will take 'more dilution' to reach its freezing point.

http://www.lyondellbasell.com/techlit/techlit/2509.pdf
Do remember that the jugs are NEVER labled for freeze point (the link above is a freeze point chart), always burst point, which is much different. Please see the link in my first post.
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/11/marine-winterizing-antifreeze-and.html

Yeah, the burst point thing is a pet peave of mine. I hate deceptive labling.
 

JohnS

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Sep 25, 2008
177
Islander (Wayfarer/McGlasson) 32 St Georges Harbor
No. It is a common misconception that PG (pink) antifreeze is less toxic to fish that EG (automotive).
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2009/11/marine-winterizing-antifreeze-and.html
http://www.riskworld.com/Abstract/1996/sraeurop/ab6ad040.htm
But you shouldn't take my word for it; this information can be gleaned from the PG and EG MSDS sheets, which list marine toxicity. Additionally, the COD of the two is very similar (PG is actually worse, as more is required to ge the same freeze protection).
Interesting read. From the conventional wisdom espoused around the web, I assumed that it was actually some kind of EPA ban on EG in raw water systems (due to it inevitably ending up going overboard). Is that the case? Anyone know if there's a MD state law regarding it?

One notable point mentioned in the blog is that antifreezes sold primarily for engine cooling systems contain additional additives for things like corrosion protection. I imagine the chemicals vary from one manufacturer to another. Would that not be a reason to prefer RV type PG in winterizing a raw water cooled engine?
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,670
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Interesting read. From the conventional wisdom espoused around the web, I assumed that it was actually some kind of EPA ban on EG in raw water systems (due to it inevitably ending up going overboard). Is that the case? Anyone know if there's a MD state law regarding it?

One notable point mentioned in the blog is that antifreezes sold primarily for engine cooling systems contain additional additives for things like corrosion protection. I imagine the chemicals vary from one manufacturer to another. Would that not be a reason to prefer RV type PG in winterizing a raw water cooled engine?


Discharging either would be technically illlegal, but some is unavoidable. Most airplanes are de-iced with PG, but there is still some EG out there. The "reportable quantity" for spills of EG is quite large--several tons, I believe. Those that do restrict discharge specifically, generally treat EG and PG the same.

Certainly the largest discharge of EG and PG to the Chesapeake is BWI airport. There is some discussion here that should put a 1-gallon discharge into perspective.http://www.marylandaviation.com/_me...vironmentaldocs/New_Horizons_BWI_Overview.pdf
As always, recycle what you can. But note that EG and PG are treated in a similar manner.

The corrosion inhibitors these days are generally 1-2 percent of an organic acid, something like benzoic or azaelic acid, some salts, and ppm levels of a thiazole coumpound. I'm not certain what is in the RV antifreeze, but I'm guessing there are some corrosion inhibitors, since raw glycols are a bit corrosive.

The Chesapeake Bay Foundation says "When you recycle, be sure you don't mix propylene glycol and ethylene glycol types of antifreeze", which is just plain false, as the recycler that serves the MES (government drop-off sites) mixs them together and is glad to have both. Good luck finding a waste PG tank; doesn't exist and there is no need.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
I'm with thinwater on this. I use old automotive AF (green) for the head and raw water in the engine (it's free!). Its freeze properties remain even when dirty and it all gets recycled in the end anyway. I pump them out before launch. I always drain the fresh water tank and lines so anti freeze there is not needed. My bilge is always dry so not needed there either, though as Maine Sail says it fairly useless in the bilge.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
There are two types of PG antifreeze--the non-toxic potable "pink stuff" for use in fresh water and sanitation systems and an automotive version that's LESS toxic than EG, but NOT NON-toxic.

Make sure that the analyses you find make note of the difference.

That said...seems to me it would make a lot more sense to use a dinghy bailer or wet vac, or whatever to remove all the water from the bilges after the boat comes out, and then leave all the thru-hulls open, than to put ANY antifreeze into it. And if you need an excuse to check on the boat every few weeks (foolish neglect if you don't), removing any new water that finds it's way in provides an excellent one.
 
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