I'm sorry to say it's about time to winterize the boat. In the past I used the lighter pink RV/Boat antifreeze for BOTH the head and the engine. But should I be using heavier duty anti-freeze for the engine? Like Prestone, for example? I have a 20GM Yanmar. Thanks for any light you can shed on the right anti-freeze to use. Steve
Anti-Freeze "Color?"
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-100 Antifreeze
Check out the -80 to -100 Seafit Antifreeze (potable) rather than an automotive type which will do fine but is bad for the environment. The 'Pink stuff' is likely to turn to slush at normal winter temperatures, particularly if it is mixed with water left in the waterlift muffler or heat exchanger. Go $10 bucks and get the good stuff to be safe and sleep well when the wind chill takes it into the single digits.
Check out the -80 to -100 Seafit Antifreeze (potable) rather than an automotive type which will do fine but is bad for the environment. The 'Pink stuff' is likely to turn to slush at normal winter temperatures, particularly if it is mixed with water left in the waterlift muffler or heat exchanger. Go $10 bucks and get the good stuff to be safe and sleep well when the wind chill takes it into the single digits.
Don't waste your money
Pink slush will not hurt your engine and wind chill does not lower the temperature of anything that has no wetted surface. I live in Maine and I have always used the pink stuff. I winterize the plumbing in my camp with it and it gets mixed with water in the bowl of all my toilets. I use it in my water/waste and engine systems on my boats. I have been using it for many years with no problems. I have never seen it freeze. Slush does not have the same expansion characteristics as frozen water. Tim R.
Pink slush will not hurt your engine and wind chill does not lower the temperature of anything that has no wetted surface. I live in Maine and I have always used the pink stuff. I winterize the plumbing in my camp with it and it gets mixed with water in the bowl of all my toilets. I use it in my water/waste and engine systems on my boats. I have been using it for many years with no problems. I have never seen it freeze. Slush does not have the same expansion characteristics as frozen water. Tim R.
Only solid ice will expand !!!!!!
Ethyl alcohol is an excellent antifreeze for potable water systems. The "pink stuff" is propylene glycol, a high calorie nutrient. All manner of animate things thrive on it because it is non-toxic. So in the spring as we recommission our boats we add lots of chlorine based bleach to kill and remove all of the microorganisms that thrived on the "pink stuff" during the winter.
Ethyl alcohol is an excellent antifreeze for potable water systems. The "pink stuff" is propylene glycol, a high calorie nutrient. All manner of animate things thrive on it because it is non-toxic. So in the spring as we recommission our boats we add lots of chlorine based bleach to kill and remove all of the microorganisms that thrived on the "pink stuff" during the winter.
"Pnk stuff" for the plumbing...
automotive for the engine because it has rust inhibitors in it that the pink stuff doesn't. Never use automotive antifreeze in the plumbing because it's NOT entirely non-toxic. Ethyl alcohol will break down hose resistance to odor permeation and can damage soft rubber parts in toilets. Recommissioning the fresh water system in the spring according to directions I've posted here a zillion times over the years--and will most likely have to post again at least half a dozen times next spring--will not only completely eliminate the taste smell, but will kill any "critters" that managed to survive being frozen, along with all the molds and fungi that set up housekeeping the plumbing during the season.
automotive for the engine because it has rust inhibitors in it that the pink stuff doesn't. Never use automotive antifreeze in the plumbing because it's NOT entirely non-toxic. Ethyl alcohol will break down hose resistance to odor permeation and can damage soft rubber parts in toilets. Recommissioning the fresh water system in the spring according to directions I've posted here a zillion times over the years--and will most likely have to post again at least half a dozen times next spring--will not only completely eliminate the taste smell, but will kill any "critters" that managed to survive being frozen, along with all the molds and fungi that set up housekeeping the plumbing during the season.
While the 'Pink' Stuff may
be 'good enough' most winters, and a few bucks cheaper, I use the -100 Green stuff in my raw water engine system as you just never know how really cold its going to get. Depending on global warming to keep the innards of your engine from freezing for the sake of a few bucks seems like bad math to me.
be 'good enough' most winters, and a few bucks cheaper, I use the -100 Green stuff in my raw water engine system as you just never know how really cold its going to get. Depending on global warming to keep the innards of your engine from freezing for the sake of a few bucks seems like bad math to me.
Use the Blue Stuff
The fresh water pump in the Yanmar is made of aluminum. The Pink Stuff will damage it. Use Blue. Call your Yanmar dealer or authorized repair shop for details.
The fresh water pump in the Yanmar is made of aluminum. The Pink Stuff will damage it. Use Blue. Call your Yanmar dealer or authorized repair shop for details.
Antifreeze disposal
How do those of you using non-potable antifreeze in your engine freshwater cooling system dispose of the anti-freeze when recommissioning in spring? Our storage yard prohibits spilling it out on the ground, though I'm not sure how they police that. The potable stuff ends up in the lake I suppose.
How do those of you using non-potable antifreeze in your engine freshwater cooling system dispose of the anti-freeze when recommissioning in spring? Our storage yard prohibits spilling it out on the ground, though I'm not sure how they police that. The potable stuff ends up in the lake I suppose.
Antifreeze disposal
EG Antifreeze (and I suppose other) is very deadly to animals and they love it. Some recycle centers take it in, some gas stations have a dump site and at least in my case, the county recycle center (dump) has a dump site for oil and antifreeze, for free.
EG Antifreeze (and I suppose other) is very deadly to animals and they love it. Some recycle centers take it in, some gas stations have a dump site and at least in my case, the county recycle center (dump) has a dump site for oil and antifreeze, for free.
Anti freeze color
Steve L: You, and all readers of this forum would do yourselves a great favor by staying far far away from using color to differentiate between auto antifreeze (ethylene glycol, a very toxic i.e. fatal poison); and RV antifreeze (polypropylene glycol, Generally Regarded As Safe ("GRAS")by the Food and Drug Administration at low levels of ingestion. Different manufacturers use different colors for their products, so color is not safe to use as a discriminator of the type of antifreeze. For instance I have used green auto antifreeze and yellow auto antifreeze in my car, both. Both were ethylene glycol. So forget about color!!! Multi year, premixed auto antifreeze,(50%)ethylene glycol, is the product recomended by Yanmar for their engine cooling systems (the closed heat exchange system only. It has corrosion inhibiters in it. Use of it in any drinking water system is very dangerous. RV antifreeze will do just fine for protecting the engine's raw water cooling system and the boat's fresh water systems (less the fresh water heater, which should be emptied and bypassed when laying up the boat.)
Steve L: You, and all readers of this forum would do yourselves a great favor by staying far far away from using color to differentiate between auto antifreeze (ethylene glycol, a very toxic i.e. fatal poison); and RV antifreeze (polypropylene glycol, Generally Regarded As Safe ("GRAS")by the Food and Drug Administration at low levels of ingestion. Different manufacturers use different colors for their products, so color is not safe to use as a discriminator of the type of antifreeze. For instance I have used green auto antifreeze and yellow auto antifreeze in my car, both. Both were ethylene glycol. So forget about color!!! Multi year, premixed auto antifreeze,(50%)ethylene glycol, is the product recomended by Yanmar for their engine cooling systems (the closed heat exchange system only. It has corrosion inhibiters in it. Use of it in any drinking water system is very dangerous. RV antifreeze will do just fine for protecting the engine's raw water cooling system and the boat's fresh water systems (less the fresh water heater, which should be emptied and bypassed when laying up the boat.)
Antifreeze facts -
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions. 1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). I doubt any sailboat meets the requirments. However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF. 2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same. 3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg. 4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage. 5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry! 6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush. 7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different! The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system. 8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
I am a chemical engineer (24 years exp.) and specialize in glycol production, recycling, and engine coolant formulation. There is a lot of mis-information - but a lot of good posts in this thread - out there; let's see if I can answer some of these questions. 1. Antifreeze for diesel. Technically, "heavy duty" diesels are better off with "heavy duty" antifreeze, but that is only in-service (not storage) and only certain high-load, wet sleave aplications (big 250+ HP Cummins in truck - wet sleave design). I doubt any sailboat meets the requirments. However, I would be wary of RV antifreeze meeting the corrosion protection requirments, as posted. The proper and normal inhibitors (borate, tolyoltriazole, nitrite etc.) are slightly toxic and are not permited in RV antifreeze. I would recomend any good auto AF. 2. Bacteria. High risk if weak (under 30%) or pH low (under 10). Remember, your car sterilizes every time it runs. Best bet is >40% auto AF (higher pH than RV... generally). In practice, this will never "go bad." EG vs PG are the same. We run biodegradability tests, and see no difference. They infect the same. 3. Toxicity. Don't go near the potable water system with vehical AF. Risk is simply too great. You may forget, or miss a dead leg. 4. Environment. Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment. Both are equally degradeable. both are non-toxic to fish/marine org. Neither are EPA listed marine polutants. EG is toxic primarily to mammals, and particularly hard on cats. Neither should go in the water (oxygen demand), but neither will do great harm. Rather like a little sterile sewage. 5. Color. As stated, a poor determinant for any purpose. We make all kinds of formulas, all sorts of colors, to meet manufacturer specs. Very confusing... sorry! 6. Recycling. EG, PG, and glycerin (cheaper than either now because of bio-diesel - didn't know that huh?) - no problem. But try to limit the amount of water. Many recyclers will reject the material if over 30% water. They don't want your flush. 7. Freeze point. I hate the 100F "burst point" claims. It is close to false advertising, since it hides the true composition and safe dilution rates. The dilution panel on the back of auto AF is far more informative and honest. Burst point refers to the temp where a specific metal pipe can burst. Plastic is different! The potencial chop is this; if the slush forms repeatedly, then melts, then reforms, it will carry all of the water to a high point. That high point will have no AF and can burst. I ripped 20 feet of schd 40 steel pipe open in just that way, with a 0F mixture in the system. The pipe was only ~ 25F protection when it burst. It all depends on freeze/thaw cyles and the complexity of the system. 8. Additives. If you MUST treat your engine right, there are PG automotive AF types out there (Sierra). I doubt there is anything special about yanmar blue. Or you could add Pencol or Fleet Guard additives. They are not for freeze point - just corrosion.
Dexcool Antifreeze
I'm surprised Mack Boring would recommend Dexcool. I've just spent $1,000 in repairs because the Dexcool antifreeze literally ate thru the intake gaskets and waterpump seals on a 2002 Pontiac. The system was professionally cleraned and flushed at least twice in two years and the damage continues in a significant number of GM cars without warrranty coverage. I don't know if Yanmar's gaskets can withstand a Dexcool attack and I for one am not willing to find out!
I'm surprised Mack Boring would recommend Dexcool. I've just spent $1,000 in repairs because the Dexcool antifreeze literally ate thru the intake gaskets and waterpump seals on a 2002 Pontiac. The system was professionally cleraned and flushed at least twice in two years and the damage continues in a significant number of GM cars without warrranty coverage. I don't know if Yanmar's gaskets can withstand a Dexcool attack and I for one am not willing to find out!
Cat Sailor Good info.
One problem you don't differentiate between the Raw Water Circuit of our engines and the closed circuit "Fresh water" Circuit. I am pretty sure the questions being asked here are with regards to the " Raw Water Circuit" of our engines - I think it is VERY important that we differentiate between the Raw Water Circuit of our engines and the closed circuit "Fresh water" Circuit with ANY points we make. Please note this discussion is about "Winterizing" a boat so discussions about the "Fresh water" Circuit cooling should be tabled for the moment For instance your point # 1 is most assuredly true, but we are not discussing putting the Propylene glycol (AKA Pink RV Antifreeze) anywhere near the "high-load, wet sleave aplications" of a desisel engine like you refer too. Your # 9 is also not necessarily pertinent either because in "most" marine diesel engines the Propylene glycol (AKA Pink RV Antifreeze) will ONLY touch the heat exchanger and the raw water impeller when we winterize our boats. Now I am not sure which is worse for the rubber of the impeller the Propylene glycol or ethylene glycol One last thing I have to comment on is # 4 the Environment. While it might be true that the EPA doesn't list ethylene glycol (Green Engine antifreeze) as listed marine polutants I find it very VERY hard to believe it doesn't affect the water MUCH MUCH worse than RV antifreezes are made from propylene glycol for the water we sail in . Most ethylene glycol automotive antifreezes are labeled as highly toxic. RV antifreezes are made from propylene glycol which is considered GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) by the U.S. Government. Propylene glycol is used in many consumable products such as ice cream, candy and even cosmetics. I hope you are not infering its ok to let that go into our Oceans, Bays and streams
One problem you don't differentiate between the Raw Water Circuit of our engines and the closed circuit "Fresh water" Circuit. I am pretty sure the questions being asked here are with regards to the " Raw Water Circuit" of our engines - I think it is VERY important that we differentiate between the Raw Water Circuit of our engines and the closed circuit "Fresh water" Circuit with ANY points we make. Please note this discussion is about "Winterizing" a boat so discussions about the "Fresh water" Circuit cooling should be tabled for the moment For instance your point # 1 is most assuredly true, but we are not discussing putting the Propylene glycol (AKA Pink RV Antifreeze) anywhere near the "high-load, wet sleave aplications" of a desisel engine like you refer too. Your # 9 is also not necessarily pertinent either because in "most" marine diesel engines the Propylene glycol (AKA Pink RV Antifreeze) will ONLY touch the heat exchanger and the raw water impeller when we winterize our boats. Now I am not sure which is worse for the rubber of the impeller the Propylene glycol or ethylene glycol One last thing I have to comment on is # 4 the Environment. While it might be true that the EPA doesn't list ethylene glycol (Green Engine antifreeze) as listed marine polutants I find it very VERY hard to believe it doesn't affect the water MUCH MUCH worse than RV antifreezes are made from propylene glycol for the water we sail in . Most ethylene glycol automotive antifreezes are labeled as highly toxic. RV antifreezes are made from propylene glycol which is considered GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) by the U.S. Government. Propylene glycol is used in many consumable products such as ice cream, candy and even cosmetics. I hope you are not infering its ok to let that go into our Oceans, Bays and streams
Antifreeze comments
Good comments. With Dexcool, the culprit in attacking o-ringings and seals is the not the glycol (EG or PG), but an inhibitor, 2-ethylhexanoic acid, unique to Decool (patented) and licensed varients. Other manufacturers have added small amounts of silicate, which seems to stop the attack. The GM problems are well known, and I understand they have changed elastomers to deal with it... which will not help the boat engine! Yes, PG and EG are very differnt in their toxicity to mammals vs fish. There is no Federal prohibition against placing it in the sewer (!), though many locallities have rules, because of COD and what ELSE people would dump with it (oil, paint, God knows what). I know that industrial water discharge permits through the EPA treat EG and PG exactly the same. Spills are not reportable (EG) until 500 pounds... With oil the criteria is any shean. Note that chocolate is poison to dogs, but delectable to people. I don't understand why, but those are facts. I wouldn't dump either - EG or PG, they are very recyclable - but after recovering as much as practical, a few teaspoons are not worth getting in a twist over. Our daily leaching of bottom paint is 100x more serious.
Good comments. With Dexcool, the culprit in attacking o-ringings and seals is the not the glycol (EG or PG), but an inhibitor, 2-ethylhexanoic acid, unique to Decool (patented) and licensed varients. Other manufacturers have added small amounts of silicate, which seems to stop the attack. The GM problems are well known, and I understand they have changed elastomers to deal with it... which will not help the boat engine! Yes, PG and EG are very differnt in their toxicity to mammals vs fish. There is no Federal prohibition against placing it in the sewer (!), though many locallities have rules, because of COD and what ELSE people would dump with it (oil, paint, God knows what). I know that industrial water discharge permits through the EPA treat EG and PG exactly the same. Spills are not reportable (EG) until 500 pounds... With oil the criteria is any shean. Note that chocolate is poison to dogs, but delectable to people. I don't understand why, but those are facts. I wouldn't dump either - EG or PG, they are very recyclable - but after recovering as much as practical, a few teaspoons are not worth getting in a twist over. Our daily leaching of bottom paint is 100x more serious.
Toxicty Link
Recycle your AF... Absolutly. But read the attached link. Camco's reference to aquatic toxicity is very bad science and is without scientific basis. I would think they would present fish/plant data; they do not because the story is not impressive. Nature is very complex. Most of the fish/plant toxicity comes from the additives, and they are not studied, except for aircraft de-icers!
Recycle your AF... Absolutly. But read the attached link. Camco's reference to aquatic toxicity is very bad science and is without scientific basis. I would think they would present fish/plant data; they do not because the story is not impressive. Nature is very complex. Most of the fish/plant toxicity comes from the additives, and they are not studied, except for aircraft de-icers!
some corrections
To prolong an already lengthy off-topic discussion, a couple of corrections: "I know that industrial water discharge permits through the EPA treat EG and PG exactly the same. Spills are not reportable (EG) until 500 pounds... With oil the criteria is any shean[sp}." EPA permits are tailored specifically to one source although there are generic guidelines. There are very definitive distinctions between glycol compounds in effluent permits. The reportable quantity requirements are just that - it doesn't mean it's okay to discharge 499 pounds or even 1. "Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment" The relative toxicity of these is HUGE - not the same.
To prolong an already lengthy off-topic discussion, a couple of corrections: "I know that industrial water discharge permits through the EPA treat EG and PG exactly the same. Spills are not reportable (EG) until 500 pounds... With oil the criteria is any shean[sp}." EPA permits are tailored specifically to one source although there are generic guidelines. There are very definitive distinctions between glycol compounds in effluent permits. The reportable quantity requirements are just that - it doesn't mean it's okay to discharge 499 pounds or even 1. "Propylene glycol (sometimes pink - RV AF) and ethylene glycol (green, red, yellow, pink, others) are THE SAME to the environment" The relative toxicity of these is HUGE - not the same.
I use the "purple" stuff...
...to winterize the engine. It has a lower freeze point, but is still non-toxic (better than the green stuff),
...to winterize the engine. It has a lower freeze point, but is still non-toxic (better than the green stuff),
I use the "purple" stuff...
...to winterize the engine. It has a lower freeze point, but is still non-toxic (better than the green stuff),
...to winterize the engine. It has a lower freeze point, but is still non-toxic (better than the green stuff),
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