Anti-fouling mistake?

[Ed Schenck]

I went to WM on Saturday and picked up supplies including the anti-fouling: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...splayErrorView . Now reading the directions it says to launch within 14 days of painting. But I thought an advantage of the ablatives was that they could be out of the water without losing effectiveness. Wrong again! This is the same paint that I used in Oct. 2008. It did quite well for two years in the water in Florida I thought. I was hoping not to have to paint every sprng. With this paint I will. So now I am looking at: http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/97854-...black-gal.html . What is in the formula that makes one lose effectiveness out of the water and another not?

 

[Jim Legere]

Ed,

I think what you really want is a co-polymer anti-fouling paint for multi-season, like Micron CSC. They are definitely more expensive. I suspect you could get away with just roughening up ablative paint with a Scotchbrite pad next season, providing you have enough coating thickness left. I'd be interested if anyone else has experience in this regard.

Both ablatives and copolymers wear away like a bar of soap. I know with copolymers, the copper does not get trapped in the binder - with conventional paints the matrix that holds the copper solidifies when the paint dries out of water, trapping the copper and rendering it useless. Hopefully with ablative paint it just skins over - any chemists on the forum?

 

[Ed Schenck]

But it is an ablative Jim. And the sale ended yesterday. The multi-season WM brand with anti-slime is now $60. a gallon more than I paid. And I bought two gallons at $110. each. And to think I used to buy Trinidad SR which is now $240. a gallon! Great paint that lasted but it is not an ablative. Lake Erie is just not that harsh to warrant the expense of something like Micron CSC.

Given the cost differences I might be ahead to just use one gallon for one coat. And then use the second gallon in 2012. My idea was to get two coats of a multi-season and maybe skip 2012 and 2013.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

There isn't much proprietary info missing from what you can find on the can Ed. Being a chemical engineer and a cheap one too, I looked into the formulas and components of a number of bottom paints to determine on what the manufacturer statement about efficacy is based and what happens when the paint dries.

If you want, I can go into the long story later but suffice it to say much of those claims on the labels are marketing as far as I could determine. Not that one anecdotal story is proof of anything but I've had our boat out of the water 12 months before splashing with 2 year old WM CPP or CCP (forgot which) cheap ablative and the bottom was as clean as it ever was after one season with new paint.

Like my yard manager says, bottom paint lasts as long as it stays on.

 

[Blitz]

Ed,

I think what you really want is a co-polymer anti-fouling paint for multi-season, like Micron CSC. They are definitely more expensive. I suspect you could get away with just roughening up ablative paint with a Scotchbrite pad next season, providing you have enough coating thickness left. I'd be interested if anyone else has experience in this regard.
quote]

For what it's worth, I asked an Interlux rep the same question a few years ago about what to do with my one year old Interlux Micron CSC for the in between years to get it ready for the next season. The rep told me the same as you guessed; use a Scotchbrite pad to rough it up (even said to do light wet sanding - but that isn't allowed in my area on the hard) and just repaint any area that might be a problem such as leading edges to the keel, bow or rudder. Also suggested that Imight want to to paint up the waterline just to make it look nice but should not be necessary for performance.

BTW: I have since switched to Interlux Micron Extra but haven't found much difference in performance in my area.

Hope this helps

 

[sailor420]

Ed,
I caught your post because I have been using the CCP for the last 9 years on our 420. In the first 2 years I did put a coat on every year. In the third year and for the next 2 I begain to thin it by 25% to keep it from building up. I saw no difference in performance. So I decided to stop doing the whole bottom and just touch up and do the water line. Again I found no difference in performance. Granted I do get some slim, but no barnicals which is understandable since it doesn't have a biocide, but I can live with that since we don't race and the price is right. The only thing I am concerned about is the new formulation of less copper. Pettit who makes the bottom paints for WM has told me that I should see no difference in the old and new product. We keep the boat in the water from April to Nov and we don't short haul. That is just our experience here. If we were someplace else I would probably do things differently.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Thanks guys. It seems that we have a consensus. That being that I can probably get at least two seasons with two coats. And maybe more. In Lake Erie we don't have barnacles, only zebra mussels. And they only get into nooks and crannies, not on the hull. Slime is the main thing and it power washes right off when they haul the boat. So I think I will stay with the CPP. Just not sure which way. Do two coats now and hope to skip a year or one now and one next year.

 

[Jim Legere]

Being a chemical engineer and a cheap one too, I looked into the formulas and components of a number of bottom paints to determine on what the manufacturer statement about efficacy is based and what happens when the paint dries...Not that one anecdotal story is proof of anything but I've had our boat out of the water 12 months before splashing with 2 year old WM CPP or CCP (forgot which) cheap ablative and the bottom was as clean as it ever was after one season with new paint.

Like my yard manager says, bottom paint lasts as long as it stays on.

I think Don is absolutely right. A lot of claims are made with the goal of selling expensive paint. The active ingredient in almost all antifouling paint is copper (since the banning of TBT). Some have antibiotics added for slime control. The issue is what kind of a matrix the copper is carried in. I have been told that with hard paints that use vinyl or epoxy as the binder, the copper can be trapped if the paint dries out. I have never used these - they are really for high speed or trailerable hulls. The old fashioned rosin based antifoulings are often called sloughing paints. I have gotten away with roughing them up with a Scotchbrite pad and water to get a second season. I don't believe all ablative paints are copolymer formulations - some are more like soft rosin paints. I think with copolymer paints, the copper and the carrier are chemically homogenous, hence multi season. I use cheap stuff - Bottomcote XXX or Fiberglass Bottomcote - and sand and then apply a thin coat every year. About every six to eight years I take it all off. Its dirty but not difficult. Folks at the marina always comment how clean the bottom of my boat is at haulout. I must be doing something right.

 

[Ed Schenck]

How much do you charge an hour Jim? I did the same thing for many years. I don't want to sand any longer. I worry about the toxicity. And it is a matter of time before the marinas are not going to permit it. I always used a vacuum sander and a ground cloth. But it still flies all over the place. I think that I will try one coat and the Scotchbrite pad next year. It would be different if I weren't in Lake Erie and coming out every six months. Thanks again for all the thought that went into your replies.

 

[Dalliance]

Ed
I sanded and put on three coats of Micron Extra three years ago. The first coat was red, the 2nd & 3rd dark blue with a 4th coat at the waterline and leading edges. After three full sailing seasons I still have no red visible, so it looks like I am going to get a fourth season out of it.
Another guy in the yard did the same thing that year with the same paint, except red over blue, and had to repaint last spring. The only thing we could identify that he did different was that when the boat was hauled out at the end of the year he directed the yard not to power wash the bottom in the belief that it would wash his paint off. He left the slime to dry out and it curled up and peeled off during the winter taking much of his expensive paint with it. My boat is power washed within minutes of being hauled. The power wash definately takes off some of the paint but apparently not as much as dried out slime will over the course of a Chicago winter.
One more comment - My bottom paint extends about three inches above the waterline and I have noticed that the color has faded significantly this last year where the bottom paint is not submerged. I can live with that.

 

[Ed Schenck]

But Jim, that would be a $600.+ paint job on my boat. Or $200. a year if I did as well as you have. I am going to use one $110. gallon and try to remember to report back in the fall. We also get power washed as soon as the boat comes over the wall. Cannot imagine leaving the slime on. But never knew that it would pull the paint off !

 

[captainpat]

I was using WM CCP for a while and, for the most part, was happy with the results and the pricing. They had a few types of bottom paint, all of which were/are produced by Interlux under the WM trademark and of a different formulation then the Interlux brand bottom paints. Of concern here is the WM ablative paint, of which there were three; two MULTI-SEASON ablatives - PCA and CCP, and a third SINGLE SEASON ablative that was clearly labeled as a SINGLE SEASON ABLATIVE - I don't remember the name of this third paint. The difference between PCA and CCP was basically that PCA added some sort of a biocide to the paint while CCP didn't have that additive. Then WM made some marketing changes with their bottom paint and further confused the issue by not being clear with the labeling. They basically eliminated one of the paints, the single season one, and replaced it with a new formulation of CCP. CURRENTLY, PCA is the only MULTI SEASON WM bottom paint while CCP was changed to a SINGLE SEASON paint. Unfortunately, many boaters still using CCP think it is a multi-season paint because the large print on the face of the label identifies it as an abalative - ONLY. The small print does inform the consumer that it is single season - BUT, you really have to search for it on the label. I feel that WM was negligent by not being more aggressive with informing the consumer about these changes.

BTW: Look at the Pettit Hydro-Coat. It has the same amount of Cuprous Oxide as PCA but is a water based multi season ablative at a decent price. WM sells it for $140.00: Defender for $116.00; I have seen it locally for $119.00. Can be applied over other ablatives.

 

[Blaise]

Ed,
Can you really paint your boat with two gallons? I put six on Midnight Sun.

 

[Bill1565]

We put one coat of Trinidad on the hull, and 3 coats on the waterline/keel leading edge and rudder leading edge with two gallons. Underlying tTinidad was in good shape, just roughed it up to get adhesion.
Ps I was at an environmental conference today. The had trouble with data bouys, ran a 6 way test, liked Micron 66 and Ultra better than enything else

 

[Bob Pullen HC-33 1981]

We put 2 gallons of CCP on every 3 yrs -- with about 3 oz's of powder fine ground cayenne pepper well-mixed into the paint. It last easily for the 3 years of being in very warm waters, sometimes leaving Seanorita for a month at a time tied to a dock in an even warmer estuary type brackish water lagoon where it seems everyone needs to get their hull scrubbed once a month. While ours barely even has a coat of slime on it.
Used Marpro hard gold once several years ago, with disastrous results. At port supply prices it is extremely cost effective.
Bob
S/V Seanorita
Yucatan

 

[Ed Schenck]

To answer Blaise' question. Yes, I can easily cover the boat with two gallons. Probably get a third coat from waterline down about three feet. Six coats would last the rest of my life on Lake Erie(OK, so I am very old). But how effective would years 2 through 10 be?

 

[Ed A]

Blaise,
i used two gallons of trinidad on mine, two years in the water, in tampa bay, cleaned it about every 5 weeks or so. but no real problems and a nice smooth bottom. 6 gallons would weigh how much?? most of us up here at Davis Island do about the same thing.