Anti boater radio ads paid for by the State

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Capn D

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Jun 4, 2004
46
Hunter 380 Clear Lake, TX
NY vs CA

Higgs.... a NY post about a west coast issue. Dude, your elected congresswomen has all but quoted Stalin. The CA governor is a RHINO ( for those in NY... "Republican in Name Only").
 
J

Jeff

Have to hear the ads

They're anti boater. Condescending and crisis geared. It's not about boater safety or hygene. We're already very good. We're already responsible. We're already environmentally conscience. There is no major problem that suddenly needs fixing. It's a licensing fee campaign. Life jackets are already mandatory for children. It's already illegal to dump. It's already illegal to pilot a vessel under the influence. In fact, it carries the same penalties as DUI. What will licensing fees do?
 
T

Tom S

I basically agree with Jeff

Is this really about cleaner water or life jackets or the alchohol related boating problems? There are already laws on the books for all these things. If you are DUI on a boat you'll get arrested (and lose your auto drivers licence privileges in most states). If you dump you can still get a fine. If your kid under a certain age doesn't have a Life Jacket you can get fined. How is licensing going to change that? Education yes, but licensing no. Does anybody know the total number of deaths by drownings across the whole USA for Auxiliary Sailboats is? I'll tell you 7 - yes only SEVEN. (2004 data) How does getting "licensed" change anything? Its not about Licensing or saving lives, etc. its about MONEY and control! Government and the general public see people with Boats as "yachties" and having discretionary cash. We are an easy target and outnumbered by the "knee-jerk feel-good bureaucrats" The only way to defend this is to organized, defend and fight back. Do you know how many in Kayaks/Canoes drowned? Over 100. Do you think they are going to make Kayakers get licences. Of course not . If they really cared about saving lives on the waterway and thought "licensing" was going to help then they should start with Kayakers If you are talking about mandatory Boaters Education training thats a different story and one that many states are phasing in, which I generally accept as not a bad thing. Come on everyone? This is legislation that is coming from a state that MANDATES stickers with notices on Bronze Thru-hulls that ingestion (of the Bronze through Hull !! ) could be cancer causing !! What kind of over the edge legislation is going on over there ! Jeff. I say Give 'em Hell.
 

abe

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Jan 2, 2007
736
- - channel islands
Higgs...totally wrong..conservatives don't like

him....and he may be registered republican, but everything he is doing is liberal. Thats why he has such high approval ratings here in the left coast. abe
 

abe

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Jan 2, 2007
736
- - channel islands
Registration and licensing is about more $$$$$$$$

..can't you see that? Its another way to tax the overtaxed people of CA. Nothing to do with education and cleaning up. Its not that complicated people. abe
 
T

Tom S

Little more data here for California

In the whole state of Calif (with a polulation of over 36 million people) . here was 43 drowning in 2004 (property Damage was 253 and injured people 439) Total property loses was $4 million dollars. (Thats the value of just one super yacht out of Newport RI sinking.) (page 34 out of 47) Looking at the official Data for California it says that there were 37 boating accidents where Alchohol was involved (page 38 out of 47) Remember this is with about 1 Million registered boats in the State of California Is this really an epidemic? (Actually, I think those numbers sound pretty good) It sounds like the "Knee-Jerk" politicians are skewing the truth completly. Pulling the wool over the voters eyes and coloring a picture of doom and gloom just to get control over every aspect of our lives (and our money) They know this $$ multi-million campaign will eventually lead to much bigger revenue for the States 'coffers'. And I can guarantee you that the monies collected for this will go into a general fund and not directly to boat related safety and activities. Thats how almost all states are. Link for Boating statistics below directly from USCG
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
There are many ways to make the tax burden

lower. 1. Stop repairing the roads 2. stop building new roads 3. stop building schools 4. stop repairing the existing schools 5. make all news roads privately maintained 6. elimanate the police departments 7. elimanate the fire departments 8. limit emergency room medical care to those who can pay cash up front 9. elimanate ambulance and EMT service 10. stop providing water and sewer service to all homes and businesses 11. stop paying state pensions. 12. stop hiring contractors to do new construction. 13. close all of the prisons. 14. close all of the mental hospitals 15. stop picking up dead aninals 16. stop picking up dead people 17. stop dredging harbors and channels 18. stop picking up litter If people want these things done they can just get up off their chairs and do the things that need doing. ;D
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,759
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The Hypocrisy Kills Me

Here's a few excerpts from the Portland Press herald from this past Sunday! Quote Press Herald: "Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 billion gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain. Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state." My Comment: Portland is perhaps one of the most liberal cities in the US besides Berkley CA and a few others. Where is the outrage? Where is the action instead of the loud voices of these folks telling others how to live like what lighbulbs I should be using in my house? Quote Press Herald: "When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay." "Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds." More of my comments: That's a very good question coming from a liberal senator from one of the most liberal states in the country. The "so called" environmentally friendly Democrats have been in total power in the state of Maine for over 25 years and they are asking why nothing has been done? Hmmm do they really care about the environment? Aparantly not! It is a total scam and a bunch of feel good BS to help a particular party look as if they do something but they really do nothing. The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) just last year while our Democratic state government decided to look the other way on 1.8 billion gallons of raw sewage! When will the feel good attacks on boaters and other small segment groups stop and real legislation be accomplished? The Dems and Repubs are NO different and it is no clearer than the hypocrisy witnessed here in Maine. We should be one of the cleanest states in the country if you base your facts on things like Repubs are anti-environment and the Dems are pro environment. Maine is also the state where the Green party was founded and we have many Greens in our state govt. These are folks who are way, way, way to the left of the left when it comes to governing, supposedly the environment and being anti-capatilist. One of them, a big wig, is from, of all places Portland! 1.8 billion gallons and liberal "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters who already complied with the laws far better than our own state! With the highest taxes in the country you'd think Maine would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but there is usually NO real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets". They attack these small segments of the population like the evil boaters because it is easy and looks good in campaigns to make themselves look good and it's usually done in a class warfare style! After all boaters are rich we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay, because we are evil and "stole" our money from the "poor". Disclaimer: I am not a democrat or a republican and think both parties are full of hypocrite fat cats.
 

Persy

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Dec 22, 2004
192
Hunter 42 Madisonville
nonsense

Ross, your comments are just nonsense. Sorry, but there is really no other way for one to reply to your drama. Suggesting we are overtaxed does not equate to asking for elimination of roads and police. By playing games like that, you drag the discussion down to a childish level. the FACTS are: Government is about 1/3 of our economy, that's not enough? Almost 50% of my income is taken by 1 branch of gov't of another. Boaters are not a measurable aspect of our water pollution problems. We can have roads & police without taxing boaters. Statistics already shown here prove that drinking and pollution by boaters are not even on the chart of serious problems. Government wastes more money than it spends on roads, police, etc. Middle & upper income Americans are already highly overtaxed. The California campaign is a red herring which allows politicians to target a small group and blame them for the problems in the state instead of making hard decisions that everyone would have to pay for. If they really want clean air & water they're going to have park their cars and spend billions on treatment plants. They're not willing to do that, so the find a target group (boaters, business, rich people, anyone but the masses) and attach blame to them. Come on, can anyone really not see this for what it is?~?!
 
Jun 2, 2004
3,648
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
Where is BOATUS on This?

Are they not our lobbying group? Those of you in Kalifornia contact your elected officials and tell them not only will you not vote for them if they do not fight this waste of money you will actively support whoever runs in opposition to them in the next race. It is amazing how few calls and letters (real letters, not the prewritten ones from lobbying groups) our government leaders get. It might feel good to whine and bitch here but it is not going to be very effectual. Go get them. Oh, and keep that nutty crap over there on that side of the country we have enough of our own out here.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Rick Guy and Mainesail ......

all make VERY valid points - thanks for your thoughful responses. As for Ross' comments ........ you really have to excuse him as he lives in the "Socialist Peoples Republic of Maryland" where 'everything' is (over) taxed, 'everything' is over-regulated, and nothing ever gets 'done'. <g> Ross, I'd appreciate it if you would please disclose to everyone on this bulletin board about how much sewage the city of Baltimore actively pumps into the Chesapeake? As another example of government 'concern' one only has to look at New Jersey with its newly initiated "boaters license' ... not funded, under-staffed, almost impossible to enroll in a 'course' .... but the state coffers 'will be filled' with the incredible price of such 'licensure'. Just another feel good example of 'government' using its citizens solely as prey species. sorry for the rant.
 
J

Jim

some good points but....

All in all this thread has been very good. Points well made on both sides of the issue. I guess what I objected to in Jeff's original post was the knee jerk political reaction. I will concede that he may have valid concerns, but I usually discard the arguments of posters that see a liberal wanting to take your money or a bible thumping conservative that seems too interested in other peoples sex lives hiding in every woodpile. Of course it is wise to have a healthy skepticism about both political parties but if you totaly buy in to the partisan nonsense that each party spews (conservative good, liberal bad, or liberal good, conservative bad)then you have been sold a bill of goods Brother.
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Thought I'd chime in...

Being a California boater, I have mixed feeling about this. One side of me says it is needed, the other side of me says I am already responsible and have proven it every time I go on a sail. A question I have to ask is "who is the target audience" for this campaign? Surely it can't be the marina housed boater. We are suppose to know the rules about drinking and boating, dumping of waste, and the use of PFDs. Our boats probably have stickers all over them regarding dumping and what can/cannot be dumped and where it can be dumped. How about the "recreational" boater who trailers their boats to the launch ramp? Granted not all trailer boater are irresponsible. But if law enforcement really wants to crack down on infractions, that is the place to start. Law enforcement needs to be at the launch ramp to inspect the boat/water craft before it even hits the water. Will this reduce the number of incidents? Maybe, but just the mere presence of law enforcement officials at the launch ramp could send a stern message. Use of PFDs is a no brainer depending on the boat size. Larger boats need only have them readily available. Smaller craft that can easily broach should have the PFDs on the person, no if, and, or but about it. I will not make my passengers wear a PFD if they are in the cockpit of my sailboat. If they move forward while underway and under not-so-ideal conditions, then I will require them to have on a PFD. On my boat, the drinking is done when we get back to the slip. On my boat, the use of the head is for emergencies only. All this is common sense and has been instilled in me over many years of boating. I cannot for the sake of reason conjure up any scheme by this state to impose more regulations than is needed. As a California boater, I need to see more tangible evidence that there is a campaign to place more of a burden on me to comply with rules that I already comply with, then I will stand up and speak against such an ordnance. Just my .02 worth.
 
T

Tom S

Rich H while I agree with you I want to clarify NJ

I happen to live in NJ (and keep my boat in CT). Actually what NJ is not really licensing but requiring Mandatory Boater education (which is not a bad thing). Which they are phasing in over a number of years (Persons born in 1969 or later must possess a Boating Safety Certificate by June 1, 2006. • Persons born in 1959 or later must possess a Boating Safety Certificate by June 1, 2007. • Persons born in 1949 or later must possess a Boating Safety Certificate by June 1, 2008. • All persons who wish to operate a power vessel must possess a Boating Safety Certificate by June 1, 2009.) This is the same courses that USCG Aux and USPS do. Some are just 1 day courses Actually this is very similar to CT rules for Boater Education. Of course the crazy boaters ;) from NY don't have any such requirement for any boater education The state really isn't administering this , nor are they actively registering or monitoring this. What they are just saying is that if you get pulled over they want to see the operator of the boat has passed a Boater education class. I think thats fair. This is FAR different than licensing. Actually NJ has had licensing requirement for boating "non-tidal" waters for years! The crazy thing is there is no requirement whatsoever! No test to Pass. No Nothing. The state of NJ just takes and $5 or $10 extra and marks your driver's license. Now this is ridiculous and just a way for the State of NJ to get more money out of us. Which is ok , but everyone should understand a very important aspect. That this money is not earmarked for anything that has to do with water activities
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
GuyH, I will make a direct reply to you

Yes there is waste in government. But no, you may not cherry pick your services for which you pay taxes. I sincerely doubt that any member of this forum pays enough tax money to pay for just one one the services that I listed in his own neighborhood. I know the quality of government service in Louisiana and the state would run a lot more smoothly if some government services were enhanced. Take an inventory of the direct benefits that you receive from government services. Things like traffic control signals, street lighting, road maintenance, public school,(have you looked into the cost of private school) and decide if you could provide for your self just these few services. A childish responce to these suggestions is the complete rejection of them without giving thought to the fact that all government services are needed by someone and having a screaming fit over a proposed effort before it has even been fleshed out.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
What if

We here in Louisiana have it pretty good I guess. Federal documentation is recognized without any state registration required. There is no sales tax on a used older boat. We certainly don't have any property tax on a rented slip. We are not required to have any kind of permits, or take any course to operate our boats. Federal requirements are of course enforced. I can see no evidence that we are any worse concerning safety, the environment or any other boating related matters than the most regulated of states. Far as I know, no one dumps raw sewage, pours the used engine oil in the bay, or flaunts other common sense things. I do believe that most of these other states requirements are in one way or another just another means for the state to get deeper into your pocket. What happens when I get boarded in the northeast, that requires a liscense to operate a boat, or proof of attending one class or another. Do I get a ticket, do I get a warning, do I get a free pass. More than likely out politicians are too busy figuring out new ways to steal the publics money. Just not enough money in the boating stuff for them to mess with. Our politicians are not interested in the little amounts of money us broke ass boaters could put into the system. They are too busy stealing the big bucks. Federal school grants, FEMA money, state pension funds. If there are not several million dollars to be put into some's pocket, they don't even bother.
 
D

Doug

I've been quiet

But Ross, how can you possibly feel you are getting your moneys worth. The news last night was talking about the Baltimore school board budget and 2 members making 7 figure incomes with 6 million in "additional payroll expense" after salary. This was approved by the general assembly. Nobody is minding the store! All Annapolis says is they need additional "revenue streams" because they aren't taking in enough. Will you approve a toll booth for boats across the bay to keep you safer? Nobody is saying government isn't needed, but the thinking that more and more regulation and taxation is always the answer needs to stop somewhere. I agree with Jeff, the campaign is to get public opinion positioned to approve a new tax in the near future instead of fixing any problem.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Withtongue firmly in cheek I sought to remind

everybody that without regard for where the tax funds come from somebody will be unhappy and without regard for the value of the service financed by those funds somebody else will think it a waste. As for those that excuse me for stating the truth would you feel better if you lived in a pay-as-you-go society. I remember toll roads, toll bridges, parking meters, emergency room treatment after someone was found to accept financial responsibility for the patient. Without that the victim was not even stabilized. And as for paying 50 percent of your earned income in some form of taxes I would be pleased if my income was that great. I once had a client who was complaining that they had to pay 70 percent unearned income tax that year. I told her she was breaking my heart because that rate applies to the 2nd million. All of us benefit far more from services we receive than we pay for in taxes. We just need to take an honest look and not focus on the occasional item that makes the news.
 
T

Tom S

Ross, You are missing something here

This discussion is not about services rendered by the government and its not . You are trying to spin the original issue of licensing boaters and making them out to be unworthy citizens to something about basic services that the government provides. This is not about that and you turned a boating subject with political overtones into a purely political one. No one is saying our tax dollars are not worthy of the basic neccesities that you listed. If a state wants to increase the services for the public than thats fine, but explain to me why they are picking on the boaters to fund services you mention that are being used by all people of that state. Whatever happened to "No Taxation without representation" If they need to increase revenue because they are adding services (but most likely wasteful of a lot) then they should increase the income tax or the sales tax or whatever. If they mandated by law that the funds they are taking from boaters goes directly back into waterways and boat recreation then not as many people would be against this. Now if you want some real facts. California is rife with inane and wasteful spending . "The State run UC system(Univ of Calif) has its own $62 million marketing budget to convince students to apply to the nine most prestigious campuses. Yet, the UC campuses are so full that they do not even have room to accept the tens of thousands of students they are attracting. In 2003, the UC system received approximately 100,000 applications. Just more than 50 percent, or 50,291 freshman students, were offered fall admission for the 2003-2004 school year. To make matters even worse, Assemblyman John Campbell (RIrvine) wrote in the Orange County Register (April 9, 2003) that "according to one analysis, the program spends at least $50,000 per student it actually enrolls." There is surely a better way to spend $62 million in education money than on a marketing program that has no purpose." http://www.cagw.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7237 I could point out hundred more examples Maybe if the state of california didn't spend money foolishly and wastefully then they'd have much more revenue than the boating license fees would bring in. We are all boaters and generally not wasteful and mostly frugal people. Advocating rampant revenue (TAX) increases without oversight and inspection is irresponsible.
 
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