Another sailor lost overboard
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lost overboard
it's going to be like seat belts; if idiots won't weard pfd's, the government will make them. the pity, in the mean time i have to pay insurance based on these bozos.
it's going to be like seat belts; if idiots won't weard pfd's, the government will make them. the pity, in the mean time i have to pay insurance based on these bozos.
mortyd, that bozos name was George.
He sailed our lake for 25 years in numerious boats from prindles to Catalina 25's. He was experienced, seasoned, agile, strong, and daring. He was not going to die on a couch waiting for good weather. The wind was 25 to 30 knots on Saturday. In our lake, every valley produces different wind speeds and direction. He was across the lake from me about 1/4 mile and about 300 to 400 yds from another sailor. His girl friend was not experienced. The boat was knocked down and the cockpit took on water. He popped the main sheet on his way out of the boat. That stood the boat up so that the girlfriend could stay aboard. She came around and the boat landed on shore. She was not an experienced sailor. But she was in the boat against the shore listening to him yell help and then nothing. She couldn't operate the boat. Then was on the boat for another 10 minutes before the other sailor came by and she pointed in the direction of George. My wife and I were about two minutes behind the other boat and we both looked frantically for another 15 minutes after calling in the Mayday. After the Rangers showed up, mywife and I when back to help the girlfriend back. George had just slung a 15 HP mariner outboard on the back of a friends boat an hour before. George is still missing. I don't like people calling him a bozo. Mortyd, If you are not wearing a pfd, you may be the next bozo. This guy was lean and fit. He was a bicycle rider and hiker. He had currently owned a prindle cat and a San Juan 21. The water temp was about 50 degrees. Sailing was strenuous that day. He was a good swimmer. Combine everything and it turned tragic. The two of us that were near him were probably 5 to 10 minutes too late. Be at peace mortyd,this should not affect your insurance rate on your boat. His boat was not damaged. No claim will be made. r.w.landau
He sailed our lake for 25 years in numerious boats from prindles to Catalina 25's. He was experienced, seasoned, agile, strong, and daring. He was not going to die on a couch waiting for good weather. The wind was 25 to 30 knots on Saturday. In our lake, every valley produces different wind speeds and direction. He was across the lake from me about 1/4 mile and about 300 to 400 yds from another sailor. His girl friend was not experienced. The boat was knocked down and the cockpit took on water. He popped the main sheet on his way out of the boat. That stood the boat up so that the girlfriend could stay aboard. She came around and the boat landed on shore. She was not an experienced sailor. But she was in the boat against the shore listening to him yell help and then nothing. She couldn't operate the boat. Then was on the boat for another 10 minutes before the other sailor came by and she pointed in the direction of George. My wife and I were about two minutes behind the other boat and we both looked frantically for another 15 minutes after calling in the Mayday. After the Rangers showed up, mywife and I when back to help the girlfriend back. George had just slung a 15 HP mariner outboard on the back of a friends boat an hour before. George is still missing. I don't like people calling him a bozo. Mortyd, If you are not wearing a pfd, you may be the next bozo. This guy was lean and fit. He was a bicycle rider and hiker. He had currently owned a prindle cat and a San Juan 21. The water temp was about 50 degrees. Sailing was strenuous that day. He was a good swimmer. Combine everything and it turned tragic. The two of us that were near him were probably 5 to 10 minutes too late. Be at peace mortyd,this should not affect your insurance rate on your boat. His boat was not damaged. No claim will be made. r.w.landau
Cold water
I think that most do not have any idea of what it is like to go into 50 degree water, with no wetsuit or survival gear. It absolutely takes your breath away, makes your muscles tighten up, and basically leaves you pretty helpless in a couple of minutes. Couple of years ago, I had to get into the water to get some nylon line from a crab trap off my prop. This was in Dec. and the water temp. was in the mid to low 50's. I was single handing at the time and I could only stay in the water a couple of minutes, and I was shaking so bad I couldn't accomplish anything. That was enough to make it difficult for me to get back into the boat, and staying in any longer would have made it impossible. Every time I got out it took a couple of hours to warm up enough to get in again. I do not consider myself an athlete, nor in particularly good shape, but I am a pretty good swimmer, and a certified diver, if that makes any difference. If you go into cold water, you are going to be totally helpless in a very few minutes. A PFD will keep you afloat and give you some chance of being rescued, but you will certainly need help in a very short time.
I think that most do not have any idea of what it is like to go into 50 degree water, with no wetsuit or survival gear. It absolutely takes your breath away, makes your muscles tighten up, and basically leaves you pretty helpless in a couple of minutes. Couple of years ago, I had to get into the water to get some nylon line from a crab trap off my prop. This was in Dec. and the water temp. was in the mid to low 50's. I was single handing at the time and I could only stay in the water a couple of minutes, and I was shaking so bad I couldn't accomplish anything. That was enough to make it difficult for me to get back into the boat, and staying in any longer would have made it impossible. Every time I got out it took a couple of hours to warm up enough to get in again. I do not consider myself an athlete, nor in particularly good shape, but I am a pretty good swimmer, and a certified diver, if that makes any difference. If you go into cold water, you are going to be totally helpless in a very few minutes. A PFD will keep you afloat and give you some chance of being rescued, but you will certainly need help in a very short time.
Mike thanks for the link.
I have to say that the chopper did a good job because the reporter is taping the segment about three miles away from the actual search area and operation base. The info was correct. r.w.landau
I have to say that the chopper did a good job because the reporter is taping the segment about three miles away from the actual search area and operation base. The info was correct. r.w.landau
Tough Year
Tough year, we lost a sailor locally a week or so ago who went to the bow and was swept off. He wasn't wearing a PFD - really a necessity when sailing in cold water. The only time I lost a man over, it was my strongest most athletic friend, he just got overconfident and slipped - at least we had just gotten a mooring line on and it was an easy rescue. I am sorry to hear of the loss. OC
Tough year, we lost a sailor locally a week or so ago who went to the bow and was swept off. He wasn't wearing a PFD - really a necessity when sailing in cold water. The only time I lost a man over, it was my strongest most athletic friend, he just got overconfident and slipped - at least we had just gotten a mooring line on and it was an easy rescue. I am sorry to hear of the loss. OC
lost overboard
rw landau, i'm sorry george paid with his life, but anybody who goes sailing wihtout a pfd, needless to say in bad weather, is a bozo and is helping to force legislation. i remember when my town, telluride, colorado, was among the first in the coutry with no-smoking laws and there was a hue and cry about taking away liberties from daring guys, like george, but now that so many lives are being saved by such laws, and seat belt laws, the liberty lobby for bozos seems to have quieted down. going to into the unkown in three leaky caravels was daring, sailing wihtout a pfd is stupid.
rw landau, i'm sorry george paid with his life, but anybody who goes sailing wihtout a pfd, needless to say in bad weather, is a bozo and is helping to force legislation. i remember when my town, telluride, colorado, was among the first in the coutry with no-smoking laws and there was a hue and cry about taking away liberties from daring guys, like george, but now that so many lives are being saved by such laws, and seat belt laws, the liberty lobby for bozos seems to have quieted down. going to into the unkown in three leaky caravels was daring, sailing wihtout a pfd is stupid.
mortyd??
I for one express my sympathies to George, his friends and family. My thanks to r.w.landau for trying to help in the situation because anyone could end up in that kind of situation. Cold water can kill whether a PFD is on or not. I wish too that certain people would have some kind of RESPECT for the DEAD and try not continue to call them disrespectful names. Sheeze!!
I for one express my sympathies to George, his friends and family. My thanks to r.w.landau for trying to help in the situation because anyone could end up in that kind of situation. Cold water can kill whether a PFD is on or not. I wish too that certain people would have some kind of RESPECT for the DEAD and try not continue to call them disrespectful names. Sheeze!!
Hey Morbid
Bilbo's right you know. I can't believe you are still trashing the guy that died. Show a little compasion if not respect for the dead and his friends and family who might see this thread.
Bilbo's right you know. I can't believe you are still trashing the guy that died. Show a little compasion if not respect for the dead and his friends and family who might see this thread.
pfd
hey, bilbo, how about respect for the living? i am a flight instructor and if i tell students about the idiotic things people have done to kill themselves and innocent passengers who do not undterstand the risks being taken with their lives the message doesn't get across. all kinds of silly points have been made like the sailor's athletic ability - how well did he swim unconscious or with a broken limb or in a life-or-death panic? - and none of that makes his decision any more intelligent. do we also have sympathy for drunk drivers or their victims? dumb is dumb, and no sugar coating will change that. the sooner sailors learn that getting on a boat without a pfd is an idiotic choice, the less chance we will have to find this legsilated, or dictated by the feds. capisci?
hey, bilbo, how about respect for the living? i am a flight instructor and if i tell students about the idiotic things people have done to kill themselves and innocent passengers who do not undterstand the risks being taken with their lives the message doesn't get across. all kinds of silly points have been made like the sailor's athletic ability - how well did he swim unconscious or with a broken limb or in a life-or-death panic? - and none of that makes his decision any more intelligent. do we also have sympathy for drunk drivers or their victims? dumb is dumb, and no sugar coating will change that. the sooner sailors learn that getting on a boat without a pfd is an idiotic choice, the less chance we will have to find this legsilated, or dictated by the feds. capisci?
mortyd
I take except to your tone. I assume the risk when I don't wear a PDF. I don't want to wear one unless I feel I need it. I respect your right to chose to wear one. You don't care if you look like a pansey sailing in flat water on a mild summer day when it 100 degrees with a PDF on out that is fine with me! I respect others choices!
I take except to your tone. I assume the risk when I don't wear a PDF. I don't want to wear one unless I feel I need it. I respect your right to chose to wear one. You don't care if you look like a pansey sailing in flat water on a mild summer day when it 100 degrees with a PDF on out that is fine with me! I respect others choices!
mortydy our subjective opinion is valid for you
but when you use it to judge others intelligence, etc; all you show (imo)is a lack of mental depth and understanding that others have a different, not inferior, mentality than you. Every time I go sailing I do not use a pfd. 80 % is in lakes, about 15 % off charleston, and the rest off fla west coast. My girlfriend never wears one either. WE CHOOSE to sail unemcumbered by those damn vest's, as is our right. I love to sip on whiskey and fly hulls with my buddie on our hobies, or stretch to clink toasts with with friends while the windows are in the water. We strive to be as careful as possible in our reckless pursuit of recreation... esp. when others are in the area, but, obviously there are no guarantees that we will be okay. You could live your life calculating the odds of a plethera of tragedies that afflict humanity, or you can choose to throw caution to the wind a bit (or a lot)...what none of us can do is know that we will make it through another day...you can eat right, not smoke, etc; and still get smashed by a hurtling mass of metal. Getting in your car (even with a seat belt)is FAR more dangerous than going sailing w/o a pfd. All it takes is one teenager to text at the wrong moment and your careful mentality is useless. All of us will die someday...the older I get, the more I see life as but a fleeting blur. I choose to live it in a fairly reckless manner towards my own safety because I enjoy the edge (and hate constricting pfds, though I hardly consider that on the edge). Though I have no desire to end this journey too soon; I have no desire live in fearful safety just to blow all my money in a nursing home swallowing pills and blowing baby food into depends either!
but when you use it to judge others intelligence, etc; all you show (imo)is a lack of mental depth and understanding that others have a different, not inferior, mentality than you. Every time I go sailing I do not use a pfd. 80 % is in lakes, about 15 % off charleston, and the rest off fla west coast. My girlfriend never wears one either. WE CHOOSE to sail unemcumbered by those damn vest's, as is our right. I love to sip on whiskey and fly hulls with my buddie on our hobies, or stretch to clink toasts with with friends while the windows are in the water. We strive to be as careful as possible in our reckless pursuit of recreation... esp. when others are in the area, but, obviously there are no guarantees that we will be okay. You could live your life calculating the odds of a plethera of tragedies that afflict humanity, or you can choose to throw caution to the wind a bit (or a lot)...what none of us can do is know that we will make it through another day...you can eat right, not smoke, etc; and still get smashed by a hurtling mass of metal. Getting in your car (even with a seat belt)is FAR more dangerous than going sailing w/o a pfd. All it takes is one teenager to text at the wrong moment and your careful mentality is useless. All of us will die someday...the older I get, the more I see life as but a fleeting blur. I choose to live it in a fairly reckless manner towards my own safety because I enjoy the edge (and hate constricting pfds, though I hardly consider that on the edge). Though I have no desire to end this journey too soon; I have no desire live in fearful safety just to blow all my money in a nursing home swallowing pills and blowing baby food into depends either!
Knee jerk response, Mortyd?
Exactly how is your insurance rate going to increase? It seems that it is always the case that the news accounts rarely fill in any pertinent details and it helps that rw has some more information but I still have some questions. How is it that the water is still only 50 degrees? Is that accurate? Our Lake is further north and basically in the same climate as western Pa. The depth of our lake exceeds 50 feet for the entire main body of the lake and 2 weekends ago, we had water temps in the 60's. While that is cold, it isn't cold enough to cause rapid hypothermia. Our son even went for a swim with the dog (she has black fur and it heats up unmercifully on a sunny day). I was going to say that he went in without a pfd (gasp) but I do recall that he wore one for the warmth. Morty, you may sail in a location where it is far more prudent to wear a pfd and I completely respect the opinions of those that wear a pfd because of the cold water or the large expanses of open or rough water, but a small inland lake is a far different matter in many people's view. I have a hard time imagining that an experienced swimmer and boatsman must always feel that it is imperative to wear a pfd at all times on a small body of water. I suppose that hypothermia could have caused this tragedy but I question it - even if the water was in the 50's. There must have been more to it. Regardless, it is sad but I wouldn't question the man's sensibility in this case until I knew more details.
Exactly how is your insurance rate going to increase? It seems that it is always the case that the news accounts rarely fill in any pertinent details and it helps that rw has some more information but I still have some questions. How is it that the water is still only 50 degrees? Is that accurate? Our Lake is further north and basically in the same climate as western Pa. The depth of our lake exceeds 50 feet for the entire main body of the lake and 2 weekends ago, we had water temps in the 60's. While that is cold, it isn't cold enough to cause rapid hypothermia. Our son even went for a swim with the dog (she has black fur and it heats up unmercifully on a sunny day). I was going to say that he went in without a pfd (gasp) but I do recall that he wore one for the warmth. Morty, you may sail in a location where it is far more prudent to wear a pfd and I completely respect the opinions of those that wear a pfd because of the cold water or the large expanses of open or rough water, but a small inland lake is a far different matter in many people's view. I have a hard time imagining that an experienced swimmer and boatsman must always feel that it is imperative to wear a pfd at all times on a small body of water. I suppose that hypothermia could have caused this tragedy but I question it - even if the water was in the 50's. There must have been more to it. Regardless, it is sad but I wouldn't question the man's sensibility in this case until I knew more details.
mortyd
Just because others do not agree with your point of view makes them an idiot? What gives you that right? In what way can you compare yourself and your conditions to those of someone many miles away, under totally different circumstances and make a judgment call? Where is it written that I cannot take whatever risks I wish to take? If I happen to disagree with something you say, or a mistake you make, does that give me the right to call you a fool? And just how in the hell can anything having to do with wearing a PFD, have any effect on your insurance rates?
Just because others do not agree with your point of view makes them an idiot? What gives you that right? In what way can you compare yourself and your conditions to those of someone many miles away, under totally different circumstances and make a judgment call? Where is it written that I cannot take whatever risks I wish to take? If I happen to disagree with something you say, or a mistake you make, does that give me the right to call you a fool? And just how in the hell can anything having to do with wearing a PFD, have any effect on your insurance rates?
Respect and truth
We should respect the dead and I am truly sorry for the family of any sailor who drowns. On the other hand going out without a PFD is incredibly disrespectful to your loved ones who must search for the body and deal with the trauma of your death. Sailing without a PFD is an act of selfishness. When I read in the paper that someone dies in a DUI car wreck I will show the article to my daughter and say the person driving was a fool. It is not meant to disrespect the dead but to use a "learning moment" to pass on one of life's simple truths. With today's PFDs there is no reason to go without one except for pure vanity. Sorry if that applies to any of you.
We should respect the dead and I am truly sorry for the family of any sailor who drowns. On the other hand going out without a PFD is incredibly disrespectful to your loved ones who must search for the body and deal with the trauma of your death. Sailing without a PFD is an act of selfishness. When I read in the paper that someone dies in a DUI car wreck I will show the article to my daughter and say the person driving was a fool. It is not meant to disrespect the dead but to use a "learning moment" to pass on one of life's simple truths. With today's PFDs there is no reason to go without one except for pure vanity. Sorry if that applies to any of you.
Mortyd
I have some respect for the living but I hope that with all due respect their opinions can change. A person who died pleading for help does not need to be called ANY names. Now, If you are trying to teach a person the need for safety while flying an aircraft and they aren't getting it, I'd consider terminating their education otherwise you may be passing on a person to fly who is a danger to others. "do we also have sympathy for drunk drivers or their victims? " I have sympathy for a person who has an illness like alcholism but if this disase is proven in the individual, they should not be allowed to get behind the wheel to kill somebody. I have no sympathy for the courts and law enforcement who don't care to stop them. Same goes for drunken boaters. Sympathy should be definately given for the victims. I will still say it: Cold water can kill whether a PFD is on or not. capisce??
I have some respect for the living but I hope that with all due respect their opinions can change. A person who died pleading for help does not need to be called ANY names. Now, If you are trying to teach a person the need for safety while flying an aircraft and they aren't getting it, I'd consider terminating their education otherwise you may be passing on a person to fly who is a danger to others. "do we also have sympathy for drunk drivers or their victims? " I have sympathy for a person who has an illness like alcholism but if this disase is proven in the individual, they should not be allowed to get behind the wheel to kill somebody. I have no sympathy for the courts and law enforcement who don't care to stop them. Same goes for drunken boaters. Sympathy should be definately given for the victims. I will still say it: Cold water can kill whether a PFD is on or not. capisce??
lost overboard
guys, let's try it this way. when a sailor without a pfd goes averboard it takes that much more effort - effort we all pay cash for and effort we may all need sometime - to find him and fish him out. have any one of you ever discussed this with people dedicated to rescing others? now why don't some of you explain how the waste of effort that occupies emergency folk takes away your freedom? as somebody says on another thread, people who sail without pfd's are doing humanity a service by narrowing the gene pool.
guys, let's try it this way. when a sailor without a pfd goes averboard it takes that much more effort - effort we all pay cash for and effort we may all need sometime - to find him and fish him out. have any one of you ever discussed this with people dedicated to rescing others? now why don't some of you explain how the waste of effort that occupies emergency folk takes away your freedom? as somebody says on another thread, people who sail without pfd's are doing humanity a service by narrowing the gene pool.
pfd
bilbo, be less concerned with idiotic pilots, aviation is very self-limiting, and it is very easy to teach a rash student respect for flying very quickly. hai capito?
bilbo, be less concerned with idiotic pilots, aviation is very self-limiting, and it is very easy to teach a rash student respect for flying very quickly. hai capito?
Mourn the loss 1st
He's a sailor and a human being. Mourn the loss 1st, then disect the causes. He may be a bozo (however it doesn't sound like it) but he still deserves a respectful moment, as does his family.
He's a sailor and a human being. Mourn the loss 1st, then disect the causes. He may be a bozo (however it doesn't sound like it) but he still deserves a respectful moment, as does his family.
pfd
look, i'm really not a hard-hearted bastard, but maybe some respect might have been showh the survivors by the dare-devil. no? we all have the right to throw our own lives away, but that doesn't exactly excuse what we might do to those for whom we are responsible.
look, i'm really not a hard-hearted bastard, but maybe some respect might have been showh the survivors by the dare-devil. no? we all have the right to throw our own lives away, but that doesn't exactly excuse what we might do to those for whom we are responsible.
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