Another sail destroyed

[sailaway78]

Received a call from some friends of mine this morning. Bringing their boat home from Pensacola, to New Orleans area. It is a 2004 Hunter 36, with a B&G rig and in mast furling. They got hit with a pretty vicious thunderstorm yesterday after noon. They were in the ICW, just east of Mobile Bay. The wind was on their beam, and 40+ knots according to their wind instruments. There was absolutely no manuvering room, and they could not furl the main. It ended up being shredded, and was ultimately cut loose with a knife. I will never tell anyone they should have done this, or should not have done that. Every situation is different. But my question for the forum is this. Is there a problem with the in mast roller furling mains, that when you get a lot of side pressure on them, they cannot be furled. My understanding is that this storm hit them so fast there was no warning, and no chance to reef. I know the exact spot where they were, and there is no way to turn into or from the wind, or manuver in any way in there. Is this a big negative for in mast furling?

 

[Rob2435]

What about using the main halyard and dropping the sail to the deck? Although, that may create other problems.

 

[Tim R.]

I have heard many stories of in mast furling failing at the worst possible moment. I am glad to have a conventional slab reef main with Harken batcars although it probably would not have come down even in those conditions without a downhaul around a winch. My single line reefing may have helped.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Trying to drop a furling main will just as easily cause the whole sail to balloon like a kite making a bad situation worse. Don't ask how I know...

Every mast furler I've ever seen or used requires heading INTO the wind before it can work; sometimes impractical as in the case above.

Not trying to start a war but these things are designed and intended to serve no other purpose than ease of use with no consideration to safety. They are a trade-off for those who want it the easy way.

 

[higgs]

Once any main gets hit from abeamwith gust like that, it won't drop or pull down.

 

[catsailor]

Is it just me...?

Get the laundry in early. Don't blame the gear. It's not like you can't see thunderstorms.

 

[seadaddler]

What

I don't see how in that situation any sail would have been any different.
Nick

 

[chp]

Is it just me...?

Get the laundry in early. Don't blame the gear. It's not like you can't see thunderstorms.

I have to agree. Pretty much any thunderstorm is going to pack a lot of wind in front of it. Its called a gust front. These winds can be as far as 10 miles ahead of the storm. Keep as eye and drop the canvas early. Its a lot cheaper.

 

[waternwaves]

that is what the barometer is for also. it is not just a decoration.

Those winds are typically forecast with large swings(drop) in the barometer. I have heard in florida that you can get a drop of 20 mbar in 4 hours. ( think the record with huricane Wilma was 100mbar drop in 24 hours), and it is always associated with nasty winds. My 2 trips to Florida I saw 10 mbar drop in 2 hours and the thunderstorms rolled right in. I think it is safe to say that there are tools to predict localized weather phenomenom, (the dial marker in the barometer) when the weather service has an ommission or insufficient detail. I pretty much assume when thunderstorms are predicted........someone is going to get 60 mph gusts, and a full main is not my friend then. WE are a little luckier out here. We get most of our suprises in a few localized convergence zones and for most of us we watch those climbiing and billowing cumulus as something pretty over Snohomish county.

Also, maybe I am just getting a little older, I leave myself 4 minutes to get the sail down, and 6 minutes to tie it up. Always seems to take about 10 minutes total to dose.

One question tho, I know sitting sidewase in a channel is never a good idea, but was there no way to point the boat into the wind with almost no forward ground speed, it seems that slowing down and turning and holding position would have helped during sail roll in. Same as we do with our jibs.

 

[onecoolair]

Re: What

Glad to hear that they otherwise made it out okay. Sounds like a coulda shoulda done this moment...have had plenty of those.
I have gotten into some simarliar situations...Once we had to motor in when the wind just died so we just pulled the boom to center line and I promply forgot to roll in the main. Right across from my marina is the fuel dock with very tight space to manuver. So I thought lets go in and top off the tank. I did not realize the main was still out till I stepped off boat at fuel dock. I looked at brother and asked how come you did not say anything, since he was up on the deck the whole time. You know the type doing that like a madonna strike pose thing. And his response was "Oh"?? I thought you meant to do that. If we had , had a sudden change in weather things could have gone bad fast.
My suggestions ,and a few questions if thats okay.
First never get yourself caught in a too narrow a channel with main out on a boat of this size.If you have to have any sail out use the jib. ..Was engine running? No room to manuver? Hmmm? How wide was channel ? My 356 will turn in its on length at hull speed. It can pull some serious "G-s"...In lighter air you can pull in the boom. Then
gradually ease out the out haul as you roll in the main.. You must keep the main from dragging on the spreaders. That is the ultimate key. Make sure the fulling line and out haullines are always set up and ready to go, "Thats the LAW!!
In heavier winds such as decribed you would have to move very fast and precise to pull this manuver. First put the weaker armed person on helm. Make sure they understand only responsibility is to steer the boat and to keep their head on straight and not freakout!!. No time to think just do!
Then as the helm is quickly turned hard over. You will only have a split second to get it right. Just as the main starts to flog away from the raked backed spreaders. Pull like hell!!! And pray! Hopefully you and your regular crew would have already gone over the what if scenarios in advance. If not pray harder!!.
Once...My year younger mocho womanizing brother and exercise freak almost got my main shredded once. He turned into a wimp when things got scarry. He can easily bench press my body weight. But for some reason he could not pull in the soon to be shredded flogging main fulling line.
We had some unexperenced guest first timers on a sailboat on board at the time.
No time to think just react....
Handed the helm over to the first person next to me and order them to hold this course no matter what! Left the helm and ran forward pushed him out of the way and grabbed the fulling line and sucked it in. Just as we hit whiteout conditions the wind went from the then sudden 35 to close to 50. Once the boat was in what I call trawler mode everyone was fine, we all just got very wet.
Sorry just had work a little story there. I hope this helps people think a bit and remember to play the what if this or that happens over in their heads and with their friends and crew so has to be better prepared for those unknown surprises. And remember sometimes its a good idea to listen to those voices in your head. When you hear them saying somethings not right here. We all need to pay better attention. It seems thats when I always get in trouble is when I don't listen!

 

[higgs]

Second guessing going on here. Fact is that if you cruise long enough you are going to get caught. Hindsight is always 20/20. Any tight spot you get in will always be accompanied by a "if only I had"... Been there done that and if you haven't then you need to get out and be more adventuresome.

 

[tcwaltz]

I live in Niceville,fl about 50 miles east of Pensacola. I can assure you that we have had some crazy storms here lately. While you can see them in the distance we have also had some that just crop up out of no where. Based on a few friends I know with in mast furled I'd never want one for the reason listed in this thread. I saw him return with a shredded sail from a similar situation

 

[Sail123]

that is what the barometer is for also. it is not just a decoration.

Those winds are typically forecast with large swings(drop) in the barometer. I have heard in florida that you can get a drop of 20 mbar in 4 hours. ( think the record with huricane Wilma was 100mbar drop in 24 hours), and it is always associated with nasty winds. My 2 trips to Florida I saw 10 mbar drop in 2 hours and the thunderstorms rolled right in. I think it is safe to say that there are tools to predict localized weather phenomenom, (the dial marker in the barometer) when the weather service has an ommission or insufficient detail. I pretty much assume when thunderstorms are predicted........someone is going to get 60 mph gusts, and a full main is not my friend then. WE are a little luckier out here. We get most of our suprises in a few localized convergence zones and for most of us we watch those climbiing and billowing cumulus as something pretty over Snohomish county.

Also, maybe I am just getting a little older, I leave myself 4 minutes to get the sail down, and 6 minutes to tie it up. Always seems to take about 10 minutes total to dose.

One question tho, I know sitting sidewase in a channel is never a good idea, but was there no way to point the boat into the wind with almost no forward ground speed, it seems that slowing down and turning and holding position would have helped during sail roll in. Same as we do with our jibs.

Brilliant post about a barometer. I will be installing a good one

 

[Ron20324]

Yeah, a friend's boat I was on : Gulf Star 49 went aground off the radio towers at Annapolis. Couldn't roll the main, so let the boom out to spill the wind. The main still would not furl. Tow boat and $675 later we were pulled of- then rolled the main.

 

[Benny17441]

I agree with Nick, I don't think the type of sail would not have made any difference in that situation. I myself have been very close to cutting up a stuck headsail and consider it a costly but effective maneuver in an emergency. I hate to second guess folks especially on something that I have been guilty myself for doing but perhaps someone can benefit. It is just not prudent to move under sail in narrow stretches in the ICW. I quit doing it, got tired of flapping sails, having to tack or jibe and handling sails while dealing with traffic. In long and wide streches I may let the headsail out but that is about it. I also try to avoid the ICW whenever possible but that is another topic.

 

[Ron McCoy]

I wasn't there either - so I'm speculating on their wx conditiions. However, I agree with those above who say don't blame the equipment. If you're in the ICW in tight spaces you really don't "sail", but mostly motor through the channel. I've lived in FL and watched thunderstorms develop - there's plenty of warning for the prudent sailor. A capable captain would have keep an constant eye on the wx and took appropriate action. The sail should have come down much earlier IMHO.

 

[rgranger]

Second guessing going on here...

I'm with higgs here. A week ago Friday we got hit (not sailing but at home) with this Derecho storm. No one forecasted it... 11 days later and there are still 4000 customers in my county alone, who are still waiting for the power to come back on. We went 7 days without power....so getting caught by a sudden storm happens to good people...

But maybe there is a lesson to be extracted from this story.... if you are in such a tight spaced that you can't maneuver under sail, maybe you should take down the sails and motor.

 

[SamLust]

If I don't have manouvering room to bring the main down I don't put it up. That includes sailing in on the river. I will occasilnaly sail in on my genoa only WITH the engine idiling, but never with the wind behind.. I can let fly and/or furl the genoa any time. As far as an early warning for thunder storms; my admiral is infalable at letting me know there is a slightly dark cloud 150 miles close. We generaly get lots of warning on Barnegat Bay. There was one time years ago when a wind storm kicked up seemingly out of nowhere. My engine died just as it kicked up as I exited the mouth of the river onto the bay. I got the hook out and rode it out in the bilge playing with the fuel system. Blech. 50 mph winds for about half an hour then nothing. No rain.

 

[Gunni]

This is a big concern with the B&R rig. Those radically back swept spreader/shrouds restrict your ability to let out the main, and prohibit recovering the main in the conditions encountered here. Not having a backstay allows Hunter to put nice roachy battened sails on, but there is no benefit when you have a roller furling, hollow-leach main. Knowing you have a very limited boom angle, and range of reefing options a prudent captain wouldn't allow this situation to develop. However, I have seen hapless sailors get a furling jam mid reef and end up slicing off a mainsail with a rigging knife in a squall. You can't drop a partially furled sail.

 

[robertsapp]

Some relevant data:

Having traveled that portion of the ICW many times, I can assure you the captain had no maneuvering room. The ICW east of Mobile is actually a canal (land cut), probably less than 50 yards wide, heading east-west. Those storms roared in from the NE, and to head into them, you would have hit the bank in less than two boat lengths. Much of the canal is lined with riprap, so hitting the bank would not have been pleasant.

Having said that, the storms started firing up shortly after midnight, and the entire area was under a severe thunderstorm warning all morning as the storm front marched to the SW. A prudent captain should have never entered the canal with a sail up under those conditions. If fact, I'm surprised he was even underway, as the storm produced continuous lightning, and you could hear it coming for hours due to the constant rolling thunder. A quick check of the VHF would have notified him of the danger. There are several large bays east of the canal that would have been a good place to anchor and ride out the passing storm front. It sounds like a case of "we have a schedule to adhere to" which overrode prudent boat handling.

Having said that, I fully acknowledge that I wasn't there, and don't know, and thus give the captain the benefit of the doubt. Thanks to the original poster for sharing this info, because I've learned from it, and will be more cautious in the future when entering that stretch of the ICW. We're headed that way in a couple of weeks, and again next month, as we have tickets to concerts at The Wharf Ampitheater, which is along that stretch of canal.

BTW, that same storm produced winds of over 60mph in our marina. We had sailed home under clear skies the afternoon before, and intended to head back out the next evening. We therefore left the dinghy with outboard attached in the water, something we never do, because it's a pain in the ass to haul it all on deck, especially for one night. Received a call from the marina about 11:30 the next morning informing me that our dinghy had been flipped, and our motor was underwater. I now know exactly how to restore a submerged four stroke. Lesson learned.