Another Roller Furling Question (222)

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Oct 18, 2011
36
Oday 222 Lake Nockamixon, PA
I realize this topic has been covered before, but I thought there might be some new options available for roller furling.

I own a 1984 222. From what I can see, it has the original Schaeffer furling system. (Raised with the Halyard) The reel has cracks and is not working very well. From what I understand, these were marginal for this size boat. I am also due for a new jib.

So, Here are some of my questions. I hope you can help.

1) What do you think are the best options? I sail on an inland lake in Pennslyvania. I am not a racer, but might play around some day with some Portstmouth class. I like the idea of taking the sail down, as I typically only sail on weekends - perhaps ten (10) outings per season.

2) Do I need to measure my forestay, or is it adequate to specify that I have a '222 with a Dwyer mast?

3) How do I specify the sail? Does the foil need to be sewn into the jib?

4) What size jib would be appropriate?

Thanks in advance,

Dan
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Dan, welcome to O'day land! I'm a fellow Nockamixon sailer, and I just got a 192 last year. If you haven't joined the Nockamixon Sail Club, consider it. We have a decent sized O'day fleet, and lots of fun cruising activities. We also have some open races including a poker run, and fun water canon wars. http://nockamixonsailclub.org/join_us Sorry for the shameless plug, but I'm also the O'day fleet captain this year... :) Oh, and unless you have a Flying Scott or a Thistle, it's probably better to join as a cruising member, not a racing member...

As for the roller furling and reefing, your best bet would probably be a Shaeffer SnapFurl with a 135% genoa. This would give you good light wind performance, and the sail could be reefed with the furler if the wind gets up. Ideally, you'd consider a sail cut for roller reefing. It will be a bit flatter, so as to maintain better shape when reefed. If it has a foam luff in the sail, the foam will help take up some of the camber as you reef, providing better shape. You can also consider having reinforcements sewn into the foot and leech of the sail at about 100-110%, and maybe again smaller at storm size. Think like the reinforcements in your main at the reef points. For a cruising boat on bigger water, I think the reinforcements might be a good idea, but for Nockamixon and mostly fair weather, I think the reinforcements might be overkill. You will also want to have some Sunbrella strips sewn on the leech and foot, so that when you roll up the sail, the Sunbrella will be exposed to the sun, and not your nice sail.

You could also consider a CDI furler. There are many folks at the lake that have a CDI, but Judy Blumhorst at www.judybsails.com recommends the SnapFurl, and runs it on her own Potter 19. Judy and I talked about it pretty extensively once. She is a very knowledgable sail dealer, who comes highly recommended, and she's well familiar with our sized trailer sailers.

So, that's a pretty expensive option, what with getting the SnapFurl and a sail made to your spec. But there is a less expensive option that I plan to use this season: you could run a hank on jib with a downhaul line. What you could do is take some 1/2" exterior PVC electrical conduit (the grey stuff) and cut a 2" piece. Cut a slot lengthwise on it, and round over the corners, so you can slip it over the forestay. Drill a hole in each end, and run a 3/16" line through the hole, up the PVC, and knot it through the other hole. Now, hank the jib on to the forestay, and clip your PVC between the top hank, and the next one down. You may want to clip a hank in the middle of the sail over both the line and the forestay. Now, run the 3/16" line to a single block, probably on the U bolt where the Shaeffer drum used to attach, and then back down along the lifeline stanchions. You could run it back as far as the cockpit, along the back of the cabin where the furling line used to cleat. I've been thinking about this, and I might rig it so that it comes back to the mast. Now, when you cast off the halyard, you can pull on your downhaul line, and pull the head of the jib right down to the deck. Cleat off the halyard and the downhaul, pull the sheet tight, and you've got your jib down quickly and easily, and it won't blow off the deck, or try to sail back up the forestay. It's certainly secure enough for you to motor in to your slip. I'm thinking of leading the downhaul to the mast, rather than the cockpit, because I will already be in the companionway uncleating the halyard at the mast, I would not then want to have to move back to the side of the cabin to work the downhaul. Of course, if you led your halyards aft, by all means keep the downhaul at the cockpit.

Benefits of a downhaul include lower cost for the jib, and a better setting jib. Also, the jib would be lighter without Sunbrella strips, so would set better in our breathy summer airs. Admittedly, a roller furler makes life easier at the dock, and makes getting ready to go out that much easier, but a hank on jib can still be stored on the forestay if you get a deck bag for it.

I think in specific answer to your other questions, you would get the Snapfurl CF500 and cut the foil to length http://www.furling.com/snapfurl.html

If you get the sail for the furler, work with your sailmaker so that they understand that you're using a furling system like the Snapfurl, and what other features you want. A good sailmaker should discuss your typical sailing conditions, etc. to get you a sail cut the way you need. Foils aren't sewn into the jib, rather they have a track in the foil that the luff slides up.

If you chose not to go with a furler, and wanted to just do a hank on, again you could talk to a specific sailmaker, or you could order one on line. Sailcare.com is a manufacturer of a lot of sails that get re-badged, and their prices are probably fair. Brad Linthicum of Linthicum Sails is over in NJ. http://www.linthicumsailmakers.com/ A friend of mine had Brad make sails for his ComPac 19. I had sails made for my Harpoon by Schurr Sails in Pensacola, and they worked with me well through some issues. It is nice to have a sailmaker close by to work out issues, but that's tough for us, other than Linthicum. And, of course, there are a multitude of lofts down in Annapolis, which isn't too far away.

But, honestly, getting a decent cruising sail cut for the boat will be fine up at Nock, and there isn't that much of a Portsmouth fleet, except for Craig's Santana, an F1 catamaran, and that Corsair trimaran that's just so fast during the ULDB race (Up the Lake, Down, and Back race)

See you out there!
Brian
 
Jan 24, 2005
4,881
Oday 222 Dighton, Ma.
If I'm reading you right, you're telling me that you are thinking of racing and you don't mind taking the sail down or handling it. You might be better off staying with the conventional Genoa of about 125% and snapping it on your fore stay. For one thing, your boat will point higher with the conventional rig than with a Gennie on a roller furler. I used a convention 125% Genoa with snaps, not piston hanks, but snaps for many years before I bought my furler.

I went out and bought an Autohelm autopilot and installed it on my boat years ago and this was really the best investment I ever made. The autopilot frees you up to do anything you choose to do from getting the sail up or down, to going down below to prepare coffee. I do some other things on my boat while it's sailing under autopilot that I shouldn't bring up lest I corrupt a new sailor with unfavorable habits.

Although I do have a CDI roller furler today on account of the fact that I'm a "Geezer" which is beside the point, I also have a whisker pole on board that I use quite a bit for downwind sailing. I doubt if I could set a whisker pole by myself without the aid of an autopilot.

Later on when you decide to buy a furler you can always convert your Gennie over if it's worth converting. This is what I did.

The main disadvantages of having a furler on my O'Day 222 was; 1. It's harder and takes longer to raise the mast without the Gin Pole and baby stays.

2. An O'Day 222 with a Z-Spar mast and internal halyards also has stays with swaged T-Bar fittings and a fore stay with this type of fitting should never have a furler attached to it. You would need to install a tang on your mast and change over the fore stay to toggle fittings with toggle straps. T-Bar fittings have been know to snap due to the side to side and back and forth movement of the fore stay when the sail is out.
A good roller reefing furler with the Gennie will run you about $1000. A good Autopilot will run somewhere between $4 or $500.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Thoughts on autopilots...

Well, not really autopilots, but tiller control devices that allow for hands-free sailing, at least for short periods of time...

I think I can do one better than Joe's (Trinkka) $4.00 autopilot. Oh, darn, maybe not. Well, it all depends on what you do for cleats. Anyway, there's the Cajun Tiller Tamer. http://www.blumhorst.com/potterpages/Photopoint/0005/cajun-tiller-tamer.htm Take a line from the sides of the tiller somewhere (aft corners of cockpit), wrap around the tiller maybe 3 times, and back off to the other side. Hence the cleats; even $4.00 black nylon clam cleats work fine. Keep the lines slack by pushing the wraps aft on the tiller. When you need the tiller held, push the wraps forwards until tight.

You might be able to string a bungee cord from side to side across the cockpit, near the end of the tiller. When you want the tiller held, pull the bungee from underneath the tiller (disengaged) up over the top of the tiller, so that it is now pushing down on the tiller, and provides friction (engaged). I have used this on my GP14, with SS bungee hooks on each end of the bungee, that hook into eye straps screwed into the side decks. Works quite well in light airs, or to set the rudder angle while I paddle her in to a dock with a canoe paddle. Not sure how well it will do in heavier winds...

Here is a more complicated rope and bungee tiller holder: http://home.roadrunner.com/~stevepics/Upgrades.html Scroll down to #11.

Stepping up the cost scale is the Davis Tiller Tamer. This device is a screw type friction device which grabs a rope bridle, which again runs to either side of the tiller. http://www.davisnet.com/marine/products/marine_product.asp?pnum=02205 I had one on my Harpoon that I sailed with for a season, and I do not like it. I'm constantly either loosening the knob to have minimal friction for steering, or wasting time tightening the knob back down to hold the tiller. I ditched the Tiller Tamer for this:

The WaveFront Marine TillerClutch: http://wavefrontmarine.com I love this thing. It allows for very reduced friction steering when disengaged, and when you need the tiller positively locked in position, just flip the lever, and it grips the steering bridle line. You can slightly pull up on the lever while it's engaged, and you can make subtle course corrections without fully disengaging the clutch. It's very quick and easy to use. It's an extremely well made piece of kit. I was so happy with it on the Harpoon, I have installed - but not used yet - one on the O'day.

Finally there's one I've seen, but never used. It's the canSail Tillerlock. http://www.cansail.com This thing works essentially similarly to the TillerClutch, but basically uses an eccentric cam on a lever to squeeze a steering bridle between two pieces of metal. I think this one would work just fine, and it's roughly half the cost of the TillerClutch.

I've had some discussions with the inventor of the TillerClutch, Pete Crawford. With any bridle based steering system, they will work best if the bridle is anchored off to the side of the tiller, but slightly behind the clutch system. Or essentially where the tiller clutch mechanism would touch the coaming if you put the tiller all the way over. This most closely matches the arc of the tiller, and will reduce the amount of slack in the system for extreme steering angles. However, the drawback is the bridle then encroaches on usable cockpit area. The tradeoff is to move the bridle farther aft. The more acute the angle of the bridle is, the more slack you will get in the bridle as you move the tiller farther off center. For sailing, and holding a straight line, you really shouldn't have to move the tiller very far off of centerline to hold a straight course. (If you do, your sails are not properly trimmed, are old and baggy, or perhaps the rake of the mast is not set properly. I'm thinking of lots of weather helm, but maybe your boat has undesirable lee helm... I digress...) I find that when I need to push the tiller over farther in order to heave to, for example, or push the tiller off to the side while anchored for lunch, there is a lot of slack in the bridle. Pete says this is why he recommends clam cleats for the bridle, so that you can readjust the bridle to account for this, or to account for line stretch through the day. I suspect the bridle through the fairlead plus bungee system I linked to above doesn't have this issue, provided the bungee can have enough uptake to keep tension on the bridle.

In any case, I have found with a properly balanced rig, I'm able to lock my tiller and move about the boat for several minutes at a time. Considering it only takes a few minutes to sail from one side of Nockamixon to the other, I don't feel the need for a motorized auto pilot. Though, if I were to sail on larger bodies of water on a regular basis, you can be sure I'd want one! For someone in New England like Joe, or on the Chesapeake Bay, I think a motorized auto pilot would be an excellent piece of kit.

Well, I think I've rambled on long enough for this post...

Brian




2. An O'Day 222 with a Z-Spar mast and internal halyards also has stays with swaged T-Bar fittings and a fore stay with this type of fitting should never have a furler attached to it. You would need to install a tang on your mast and change over the fore stay to toggle fittings with toggle straps. T-Bar fittings have been know to snap due to the side to side and back and forth movement of the fore stay when the sail is out.
A good roller reefing furler with the Gennie will run you about $1000. A good Autopilot will run somewhere between $4 or $500.
 
Jan 24, 2005
4,881
Oday 222 Dighton, Ma.
You bring up a good point Brian. An electronic autopilot could be over-kill depending on the size of the lake that you sail. Then a tiller tender on your boat might work for you guys. I sail Mount Hope Bay quite a bit and it's really not that large, probably about 5 or 6 miles wide. Dan may want to sail a large body of water some day.

Years ago I tried home made self steering involving surgical tube on one side of my tiller and a Gennie sheet tied to the other side of the tiller.
I mounted cheek blocks on my combings for the Gennie sheets. It only worked on certain tacks. I finally removed the cheek blocks about two years ago. I probably would have been better off mounting a tiller tender back then. Hey, you win a few, you lose a few.

If you ever sail any distances of about 15 miles for about six or seven hours at night, sitting at the tiller gets old after a while and you need a break if you're by yourself. This is where the electronic autopilot came in handy for me years ago. I still take an occasional day trip on week days down to Bristol RI in the summer from the Taunton River and it's nice to just be free to cook a meal or read a magazine while she's under the pilot between glances at on coming traffic or objects I don't want to run into.
 
Oct 18, 2011
36
Oday 222 Lake Nockamixon, PA
I sailed last year with a homemade tiller tamer. (Bungees) It worked okay, but I may upgrade. I sure like the looks of that tillerclutch, Brian!

Trinka: The problem you mention with the Z-spar...would that apply to a Dwyer mast, external halyards, as well?

I see some attractive packages online for 150% foresails with CDI furling systems. I would like to single-hand this season, and the roller furlings are attractive for staying close to the cockpit. Are the CDI systems a safe bet?

-Dan
 
Jan 24, 2005
4,881
Oday 222 Dighton, Ma.
I sailed last year with a homemade tiller tamer. (Bungees) It worked okay, but I may upgrade. I sure like the looks of that tillerclutch, Brian!

Trinka: The problem you mention with the Z-spar...would that apply to a Dwyer mast, external halyards, as well?

I see some attractive packages online for 150% foresails with CDI furling systems. I would like to single-hand this season, and the roller furlings are attractive for staying close to the cockpit. Are the CDI systems a safe bet?

-Dan
Dan,
If your mast is Dwyer, you're good to go. The Dwyer masts have stainless steel tangs for toggle type swaged fittings.

My Z-Spar mast has slots to accept T-Bar type fittings and I needed to install a Dwyer S.S. Tang on my mast just for my fore stay.

If you buy a CDI Roller Reefing Furler, you will need the FF-2. Rudy advised me to buy the furler without the ball bearings for the drum to turn on. He said that the large washer for the drum to turn on is good enough for this size furler for our boats. He said that ball bearings can corrode and bind up whereas the washer never fails.

Also, you may want to mount your drum control line on the combing somewhere near or withing reaching distance from the tiller as I did. So figure on getting enough drum control line to reach it. Otherwise if you were to buy the furler off Rudy, he would cut off enough line to reach the corner of the Starboard cabin side where the cleat is located.
If you intend to single hand your boat as I do, it would behoove you to mount a cleat to within easy reach. A control line cleat on the corner of the cabin wouldn't cut it for me.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Dan, I believe that you can tell the difference between Dwyer and Z-Spar by 2 things.

1) external halyards = Dwyer, internal halyards = Z-Spar
2) stainless steel hinged mast base, with two 1/4" stainless steel pins = Dwyer.

I could be wrong about this, but I'm sure that Rudy confirmed the SS hinge step with pins are from Dwyer.

Trinkka (Joe) can also weigh in.

Brian



I sailed last year with a homemade tiller tamer. (Bungees) It worked okay, but I may upgrade. I sure like the looks of that tillerclutch, Brian!

Trinka: The problem you mention with the Z-spar...would that apply to a Dwyer mast, external halyards, as well?

I see some attractive packages online for 150% foresails with CDI furling systems. I would like to single-hand this season, and the roller furlings are attractive for staying close to the cockpit. Are the CDI systems a safe bet?

-Dan
 
Oct 18, 2011
36
Oday 222 Lake Nockamixon, PA
Sounds right. I am certain that I have a Dwyer. It seems they use different spreader attachment, as well.

Wow, I must say I'm gettin' pretty excited about the season to come.

My plans are usually too big, but right now I'm hoping to replace:

1) hatch runners
2) windows
3) dueler

I'd also like new run rail, lifelines and led lights, but that might need to be another year.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Take a look at the most recent Good Old Boat magazine. There's an article on replacing lifelines with single braid Dyneema (like Amsteel Blue.) It's probably less expensive, and a lot easier to install yourself because you can splice it. Plus, you can customize the look of your boat with the orange line :D You might consider two layers of heat shrink tubing where the lines pass through the stanchions, although the GOB article doesn't mention having done this.

I've been messing around on the internets in a desultory manner, thinking about LED lighting for mine. It's hard to figure out when you don't know exactly what you've got as far as lights and replacement bulbs :doh: I think the stern light and steaming light on the mast will be easy, but it keeps looking like no one makes a drop in bulb replacement for the bicolor light on the bow. Part of that is the color quality of the LED, and part of it is manufacturers like Dr. LED say it won't have enough intensity to shine through the colored lens. I'm thinking it will require a new LED bi-color fixture, and they don't seem cheap! As for a masthead anchor light, I don't think I'd install one. I think I would just hoist a battery operated LED lantern with the main halyard, and a short line back to the backstay so it doesn't swing around much. I think it's better to have it maybe halfway up the mast than all the way at the top - much more noticeable for power boaters.

So, let be sure to let me know what you work out for yours.

Inside the cabin, I bought this battery operated LED light, from maybe Walmart: http://www.amazon.com/HANGING-LED-SHAPED-CAMPING-LIGHT/dp/B001CH5GQ8 It's pretty bright. I figure I'll velcro it to the headliner, but I don't know that I'll remove it much, because the velcro will pull the headliner. It might be better to have 2 or 3 smaller LED lights spread around. I guess I'll find out this season.

But, of course, I think about replacing my house wiring and the panel, so as to include a cigarette lighter socket to recharge iPods and speakers and stuff. And once I've done that, I start thinking thoughts about solar recharging... And who knows, maybe I'll decide I need a fan, too...

For right now, I just wanna get the boat fitted out and nice looking! Maybe I'll re-do electrical next year...

Brian


I'd also like new run rail, lifelines and led lights, but that might need to be another year.
 
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