Another one gets in trouble

  • Thread starter Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
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Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
No limit to stupidity.

There is no comparison to the number of accidents when we compare sailors to motorboaters, probably 100-1. First thing they mfg. 10-20 times the number of power boats to sailboats. But the real problem for most powerboats is their accidents happen MUCH faster.
 

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Buck Harrison

Hay, Steve, The Picture....

Is it, A new monument erected to "The Spirit of Powerboating"... ?? or, One of them new-fangled "Aid to Navigation" that the CG has been putting into place..?? or, A secret Anti-Terroist observation post, placed there under government contract by Sec. Ridge for $800million ... ??? or, Just a former Hunter owner who got tired of the failure of his rig, chainplates, hatches, etc., etc., and went over to the other (stinkpotter) side, so that he could enjoy the pleasure of powerboating............
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
No, actually it was a boater that...........

did not know how to read the channel marker in one of Gary W's quiz.
 
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Buck Harrison

Oh,

I did notice all those funny green thing on poles on the left side of the picture... but I just thought that they were some retailer's Christmas decorations, now that Halloween is over.
 
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JPF

Hey Steve, was that pic from Coyote Pt?

It looks just like one late this summer where I keep my boat at Coyote Point Marina in San Mateo, CA.
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

But Tom...

I'm not saying there aren't any idiot powerboaters...there are a LOT of 'em--and they do manage to put their boats on the rocks a lot, but usually in their own home waters...and usually small open boats--although a few 40'+ skippers manage to do it too. Otoh, you rarely hear about any stinkpotters who have to be rescued in open water 100-1,000 miles from shore...but lately it seems that every week there's another story of a sailboat that bit off more than the crew had the skills or knowledge to chew and had to be rescued at sea. And all too often the 30-50' sailboat they're taken off was their first boat. I've watched it change dramatically in just the last 10 years...it used to be that 99% of the e-mails I got from first-boat owners asking for help with toilet and odor problems were from stinkpotters, and the sailing sites I was on were mostly populated with people who'd sailed all their lives. Today, based on my e-mails and what I'm reading on sailing forums and other sites, I'd estimate that more than 50% of first-time 30'+ sailboat buyers are people who've never owned ANY boat before...or even crewed...but a lot of 'em are dreaming of moving aboard and "cutting the dock lines" within only a year or two. And for an ever-increasing number of 'em, turning that dream into reality is ending in disaster very quickly.
 
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Tom

Ok, Peggy...I get your point now

yes there is a bit more "daring-do" to sailors than the average motorboater, where they are a bit more "daring" than they should be "doing". But this one guy in this story did not go far from land, hell, he was in sight of land the whole time !....(now thats really nuts, couldn't he read a nav marker and think....hey somethings wrong.....we all get screwed up, but he went an awfully long way before a bell went off in his head....but I digress) Possibly with the advent of cheaper and cheaper electronics this allows the green sailor to "feel" more confident, when in fact the rules of sailing haven't changed. Be prepared for anything, things break and have an backup plan, know where you are all all times, follow the weather and have a plan, etc, etc Most people that get into these predicaments don't have a plan, let alone a plan if that plan goes south. I bet very few sailors would have ventured far offshore 10 years ago before there was GPS. I had a few times and its VERY eery not seeing land and only relying on the Compass & dead reckoning. I thought that having an RDF (Radio Directional finder) was *really* high tech stuff (albeit very inaccurate) and that was only 20 years ago. Back then you HAD to know your stuff. It wasn't only about sailing skills, it was about seamanship....shamefully we are losing that......maybe the comments on previous posts are correct, maybe we should have everyone pass a navigational test before they go out. Yes freedom and no legislation on the water is great. But should the tax payers have to pay for blantant stupidity?
 
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Buck Harrison

Tom,

In 1991 I crewed on a Mason 44 in the Carribbean 1500. We used GPS then, (11years ago), although there were a few hours during each 24hr period that fixes were lost because the entire # of satellites had not been placed in orbit. In 1986 (16 years ago) I sailed to Bermuda (from Norfolk) using "Sat-Nav" the polar orbiting satellite nav system that preceeded GPS. And from the 60s to now Loran had been available. While only useful to about 200 miles offshore, it provides excellent position location. (Thank the US Navy for all of these systems). Relatively inexpensive electronic nav. equip. ( like Loran) has been available for more than 25 years. And people were running their boat aground, etc. etc. then, as well as now....except now, everybody knows about it instantly, and analyzes it to death. (There was no HOW Forum 10 years ago). Does everyone operating a boat need to be liscensed?... I don't know.. but even if they were, it won't stop people from being foolish, ill-prepared, careless, etc..... and probably in the same numbers as now... it will just add another layer of expense and inconvience to our lives.....
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

But Buck...

I'm willing to bet that you've *never* relied SOLELY on electronics to navigate. And I'd also bet that you know how--and when--to heave to in a storm to ride it out safely instead of allowing your rig to be destroyed by trying to fight it out without the necessary knowledge or experience to know what to do...which few people are getting before they leave for exotic destinations. At least half the sailboat owners in my YC were afraid to take their boats out in winds over about 15 knots--and that was on an inland lake!
 
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Buck Harrison

Well, Peggy....

I've tried to do my best to not find my little a** out there in a storm... FORTUNATELY, the worse conditions I've ever been in were 35 kt. winds, running downwind.... and I don't ever want to be out there when its worse than that... as mentioned earlier (in another thread) tradewind sailing almost never involves storm conditions (as long as you stay away from hurricanes)... so, I'll take warm and sunny, thank you......And when I am sailing North of 25N, I wait for a nice weather window, and get off the ocean as quickly as I can (learned my lesson).... And, yes, I can, if necessary, navigate w/ compass, paper charts, DR, etc. and hope to get there; but, I certainly don't WANT to.... MANY excellent, experienced captains ran their ships/boats onto the rocks and reefs in the sextant era, and, despite their "saltiness" would have given anything for a magic little box that could have told them exactly where they were. But seriously, anyone who buys a boat and dreams of "sailing away" without getting some offshore experience, pretty much deserves what they are about to receive. And, come on, really, the folks in the YC didn't get antsy till it was blowing 20............did they?
 
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Clyde

Analyze it to death in this forum then at sea

I agree that legislating new laws to protect idiots at sea will be ineffective. There will always be people who will inevitable get themselves into trouble at sea and call the Coast Guard for help at the last possible moment, regardless if it puts others at risk. I believe this forum is to provide other sailor's opinion and to help new sailors. If some of us seem to analyze an issue to death, its because some of us are keenly aware that there are a lot of new sailors out there without a clue as to what seamanship is. It still bothers me that the guy sailed for seven hours oblivious to fact that he didn't know where he was or even what direction he was motoring. He motored until he nearly ran out of gas and daylight before he radioed for help. He risked the lives of the Coast Guard crews needlessly because of his stupidity. Here in the Northwest three US Coast Guard rescuers where lost five years ago saving a couple in a sailboat, it's something I hope I'll always remember whenever I'm in a situation where I might be over my head. Coast Guard, town grieve the loss of three crew members by Linda Keene Seattle Times staff reporter FORKS, Clallam County - Sandi Bosley cradled herself in her own arms yesterday, trying to understand why her husband - "my friend, my lover, my pal" - had died that morning in a Coast Guard rescue mission off the coast of La Push. "I still don't believe it is true," Bosley said of her husband's death and the capsizing of a Coast Guard rescue boat that also killed two other crewmen. "I can't believe he's not going to come wheeling down the road here, tear into the carport and walk inside." Her 36-year-old husband, Petty Officer 2nd Class David Bosley, was part of a four-person crew that was sent into a raging storm early yesterday morning to rescue a Bremerton couple from their sinking sailboat. The couple survived, but three Coast Guard crew members died and a fourth was injured. Petty Officer 3rd Class Matthew Schlimme, 24, of Whitewater, Mo., and Seaman Clinton Miniken, 22, of Snohomish, also died in the accident. Nineteen-year-old Seaman Apprentice Benjamin Wingo of Bremerton, the most junior member of the team, survived. He suffered only cuts and a broken nose. The crew was sent out at about 12:30 a.m. in a 44-foot motor lifeboat that is designed to operate in rough conditions and right itself when capsized. A second rescue boat also responded to the distress calls from the sailboat, which was operated by Kenneth Schlag, a Navy lieutenant assigned to the USS Carl Vincent, and his wife. The couple were sailing from California to Bremerton when high winds and waves pushed their boat, the Gale Runner, into a group of jagged rocks called The Needles near the mouth of the Quillayute River. The Schlags were plucked from the boat in a dramatic rescue by a Coast Guard helicopter. Both were treated for minor injuries and released from the Forks Community Hospital yesterday. One of the rescue boats crossed the river bar safely, but communication with the other was lost. A red distress flare was spotted at 12:55 a.m., and four more flares were seen 15 minutes later as the crew on the surviving rescue boat tried to locate their missing counterparts. Where, exactly, the boat capsized yesterday isn't clear yet. Another mystery is how the capsized boat and three crew members, including Wingo, wound up deep inside a cove on James Island, just off the coast. Early reports are that the boat got caught parallel to incoming waves and, in the trough of two waves, rolled three times, said Coast Guard Chief Kurt Looser. Wingo was released from the Forks hospital yesterday afternoon and returned to the Coast Guard station in La Push, called the Quillayute River Station. There, he talked with Rear Admiral J. David Spade, district commander for Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana. "This is truly a tragic day for the Coast Guard," said Spade, standing outside the small brick station, under a U.S. flag lowered to half-staff. He peered toward the ocean, where rocky James Island stood impassively amid the white waves. There, the 44-foot steel rescue boat was still pitched on its side awaiting an investigation that Spade said would begin today. "We know the boat rolled at least once - maybe three times," he said, noting that the boat righted itself each time, as it is designed to do. It was the first fatal capsizing for that type of rescue boat in its 35-year history. But the Coast Guard said yesterday it has been phasing such boats out of service and replacing them with faster, more stable aluminum boats. The crew members were wearing survival suits and were in communication with the second Coast Guard boat, Spade said. But they lost contact, and the second boat was unable to rescue members from the first. "I have told the coxswain of the second boat that he couldn't have done anything different," Spade said. Help also came from about 100 members of the Quileute Tribe, who live on the La Push Reservation and have formed a strong relationship with the Coast Guard. Early yesterday they fanned out on the beaches searching for survivors until the tribal police chief, Ken Lewis, was forced to order everybody off the beach because conditions were too dangerous. "The sea was just boiling," Lewis said. "It was raging. The last time I had seen it like this was when the Gambler went down . . . We had a massive search then." The Gambler, a 45-foot fishing boat, capsized in January 1990 off La Push, killing seven people. During yesterday's search, Lewis said the wind was so strong people couldn't hear each other talk. At least two people were injured on the shore during the search. It was the second boating accident in a week in the area. Rex Ward, 28, is still missing after his small skiff overturned in rough waters. To get another call within a week was tragic enough, Lewis said, "but to be told the Coast Guard rescue boat was lost, and the guardsmen were in the water, that was really a shock. Incomprehensible." That sentiment was heard throughout La Push yesterday as tribal members posted signs expressing their sorrow. "Our hearts, prayers and thoughts are with the Quillayute River Coast Guard families and friends," read a sign posted near a Coast Guard housing base. "It's a big tragedy and loss," said Quileute member Nancy Williams. "This community is so tight with the Coast Guard." At the town's Post Office, Postmaster Maureen McGarrett talks daily with many Coast Guard families. "This is hard on everyone," she said. "The Coast Guard families are so much a part of this community. So many wives volunteer at the schools, and the guys are always helping people." In the small timber town of Forks, just 15 winding miles from La Push, the tragedy was equally felt. At the hospital, clerk Jamie Schneider learned of one of the deaths last night. "Oh my God," she said when hearing the name of Petty Officer 3rd Class Schlimme. He was married to one of her friends, Christy Schlimme, who works at a Subway sandwich shop in Forks. "He was just wonderful, very sweet to everybody," Schneider said. "And they were just about to transfer back home." Schneider said the couple had been married several years and had no children. None of the guardsmen who died had childen. The Bosleys met in 1979 and had been "joined at the hip since then," said Sandi Bosley while sitting in her small Forks cottage. She slumped, looking at a picture of her husband. In it, he was holding a fish he had recently caught. He wasn't terribly social, she said, but he "did everything in the world for me. He was a wonderful human being. He was an awesome supportive individual." She shook her head, still disbelieving, her face hidden by long straight hair. Her comments swung between anger and grief, praising him for helping others and then angered that anyone was on the water in such difficult conditions. Then she recalled the events of the past day, when she was awakened by a friend who called, wondering if her husband was involved in the rescue mission. Concerned, she contacted the station. "I called and said, `This is Mrs. Bosley. Is my old man OK?' " Fair Winds. Clyde
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Antsy at 15+ in the slip at 20 :)

However, I was fortunate enough crew in few club races (when I wasn't pulling committe boat duty on my own boat) on a 355 Beneateau with a skipper who had genuine "blue water credentials"...nothing kept him in the slip. The day I was aboard in 35 gusting to 50 was a RIDE! (We also won, btw.) :) I was also fortunate enough to invited to sail down to Solomons from Annapolis for the last Hunter Rendevous...going almost due south with 20-25 out of the north. WHEE!! Hull speed all the way, without a single tack...we made it to Herrington Harbor in *4* hours! It's SO much more fun when the skipper actually knows how to sail. :)
 
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Tom

Clyde, obviously this a terrible loss

But do we really know that the skipper of the sailboat did something blantantly stupid. Being out on the water in a storm is not automatically a reason to say this skipper was acting irresponsible. What are the specific's, where was he coming from, was there a choice for what put him out on the water?...there are too many variable. I would hope that his seamanship and judgment was not terribly lacking considering he was a Navy lieutenant assigned to the USS Carl Vincent.
 
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress

Different incident...

Read the story behind this discussion. I've repeated the link to it below. No storm this time, only incredible stupidity.
 
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Clyde

A ship captain's judgement

The Coast Guard deaths occurred in February 1997. Winter is the worst possible time to sail offshore of the Columbia River bar. During the summer months the Coast Guard operates its high risk rescue school out on the Columbia River bar when the waves and seas are fairly safe. Whenever you see the video of a Coast Guard 44-foot motor lifeboat rolling over and practicing for a high risk rescue, its summer time training on the Columbia River bar. It doesn’t matter if you had the sailing skills of Dennis Conner, sailing offshore of the Columbia River bar in the winter is a very high risk venture with serious consequences. I believe the Navy Lt. thought he had enough sailing experience and sailing skills to sail up the Northwest coast in the winter time. In my opinion, he took an unnecessary risk which cost the lives of those three Coast Guard rescuers. Fair Winds. Clyde
 
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Clyde

Tom, it was a real shock when the 44 was lost.

Up until February 1997, no US Coast Guard 44-foot Motor Lifeboat crew had been lost before. The lost of the 44-foot Motor Lifeboat crew was a gut wrenching shock to many sailors in the Northwest. The 44-foot Motor Lifeboat would always be sent out to help a sailor in trouble. Motor Lifeboat (MLB 44363) was sent out along with another MLB to provide backup support for the Coast Guard helicopter extraction when a call was received from a sailboat in distress. If the helicopter couldn't extract the stranded couple from their disabled sailboat, the MLBs were going to have to do high risk water rescue. Luckily the helicopter had successfully rescued the stranded couple. MLB 44363 was lost trying to get to the sailboat. The second MLB immediately crossed the dangerous Quillayute River bar a third time to come to the aid of the stricken MLB. The second MLB was unsuccessful in locating MLB 44363. There is a monument in La Push, Washington dedicated to the brave crew of MLB 44363 who lost their lives that February night in 1997. The inscription on the plaque reads: "These poor plain men, dwellers upon the lonely shores, took their lives in their hands, and at the most imminent risk, crossed the most tumultuous sea..., and all for what? That others might live to see home and friends." Ironically the name of the Navy Lt.'s sailboat was called "Gale Runner". He should have waited until summer to move his sailboat from California to Washington instead of sailing up the Northwest coast in winter when there are gale warnings daily along the California, Oregon and Washington coastlines. Sometimes having too much confidence in your own sailing abilities and not respecting the sea can be as dangerous has having no sailing ability. Clink on the link to look at a web site dedicated to the US Coast Guard 44-ft MLBs. On the web site you can also see pictures of the monument in La Push, Washington dedicated to the lost crew of MLB 44363, clink on Quillayute River Disaster. Fair Winds. Clyde
 
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Clyde

Tom, the link is

For some reason the link is not showing up in the message. The link is: http://home.online.no/~lawford/xrl/xrl.htm Fair Winds. Clyde
 
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