http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/12282004_nw_searescue.html You know, it seems to me someone would catch on. Hunters rudders are not the weak link, they aren't even a part of the chain. They ought ot be be outlawed. If you search the records of pleasure class sailboat rescues by the USCG, it appears that Hunter are disproportionately represented. Didereaux
Another Hunter loses its rudder
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Troll? No - the point needs discussing.
No not a troll, I own a Cape Dory, but in arriving at that point I checked out THOROUGHLY , a Hunter, 2 Morgans, an Irwin, a Catalina, and a Contessa. $$$ ,or lack of them, killed the Contessa buy. I sailed each of these boats. Three of them I had the opportunity to inspect on slings. I like the Hunters lines, it's layout, and it's handling, however; it has the WORST and Weakest rudder outside of maybe something Wal-Mart might carry. So you see my 'rant' if you will is about the COMPANY and there persistence in not doing something about this defect. Or at the least acknowledging that it is NOT as designed a reliable moderate to heavy weather boat. Product loyalty is a phenomena that often times clouds reality. Do I make the same errors when discussing my CD, of course! But when winds settle down I fully agree and accept the flaws that it has. ALL boats have flaws, ALL boats are compromises. But ALL boats do NOT have a specific DEFECT that has been a continuing problem over the years like Hunter has with that damnable rudder. Why just last year(if memory serves) someone on a maiden run with a brand new Hunter 44 down near New Zealand or some such lost a rudder and the jury-rigged solutions they tried were published in one of the mags in Nov or Dec. SO you see, finally arriving at the other side of the bush, what I am trying to do is start a rational discussion on this ONE issue, with the wildly optimistic hope that enough will jump in that maybe some change can be affected. You see it's sort of as if the otp line Ferrari always lost it's right front wheel, but everything else remained superb and enough people wanted the car that they would overlook the possibility of dying from the ownership, and the manufacturer was perfectly willing to go along with that insanity. Didereaux
No not a troll, I own a Cape Dory, but in arriving at that point I checked out THOROUGHLY , a Hunter, 2 Morgans, an Irwin, a Catalina, and a Contessa. $$$ ,or lack of them, killed the Contessa buy. I sailed each of these boats. Three of them I had the opportunity to inspect on slings. I like the Hunters lines, it's layout, and it's handling, however; it has the WORST and Weakest rudder outside of maybe something Wal-Mart might carry. So you see my 'rant' if you will is about the COMPANY and there persistence in not doing something about this defect. Or at the least acknowledging that it is NOT as designed a reliable moderate to heavy weather boat. Product loyalty is a phenomena that often times clouds reality. Do I make the same errors when discussing my CD, of course! But when winds settle down I fully agree and accept the flaws that it has. ALL boats have flaws, ALL boats are compromises. But ALL boats do NOT have a specific DEFECT that has been a continuing problem over the years like Hunter has with that damnable rudder. Why just last year(if memory serves) someone on a maiden run with a brand new Hunter 44 down near New Zealand or some such lost a rudder and the jury-rigged solutions they tried were published in one of the mags in Nov or Dec. SO you see, finally arriving at the other side of the bush, what I am trying to do is start a rational discussion on this ONE issue, with the wildly optimistic hope that enough will jump in that maybe some change can be affected. You see it's sort of as if the otp line Ferrari always lost it's right front wheel, but everything else remained superb and enough people wanted the car that they would overlook the possibility of dying from the ownership, and the manufacturer was perfectly willing to go along with that insanity. Didereaux
How old are the Hunters which lost rudders?
There's a 1999 "Q&A with Jim Bohart" at the enclosed link that seems to imply that since the mid-1990s Hunter has changed to a new method of fabricating their rudders and rudder-posts: We make our rudders and rudderposts on site. The rudder skins are made with bi-axial stitched glass and vinylester resin. The tubes are made of a series of uni-directionals wrapped around a Mylar skinned balloon bolted into a mold and compressed with low pressure air till cured, (the Mylar wrap eases removal of the balloon). The post is then glassed into the rudder to a depth of 3/4s of the depth of the blade and all voids are filled with urethane foam. Destructive testing on a 40.5 rudder and compared to a 1/4" dia. 4" stainless post and ss webbed blade accomplished some interesting results. The blades were placed in a jig bolted to the floor and brought under strain with a winch connected through a 4" hole in the lower part of the blades, a load cell placed in line recorded the results: at around 6000psi the frp and stainless structure collapsed. At over 9000 psi the jig containing the composite structure collapsed, The composite structure survived the test. We've been using this system for the past 5 years and the rudders have proven to be lighter stronger and non-corrosive. We tested them in Charter fleets prior to introduction in the general market. Was this stimulated by rudder-loss incidents, or is it now the cause of same? I hope that the '1/4" dia. 4" stainless post' to which he compared was really a 1/4" wall-thickness tube of 4' diameter. If not, I could certainly see some failures <g>.
There's a 1999 "Q&A with Jim Bohart" at the enclosed link that seems to imply that since the mid-1990s Hunter has changed to a new method of fabricating their rudders and rudder-posts: We make our rudders and rudderposts on site. The rudder skins are made with bi-axial stitched glass and vinylester resin. The tubes are made of a series of uni-directionals wrapped around a Mylar skinned balloon bolted into a mold and compressed with low pressure air till cured, (the Mylar wrap eases removal of the balloon). The post is then glassed into the rudder to a depth of 3/4s of the depth of the blade and all voids are filled with urethane foam. Destructive testing on a 40.5 rudder and compared to a 1/4" dia. 4" stainless post and ss webbed blade accomplished some interesting results. The blades were placed in a jig bolted to the floor and brought under strain with a winch connected through a 4" hole in the lower part of the blades, a load cell placed in line recorded the results: at around 6000psi the frp and stainless structure collapsed. At over 9000 psi the jig containing the composite structure collapsed, The composite structure survived the test. We've been using this system for the past 5 years and the rudders have proven to be lighter stronger and non-corrosive. We tested them in Charter fleets prior to introduction in the general market. Was this stimulated by rudder-loss incidents, or is it now the cause of same? I hope that the '1/4" dia. 4" stainless post' to which he compared was really a 1/4" wall-thickness tube of 4' diameter. If not, I could certainly see some failures <g>.
Didereaux , your thread is lame.
You have other agendas on your plate. And your assumptions are lame too; condemning a product line with one or two failure examples will never win any debate, much less discredit one of the most successful products made in America. And my old rudder is still going. But we never know, do we?
You have other agendas on your plate. And your assumptions are lame too; condemning a product line with one or two failure examples will never win any debate, much less discredit one of the most successful products made in America. And my old rudder is still going. But we never know, do we?
Fred,
did arrow seems like just a troll. There doesn't seem to be historical statistical evidence that would indicate a significantly greater failure rate for Hunter rudders than other boats. I've heard of a lot more failures of Cal rudders. Maybe he should try to get Cal to change their design.
did arrow seems like just a troll. There doesn't seem to be historical statistical evidence that would indicate a significantly greater failure rate for Hunter rudders than other boats. I've heard of a lot more failures of Cal rudders. Maybe he should try to get Cal to change their design.
Oh Fred,
You better pray everytime you take your H34 out to sailing(no ofense intended.) I got same boat as yours. I like H34 for it's overall design and quality. However, when I saw the broken rudder of my H34, I knew it's not well design and made for such a important component. By the same token, I wouldn't say use spruce for H34 compression post is a good choice of material because mine don't have problem(SO FAR.) Would I recommend H34? Sure, just replace the original rudder then it's as good as any sailboat dare to compare in that price range.
You better pray everytime you take your H34 out to sailing(no ofense intended.) I got same boat as yours. I like H34 for it's overall design and quality. However, when I saw the broken rudder of my H34, I knew it's not well design and made for such a important component. By the same token, I wouldn't say use spruce for H34 compression post is a good choice of material because mine don't have problem(SO FAR.) Would I recommend H34? Sure, just replace the original rudder then it's as good as any sailboat dare to compare in that price range.
Rudder
The replacement rudder for the h34 is no better than the original (I know, I bought two). Al Walker gives a wholesale discount on your second repeat purchase. Anyone who contacts Foss for a new rudder should inquire about making the metal components more robust and follow the instructions about painting it white. ps: I wonder if the Texas Troll hates it when those Hunters fly by that full keel cow he owns?
The replacement rudder for the h34 is no better than the original (I know, I bought two). Al Walker gives a wholesale discount on your second repeat purchase. Anyone who contacts Foss for a new rudder should inquire about making the metal components more robust and follow the instructions about painting it white. ps: I wonder if the Texas Troll hates it when those Hunters fly by that full keel cow he owns?
Re. Jim Bohart explanation.
Al republished something that Jim once wrote about the Hunter rudders. But I have taken the plant tour and can tell you that his discussion is for a FEW rudders, not all. Hunter makes some for a few models and outsources the rest. I also think that I heard that Foss Foam is not the only provider. For purposes of this discussion we need to know which ones are failing.
Al republished something that Jim once wrote about the Hunter rudders. But I have taken the plant tour and can tell you that his discussion is for a FEW rudders, not all. Hunter makes some for a few models and outsources the rest. I also think that I heard that Foss Foam is not the only provider. For purposes of this discussion we need to know which ones are failing.
Other Didereaux posts.
Didereaux's other posts make for inteesting reading. RE: Novice advice @ http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/messages/26943.html Other posts by Didereaux: http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/search.html?q=Didereaux&Submit.x=14&Submit.y=12 Note that at [http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/messages/27045.html] Divereaux said "First thing is that you NEVER ask for advice from strangers, and you NEVER trust anything recommended nonymously via the internet. (regarding anything of importance). Given the source then one should follow his own advice and just ignore his comment. From his posts the fellow sounds very opinioniated and likes to preach to everybody.
Didereaux's other posts make for inteesting reading. RE: Novice advice @ http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/messages/26943.html Other posts by Didereaux: http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/search.html?q=Didereaux&Submit.x=14&Submit.y=12 Note that at [http://www.talkaboutboats.com/group/alt.sailing/messages/27045.html] Divereaux said "First thing is that you NEVER ask for advice from strangers, and you NEVER trust anything recommended nonymously via the internet. (regarding anything of importance). Given the source then one should follow his own advice and just ignore his comment. From his posts the fellow sounds very opinioniated and likes to preach to everybody.
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