Another El Nino winter-passage loss to Hawaii.....

[caguy]

Current and Archived Buoy Data

Here is one that I like to use. It has current buoy information (wave ht, swell hgt,wave length/ temperature, wind speed hi and lo),and archived data from any date you want. It will also graph the data for any particular day, week or month. I was using it last week to find a favorable time to visit the channel islands and went to last years data month by month. What I hadn't thought of was whether last year was an El Nino Year. Does anyone know when the last one occurred? I've included a couple of links one is to the weather information and the second is the specific bouy information for Santa Monica Bay. You can also access parede down information to your PDA if it is wireless. Let me know what you think or if there are better sites out there.http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/PZ/655.htmlhttp://www.wunderground.com/MAR/buoy/46025.htmlThanks, CaGuy

 

[Cap'n Ron]

Hunter "Passage" Abandon ship!

Hmmmmm, well I do not agree that you should have to baby-sit a rudder, it should be robust and practically indestructable, in fact in our case it served well.A series drogue or parachute 'sea anchor' should always be carried (the series drogue gets my vote) in any blue-water passage, and can be used to great advantage. Oil or sprinkling magic-dust on the waves has no effect, and in my experience is a myth.My best tactic in the baddies was to get the yacht as close to 50 degrees off the seas, lash the helm to leeward (you cannot tighten those little set screws tight enough believe me) and get all crew below under mattresses with heavy cans etc in bilges, and wait it out.I lost a Hunter "Passage" on a passage from Newport Beach to AlaWai five years ago. I had delivered many Hunters before this and had nothing against them, in fact thought them a cut above a Beenytoe or Jeanuea except for their thin hull.We went through several gales (this delivery was in early January, not the best time of year) and then a real storm which shook the keel loose from the stubby. She was only three years old but had been grounded several times while she was in charter service, and that storm with all the chaos and breaking waves was the last straw on that keel. I was up all that night checking for where the water was intruding with my headlamp when I saw the keel bolts moving slightly down in the bilge sump below the cabin sole.Well the pumps were not working, we had no power, but the bucket-chain-brigade was called into action and we could keep up, but being 948 nm from the islands I decided to set off the EPIRB.No, the decision did not come lightly, but we were not going anywhere and it was our 17th day at sea with many varied problems with this yacht, yes, we did have a sea anchor, and kept it at the ready with nylon gaskets attaching the heavy line onto the 1" rode run back to a main winch from the cleats on bow so we could adjust the angle of attack of the seas.One problem we'd had, if the wind got much close to 20 kts then the damn roller fuller was a bitch to roll up on the 110% furler jib. Many other problems as well, and the main salon was so vast (without handholds) I went airbourne across it and broke a rib in the storm.BTW a chain or cables 'catenary' will work if it is long enough, but a heavy nylon rode is of course the best.The windlass is NOT designed to hold heavy forces, towing or ANCHORING.Bitts, cleats, and mast can do for towing, and the anchor rode should always be snubbed with pelican-hook, prussik knot and nylon line when anchoring.WE were advised to shut off the EPIRB during the rescue, and told it best to make sure the yacht went down fast before leaving her as she would be a hazard to navigation.It is a simple task to criticise others from just reading a newspaper account of a catastrophe; this changed my thinking process and Hunters are not blue-water yachts.

 

[Franklin]

I agree....rudders need to be able to handle any

waves. Hunter needs to do a better job with them. I do believe the rudder on my 1996 376 is composit also and that worries me.

 

[BobW]

The rudderstock is a 'fuse' as well....

Would you rather the rudderstock breaks OR the force of the seas causes the rudderstock to tear a hole in the hull? Making the rudderstock stronger than the hull and rudder mounting mechanism can handle risks sinking the boat, whereas losing the rudder SHOULD be manageable in most situations. From the little we can glean out of the posted story, the Hunter was lost more because they weren't equipped (or experienced, possibly) to deal with losing the rudder.My comment isn't to suggest that the rudder be weak, just to caution boat owners not to just decide to beef up their rudder without considering whether doing so puts their boat at risk. I had some corrosion fixed last year right at the rudder/stock joint, and was planning on having a SS sleeve welded inside the existing stock, but was talked out of doing so by my surveyor for exactly that reason.Cap'n Ron, I assume that in your '50 degree' process, you're either heaving-to (in moderate storm) or using a sea anchor on a bridle off the bow (ala' the Pardeys)?Finally, I don't know that anyone here is criticizing - I think we're all trying to learn something. Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Ross]

BobW, I can't believe what I am reading.

You are suggesting that the boat builder willfully installed a rudder that would break in extreme conditions because they would not build the hull strong enough to support the rudder? That would fall somewhere in the realm of criminal negligence. There was a time when Mercury sold their Couger cars with tires rated not to exceed 80 mph and advertized the cars as capible of speeds in excess of 120. Tires failed cars were wrecked and people were killed and injured and Mercury was sued Big Time.

 

[BobW]

No, Ross, that's not what I'm saying....

I'm not suggesting that ANY boat builder is negligent or willfully designing poor boats. What I AM saying is this:You design a boat, I'll design the rudder.You design a fiberglass boat. Make it as strong as you like, within the constraints of sailability, livability, etc. Make your steering quadrant and the place where the rudder will enter the hull (I dunno the technical term for that one ) as robust as you can, within the constraints above.Now, I guarantee you that I can design a rudder and stock (or post or shaft or whatever the thingie that sticks up into the boat and connects to the steering quadrant is called) that, given enough force applied, absolutely WILL tear a hole in the bottom of your boat, and before my rudder breaks.OK, in phase 2 I'm gonna take back your $10+ million budget ;D and give you about $300,000 to build a boat that somebody is going to think he should sail to Hawaii (or, in the observed case, get his father-in-law to do it for him!). I bet you're having fun balancing the need for comfortable bunks and cavernous salons (without handholds, right, Cap'n Ron?) with standing rigging size and rudder securing. Cut any corners yet? Sorry, boat builders call them 'design considerations' if I recall. Wanna bet whether I can still design a rudder that will tear a hole in your boat without spending much money? Do you know the tensile strength of solid 1-1/4" dia hardened steel?And if you want to claim that there is some limit to the amount of force that seas can put on a rudder, what about when I just made an emergency jibe to miss that whale or semi-submerged shipping container... and missed it with everything but the rudder? Which would you rather have happen: break the rudder post, or tear a hole in the hull?So there's my point. This kind of trade-off is all over any boat. Finally, FWIW, I wasn't even talking about boat designers and builders at all... I was cautioning boat owners NOT to beef up their rudders beyond the designed capability of the boat to handle the loads generated by the rudder. Every boat has a limit, and you don't want to exceed it.Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Nice N Easy]

Very Interesting Exchange

There are a lot of very intersting posts on this thread. Some well thought out and some totally off the wall. Liam, your right that 14 foot seas are very uncomfortable, when close together.(Don't consider your reply one of the off the wall replies.) But I have to disagree that they are very dangerous as a broad general statement. I have been in close together, breaking 14 footers in my 28. I will admit to getting my brains beat out, and it was most definately uncomfortable, but I was never afraid that I was in danger. It is dangerous when the boat and/or the skipper is not up to the task. As for the rudder question, I have to agree with BobW in that there has to be a limit somewhere. If you make the rudder stock stronger, then the hull must be made stronger to support it. Where does it stop?? From what I have read, my belief is that the rudder was snapped off more as a result of what the crew did, or didn't do, than a design fault in the boat. But since I am not a naval architect, and I wasn't there, this is just my own opinion, and along with 5 bucks it will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Liam]

Expert advice

Back in the 70's when I was learning how to sail there was a guy on the dock named Rick. Rick knew everything there was to know about boats. He had read every book. He knew about every boat. He could point out every design deficiency. He knew every error that we ametuers made and told us at every opportunity.Oddly enough, Rick never took his Cal 24 out much. But he did live aboard.One day last year I was at the old marina and guess what? Rick was still there. Still living aboard and my guess was that he was still giving a lot of free expert advice.In my 30 or so years of sailing I have met an alarmingly large number of "Ricks". They are found in nearly every harbor... and on some websites.Peace.

 

[jimq26]

Bob tells the truth about rudders.

This has been a known fact since the late '60s.

 

[Jill]

I defense of Liam

In defense of Liam, 14'ers will have not problem bustin up a boat under the proper conditions. I had the opportunity to experience 12'+ cresting while counting 3 seconds peak to peak. Everyone on the boat was looking below to see if we had started taking on water. A split second off your timing can cause you to feel like your just went off a cliff and the slam at the bottom, not real good, couple more of them and we split wide open. Question, do all the Ocean racer make it back OK? It comes down to as much skill as you can muster and a lot of luck. You can get religious real fast out there. Never really thought 12' was that bad, never had them 3 seconds apart before.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Fairly academic argument

Actually, it's shear strength and not tensile strength that is of any import here and most rudders will shear LONG before the rudder stock breaks - bends maybe but not breaks. Considering only poorly designed rudders extend lower than the keel and the issue becomes more moot. To me, this discussion appears to be more a function of the length of winter some of us have had to survive away from sailing.

 

[Ross]

Maybe this is more of a design problem

than a strength of materials question. If the rudder is hung on a skeg or heaven forbid on the keel then the stress involved is shared by the skeg or the keel and the rudder is supported by at least two points and not just the stock.

 

[Franklin]

execuses execuses

You people will come up with any excuse in the book to blame it on the sailor and not the maker.Ross, yes, a traditional blue water boat has the rudder attached to the keel to make it stronger and you hear it all the time that production boats aren't blue water boats and one of their arguements is the rudder falling off. However, considering that Hunter Marine did a half assed recall, I'd say that's the smoking gun. All evidence points to a wear rudder. We are talking about 14' SWELLS (see definition below); not breaking or steep or short interval waves. If one pays $250,000 for a boat, it better well be able to handle that.Swell: Wind-generated waves that have traveled out of their source region, usually over a considerable distance. Swell waves exhibit a more regular and longer period with flatter crests than choppy, locally generated wind waves.Liam: You don't know jack about me so don't claim you do. I bet you are one of those people who sail twice a year and call that a year, but I don't go around saying it because I don't know you. It's obvious you don't know me but I bet I sail more in one year then you do in 5, maybe even 10. I've already been out on the water 14 days this year, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Franklin]

excuses excuses

You people will come up with any excuse in the book to blame it on the sailor and not the maker.Ross, yes, a traditional blue water boat has the rudder attached to the keel to make it stronger and you hear it all the time that production boats aren't blue water boats and one of their arguments is the rudder falling off. However, considering that Hunter Marine did a half assed recall, I'd say that's the smoking gun. All evidence points to a weak rudder. We are talking about 14' SWELLS (see definition below); not breaking or steep or short interval waves. If one pays $250,000 for a boat, it better well be able to handle that.Swell: Wind-generated waves that have traveled out of their source region, usually over a considerable distance. Swell waves exhibit a more regular and longer period with flatter crests than choppy, locally generated wind waves.Liam: You don't know jack about me so don't claim you do. I bet you are one of those people who sail twice a year and call that a year, but I don't go around saying it because I don't know you. It's obvious you don't know me but I bet I sail more in one year then you do in 5, maybe even 10. I've already been out on the water 14 days this year, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.N&N: Nobody cares about your opinion. We all know how you like to diss your crew.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Gee, Franklin

maybe it's about time you took another sailing trip.There have been a series of well thought out responses to this, with each contributor expressing their views.Dissing anyone's boat or manufacturer(s) makes little sense, for whatever reason.However, expressing opinions in a fair and balanced manner doesn't hurt and can help people understand the potentials for all sorts of things that happen.Stay with it.Just for grins & giggles, we were out last Saturday in 6 to 7 foot sells at 12 to 13 seconds and it was pleasant with a 12 to 17 knot breeze and accompanying wind waves.We'd been out the Gate many times before in higher winds and swells which were uncomfortable, and other days when the same conditions created exhilarating sailing.Many times the different tack directions made one much more favorable over the other, since the wind waves and the wind itself were in different directions than the swells.The dolphin and the seals were great to come by and visit with us.We weren't there. The observations are still valid without finger pointing.

 

[Clyde]

Composite Material Fracture

In 2005 Hunter responded to a growing concern on the amount of rudder failure on their sailboats in the 450, 456, 460, and 46 models; they had 16 reported failures in 2005. Up to this point, Hunter was emphasizing that their new composite rudder and composite rudder shaft was safer then their competitor's use of stainless steel shaft. Hunter concluded that the composite material failure was due to operator error. They stated that the composite material failure was due to damage occurring when the rudder struck an object causing the material to fracture. Hunter offer to sell at a reduced price a stainless steel rudder shaft to owners, but the owners had to pay for the installation. Hunter published this in their Safety Tune-up newsletter (check the link). Hunter designed an emergency rudder soon after. They offered to sell the emergency rudder system to the owners of the 450, 456, 460, and 46 models at a reasonable cost. On Hunter's website, they use to list the composite rudder and composite rudder shaft as the Hunter Advantage. If you look at their website, they removed the reference to the composite rudder and composite rudder shaft, but it seems some of their distributors forget to remove the reference (check the link).If you look that the specification for the new Hunters on their website, they all come with a stainless steel rudder shaft instead of a composite one. If you check the boating advertisements, some of the brokers are selling the old Hunters with the composite rudder shafts. It appears that the composite material experiment by Hunter was a failure. Fair Winds,ClydeRudder Failurehttp://www.huntermarine.com/Images/ProductNot/Hunter2005TuneUp.pdfHunter Backup Rudderhttp://www.huntermarine.com/Images/ProductNot/RudderLetter0405.pdfHunter 49 Stainless Steel Shafthttp://www.huntermarine.com/Models/49/49Equip.htmlComposite Rudder Shafthttp://www.yachtworld.com/specialtyyachtsales/specialtyyachtsales_7.html

 

[Don12364]

Bob?Ross

After the 1974 Fastnet storm, which claimed several lives, I saw the rudder stock of the 30' half tonner "Grimalkin". It was a spade rudder with a 2" diameter solid stainless 316. It was bent 30° just where it exited the hull and this made the rudder continually steer the boat in circles as the rudder would only move through a few degrees.The crew were evacuated by helicopter with one life lost and the boat was abandoned and rescued later.I was VERY interested as I owned a sister ship!Bob you will need to try a thicker piece of steel for your challenge.Franklin - The 376 rudder stock is 6" diameter composite at the lower bearing and approx 2 1/2" dia at the top bearing (this upper dimension from memory). Problem with composites is that when flexed, one wall is in tension - which it likes - and the other is in compression where the fibres begin to bend within the laminate. Do this several thousand times and these fibres break free of the resin and eventually the whole thing tears away.Pete Goss now knows with "Philips" his carbon catamaran designed to race round the world. One hull just broke off ahead of the main beam and it separated from the other hull. The boat was repaired but broke up when attempting to prove it was fit to go on the race.

 

[Ken "Dancin Bear"]

Should have had an emergency rudder on board.

I have only sailed to Hawaii once. 2004 Vic Maui race. @ 2600 NM.All boats were inspected by race committee safety guys.We had to have an emergency rudder and demonstrate the use of this device before being allowed to depart.There was a vast list of items inspected and altered. All for safety of the crew and then the boat.The boat was a Valiant 40. A true blue water boat with skeg rudder.The boat means a lot but the crew has to be good boy scouts and " Be Prepared"Only after all items passed inspection were we allowed to race.I don't know much, but I have seen a lot of boats that I would not venture out on the big blue.I enjoy reading this site and this was a great thread.I don't know Franklin either but he needs to be nice or be quiet.

 

[richk]

in response to Henk

In response to Henk Henk asked: In your isobar plot (reply #5) what do the red dotted lines represent? Some kind of 500 mbar plot?Answer: The plot shows surface pressure contours and 500mb – 1000mb thickness contours. Thickness is represented by the red dotted lines. The values along these contours indicate the vertical distance between the height of the 500mb and 1000mb “surfaces”, in decameters. These lines are useful in analyzing regions of vertical shear.Henk asked: In your wave plots (reply #19) in what way are the bold blue arrows different from the red ones?Answer: I have no idea. I had the same question and have probed the web site (below) for online answers. No joy. When I was performing these analyses a few decades ago, there was only black and white fax so the question didn’t arise. If I have the time, I may query the source, since I know some folk associated with the organization.Henk asked: Finally, please provide the website urls where one can find these historical data. I usually use the FNMOC site for pressure/wind/wave/temp forecasts but don't recall seeing historical data beyond a few days back; at least not for the general public.Answer: 1. Historic data (valuable resource): http://nomads.ncdc.noaa.gov:9091/ncep/NCEP2. Wave plots (pseudo-real time): http://www.opc.ncep.noaa.gov/Tangentially…for those curious about dispersion (why we see swell with no wind wave)…here’s an extremely short excerpt from section 3.3.2 of the WORLD METEOROLOGICAL ORGANIZATION “GUIDE TO WAVE ANALYSIS AND FORECASTING” WMO-No. 702 1998 (second edition)” “…A further reduction needs to be applied to account for dispersion. It has been explained how long waves and their energy travel faster than short waves and theirenergy. The wave field leaving a generating area has a mixture of frequencies. At a large distance from the generating fetch, the waves with low frequencies (long waves) will arrive first, followed by waves of increasing frequency. …”for further explanation I suggest reading the guide. It’s online.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Thanks, Barometer!

That first website is indeed impressive (but alas also quite intimidating because of its lack of any kind of intuitive GUI).Flying Dutchman