I am having battery problems on a N2U Hunter 340 (New to Us). Volt meter tells me that the charger is putting 12.5 volts to the batteries but there isn't enough ooph to crank the engine after a day on the hook. Lights are still bright but there isn't enough CCA to spin the diesel. I replaced one battery in a must go now situation. I know I know all or none. I suspect that the old battery is now sucking the life out the good battery and at the same time taking all the charge that charger is giving. The switch does not isolate the bad battery. I thought that if I put the switch on #1 only (whilst #2 is the bad battery) that I could put a jumper on #1 and it would fire off. WRONG. I still had to use the decompression release to get fired up. And also-could this be the reason that my CD player just stopped working and won't come back on? Is this all related to one bad battery or am I having a run of bad luck (entirely possible since the CD player in my truck went AWAL too!) Simple Answers Please! I don't want to re-wire my whole boat, add 3 switches, and inverter and a microchip to automatically charge my batteries. I just want a simple 1/2/both/off that does just that! I think I can remember to switch from both to 1 or 2 when I go to bed at anchor and I'll leave the charger on when I am at the dock. Can you tell I am hoping that the only problem is one shorted battery!
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Bad battery or bad charger?
Andy It's hard to tell why you have the problem from what you described but to keep it simple, unless the battery(ies) are already fully charged, the charger should be running at close to 14 v, not 12.5 which makes me think you need to check the charger. Any properly wired 1-2-both switch should isolate both batteries unless on the BOTH setting. Don
Andy It's hard to tell why you have the problem from what you described but to keep it simple, unless the battery(ies) are already fully charged, the charger should be running at close to 14 v, not 12.5 which makes me think you need to check the charger. Any properly wired 1-2-both switch should isolate both batteries unless on the BOTH setting. Don
You should be able to isolate the charger
to check it. Turn your switch to Off, turn off the AC input to the charger, disconnect the black output wire(s) from the terminal block on the charger (or remove the in-line fuses on the red wires, if they are handy), then turn on the charger and measure across the + & - output terminals on the charger. (the reason you have to isolate the output from the batteries and loads is that they can affect the charger output voltage). Assuming you have a 'dumb' single-stage charger, you should read between, well, let's say 12.8 and 14.5 volts. The reason I sound indefinite is that a battery charger has 4 jobs to do and each job takes a different voltage/current mix. OK, if you read something outside those limits, either your charger needs adjustment or must be replaced. Please consult the charger Owner's Manual which was thoughtfully provided to you by the PO. If you don't have it, let us know the make and model and somebody will have specific information on your charger. If the charger output is good, then you have a bad battery. The 12.5v output could indicate that the bad battery is indeed sucking all the amperage off the charger. It could have a shorted cell and be gassing at 12.5 volts, which would consume all the current the charger can provide. One way to spot a shorted cell is to pull the water caps off and see if 1 cell isn't bubbling when the battery is taking a heavy charge. If your charger is bad, consider paying the extra money for a 'smart' 3-stage charger. Your new batteries will thank you! BTW, the 4 jobs of the charger are: bulk, absorbtion, float and equalize charge. Also, here is my favorite battery information link. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
to check it. Turn your switch to Off, turn off the AC input to the charger, disconnect the black output wire(s) from the terminal block on the charger (or remove the in-line fuses on the red wires, if they are handy), then turn on the charger and measure across the + & - output terminals on the charger. (the reason you have to isolate the output from the batteries and loads is that they can affect the charger output voltage). Assuming you have a 'dumb' single-stage charger, you should read between, well, let's say 12.8 and 14.5 volts. The reason I sound indefinite is that a battery charger has 4 jobs to do and each job takes a different voltage/current mix. OK, if you read something outside those limits, either your charger needs adjustment or must be replaced. Please consult the charger Owner's Manual which was thoughtfully provided to you by the PO. If you don't have it, let us know the make and model and somebody will have specific information on your charger. If the charger output is good, then you have a bad battery. The 12.5v output could indicate that the bad battery is indeed sucking all the amperage off the charger. It could have a shorted cell and be gassing at 12.5 volts, which would consume all the current the charger can provide. One way to spot a shorted cell is to pull the water caps off and see if 1 cell isn't bubbling when the battery is taking a heavy charge. If your charger is bad, consider paying the extra money for a 'smart' 3-stage charger. Your new batteries will thank you! BTW, the 4 jobs of the charger are: bulk, absorbtion, float and equalize charge. Also, here is my favorite battery information link. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Bob the Battery Man
Bob, you said to, turn off the AC input to the charger, disconnect the black output wire(s) from the terminal block on the charger (yada yada). I assume I will have to turn it back on to check it? But would I get the same results (or close) just by checking the battery leads without either battery connected? Its a Professional Mariner Protech 4 Multistage charger and the volt meter I had was el cheapo. I blew 3 fuses in the voltmeter so I'm sure it had at least 12 volts maybe 14. Also, I just notice in the manual a note on the schematic to the battery selector switch; "If 2nd battery installed move the red/whl charge lead from B1 terminal to B2". Do you think the neither the factory, dealer, or PO ever did that and thats why the isolation switch doesn't isolate?
Bob, you said to, turn off the AC input to the charger, disconnect the black output wire(s) from the terminal block on the charger (yada yada). I assume I will have to turn it back on to check it? But would I get the same results (or close) just by checking the battery leads without either battery connected? Its a Professional Mariner Protech 4 Multistage charger and the volt meter I had was el cheapo. I blew 3 fuses in the voltmeter so I'm sure it had at least 12 volts maybe 14. Also, I just notice in the manual a note on the schematic to the battery selector switch; "If 2nd battery installed move the red/whl charge lead from B1 terminal to B2". Do you think the neither the factory, dealer, or PO ever did that and thats why the isolation switch doesn't isolate?
Yes, Andy, you could....
but I have an aversion to messing with the battery terminals if not necessary. The fuses, if installed, are convenient, and the terminals on the charger are less troublesome for me. Then there's the red stuff I spray on the battery terminals..... Did you have the range set right on your multimeter? If it was set to 10 volts, or if you had the leads in the wrong holes, I could see blowing fuses. Is your charger a 'Cul-M-Rite' Pro-Pak IV charger? If not, I can't find it anywhere.... It's hard to tell how your boat it wired... With a 1-both-2-off switch (usually an orange one) the 2 outputs of the charger SHOULD be hooked to the different banks, but who knows. Your best bet is to sit down with a piece of paper and a (good, but not expensive) multimeter and start mapping out the wiring. Let me know what happens. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
but I have an aversion to messing with the battery terminals if not necessary. The fuses, if installed, are convenient, and the terminals on the charger are less troublesome for me. Then there's the red stuff I spray on the battery terminals..... Did you have the range set right on your multimeter? If it was set to 10 volts, or if you had the leads in the wrong holes, I could see blowing fuses. Is your charger a 'Cul-M-Rite' Pro-Pak IV charger? If not, I can't find it anywhere.... It's hard to tell how your boat it wired... With a 1-both-2-off switch (usually an orange one) the 2 outputs of the charger SHOULD be hooked to the different banks, but who knows. Your best bet is to sit down with a piece of paper and a (good, but not expensive) multimeter and start mapping out the wiring. Let me know what happens. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Cul M Rite? Protech
Bob, the charger is made by Professional Mariner-Protech 4 Series. I'm away from the boat but I suspect it is the Protech 1230 (http://www.pmariner.com/productFeature.php?ProductNum=61230) I think I do need to check the charger and the website had a check procedure and I found out there is a 200 amp fuse in the charger. Looks like I'm in for some big bucks and wiring fun.
Bob, the charger is made by Professional Mariner-Protech 4 Series. I'm away from the boat but I suspect it is the Protech 1230 (http://www.pmariner.com/productFeature.php?ProductNum=61230) I think I do need to check the charger and the website had a check procedure and I found out there is a 200 amp fuse in the charger. Looks like I'm in for some big bucks and wiring fun.
Andy, maybe we can simplify a little.
I'm going to try and DESCRIBE how your boat is wired. Here goes; You have two batteries. Each are the same size so as to be interchangeable. Each positive cable should go to the selector switch. The selector should then send the power to the starter motor on the engine. Either the first battery, the second or both are sent to power the engine start system and energize the alternator. Simple. But now it gets complicated. How does power reach the breaker panel. Do you have a separate switch? Most simple setups have a parallel cable off of each battery to a separate selector switch, just like to the engine. Now then, the charger is hooked to each battery bank. It doesn't need a selector switch. Just power up and each bank gets juice. Now, I hope that is close to your system. I want you to recreate that reading that you had with your multimeter. A reading of 12.5 volts at the end of a charging cycle is bad. A final charge should be over 14 and a float should be around 13.8. You say lights are still bright but the engine won't turn over fast enough to start without releasing the compression levers. That begs the questions; How bright is bright. And have you checked all terminals in the start circuit for cleanliness? And what bank is powering up your bright lights? The start bank? But that 12.4 volt reading should crank the engine unless the battery is just too small. Also fuses don't blow because of voltage. Your meter should be able to read any voltage as long as it's setup correctly for the test. The leads have to be on DC input and the selector should be on DC. Even if these were set wrong it shouldn't blow a fuse. I suggest you double check your meter or borrow another. OK, the system I described is the system you said that you want. How close did I get, and what were your settings/switch positions/charger power/time at anchor conditions? Did I make this post readable? It's getting late.
I'm going to try and DESCRIBE how your boat is wired. Here goes; You have two batteries. Each are the same size so as to be interchangeable. Each positive cable should go to the selector switch. The selector should then send the power to the starter motor on the engine. Either the first battery, the second or both are sent to power the engine start system and energize the alternator. Simple. But now it gets complicated. How does power reach the breaker panel. Do you have a separate switch? Most simple setups have a parallel cable off of each battery to a separate selector switch, just like to the engine. Now then, the charger is hooked to each battery bank. It doesn't need a selector switch. Just power up and each bank gets juice. Now, I hope that is close to your system. I want you to recreate that reading that you had with your multimeter. A reading of 12.5 volts at the end of a charging cycle is bad. A final charge should be over 14 and a float should be around 13.8. You say lights are still bright but the engine won't turn over fast enough to start without releasing the compression levers. That begs the questions; How bright is bright. And have you checked all terminals in the start circuit for cleanliness? And what bank is powering up your bright lights? The start bank? But that 12.4 volt reading should crank the engine unless the battery is just too small. Also fuses don't blow because of voltage. Your meter should be able to read any voltage as long as it's setup correctly for the test. The leads have to be on DC input and the selector should be on DC. Even if these were set wrong it shouldn't blow a fuse. I suggest you double check your meter or borrow another. OK, the system I described is the system you said that you want. How close did I get, and what were your settings/switch positions/charger power/time at anchor conditions? Did I make this post readable? It's getting late.
Jumpers everywhere
I hate like heck to follow Fred, but thought I'd relate a recent discovery in line with Andy's problem. I had trouble isolating my two batteries, despite a correctly wired A-B switch, including the infamous "If 2nd battery installed move the red/whl charge lead from B1 terminal to B2". I finally removed the charger itself and found jumpers at the charger end keeping everything combined. So the two batteries were conjoined at the charger; removing these short jumpers separated everything and isolated my problem (bad battery). Dealers may move the second charge lead to the second battery, but double-check that they also removed any other jumpers, especially at the charger itself.
I hate like heck to follow Fred, but thought I'd relate a recent discovery in line with Andy's problem. I had trouble isolating my two batteries, despite a correctly wired A-B switch, including the infamous "If 2nd battery installed move the red/whl charge lead from B1 terminal to B2". I finally removed the charger itself and found jumpers at the charger end keeping everything combined. So the two batteries were conjoined at the charger; removing these short jumpers separated everything and isolated my problem (bad battery). Dealers may move the second charge lead to the second battery, but double-check that they also removed any other jumpers, especially at the charger itself.
200 AMPS? I sure hope not!!!!!
I read the technical literature on the ProMariner site and I think you were referring to the 250 VOLT fuse, which they are telling you can be replaced with a 120 VOLT fuse if you aren't going to leave the good ol' USA. (250 VOLT fuses can be hard to come by here). Don't go buy a new battery charger just yet, Andy. I think the chances are that you have a bad battery. You also don't have to spend big bucks on a meter. Lowes sells a digital meter for $20 (AW Sperry Model DM350-A) or you could spend twice as much for about the same thing at West Marine. Just follow the troubleshooting procedure in the Owner's Manual. You want to see if there is output voltage directly from the charger - ProMariner wants you to see 14.7 volts, then wait for the amount of time set on the switches to see the voltage go down to 13.5 volts. BTW, the other reasons that I prefer removing wiring at the charger instead of the batteries are: 1. It's all in 1 location, instead of spread out around the boat where the various battery banks are. 2. I know I have ISOLATED the charger. As a former electronic technician working on very high voltage and current equipment (including a mobile High Energy Pulser that put out 40,000 AMPS at 100,000 VOLTS), the term ISOLATE is important
3. The wires are smaller and tend to be cleaner. But in the end analysis, either end will probably do. So test the charger, then it's on to the next step. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
I read the technical literature on the ProMariner site and I think you were referring to the 250 VOLT fuse, which they are telling you can be replaced with a 120 VOLT fuse if you aren't going to leave the good ol' USA. (250 VOLT fuses can be hard to come by here). Don't go buy a new battery charger just yet, Andy. I think the chances are that you have a bad battery. You also don't have to spend big bucks on a meter. Lowes sells a digital meter for $20 (AW Sperry Model DM350-A) or you could spend twice as much for about the same thing at West Marine. Just follow the troubleshooting procedure in the Owner's Manual. You want to see if there is output voltage directly from the charger - ProMariner wants you to see 14.7 volts, then wait for the amount of time set on the switches to see the voltage go down to 13.5 volts. BTW, the other reasons that I prefer removing wiring at the charger instead of the batteries are: 1. It's all in 1 location, instead of spread out around the boat where the various battery banks are. 2. I know I have ISOLATED the charger. As a former electronic technician working on very high voltage and current equipment (including a mobile High Energy Pulser that put out 40,000 AMPS at 100,000 VOLTS), the term ISOLATE is important
3. The wires are smaller and tend to be cleaner. But in the end analysis, either end will probably do. So test the charger, then it's on to the next step. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8Bob right again
Bob, I stand corrected-I did mean the 250 volt fuse. I know I've got an old battery so I will take it a step at a time. Replace battery, check charger. Fred-its a standard 340 layout, and unless the PO did some hidden wiring (which I really doubt)it has to be as simple problem. Phitchcox's post about the jumper wire on the charger has me curious too. I guess I'll dig in to that too. Gee, all this fun electical stuff. I can hardly wait to go to the boat!
Bob, I stand corrected-I did mean the 250 volt fuse. I know I've got an old battery so I will take it a step at a time. Replace battery, check charger. Fred-its a standard 340 layout, and unless the PO did some hidden wiring (which I really doubt)it has to be as simple problem. Phitchcox's post about the jumper wire on the charger has me curious too. I guess I'll dig in to that too. Gee, all this fun electical stuff. I can hardly wait to go to the boat!
Fred-forgot to tell you
The DC panel has one breaker for the panel and then seperate breakers for each circuit (lights, instuments, VHF, etc) You know, standard Hunter wiring. Nothing like the "ultimate toy box" that you have built. I guess Legos were nothing to you aye Fred!
The DC panel has one breaker for the panel and then seperate breakers for each circuit (lights, instuments, VHF, etc) You know, standard Hunter wiring. Nothing like the "ultimate toy box" that you have built. I guess Legos were nothing to you aye Fred!
We were too poor.
I had to play with scrap wood if I could find it. Oh well, scared for life. PH, we're talking about toys here. This isn't the latest White House scandal. And good luck to you Andy, keep us posted. You know after redoing my boat the way I wanted it to be, based upon years of experience, I don't get anymore problem solving satisfaction. It's been trouble free except for the rectifier. I really need to hear how these on-line problems work out. Can you guys understand that?
I had to play with scrap wood if I could find it. Oh well, scared for life.
PH, we're talking about toys here. This isn't the latest White House scandal. And good luck to you Andy, keep us posted. You know after redoing my boat the way I wanted it to be, based upon years of experience, I don't get anymore problem solving satisfaction. It's been trouble free except for the rectifier. I really need to hear how these on-line problems work out. Can you guys understand that?Your kids are grown, you re-built your boat
the way you wanted it, and you sold your wife's Porsche...... so all you have left for excitement is this forum, Fred? *yks I am curious about the want/need for a second selector switch. With a single switch, the output of the selected bank(s) is/are directed both to the engine/alternator and the DC distribution panel. Essentially it puts everything on a bus. And I can decide if that bus is powered by either or both banks, and if the input is from the engine or charger or both. I guess I can see the desire to send one bank to the engine and the other to the DC distribution panel, but I also don't think I'm going to re-wire the boat to do that. Not this boat, anyway Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
the way you wanted it, and you sold your wife's Porsche...... so all you have left for excitement is this forum, Fred? *yks I am curious about the want/need for a second selector switch. With a single switch, the output of the selected bank(s) is/are directed both to the engine/alternator and the DC distribution panel. Essentially it puts everything on a bus. And I can decide if that bus is powered by either or both banks, and if the input is from the engine or charger or both. I guess I can see the desire to send one bank to the engine and the other to the DC distribution panel, but I also don't think I'm going to re-wire the boat to do that. Not this boat, anyway
Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Understood,
Sure, what works for the boat as equipped is best. I was thinking that accessories tend to be computerish these days. Voltage drops when starting the engine thus causing havoc with electronics. But I have all my stuff on one bank too and it works. But it's kinda big.
Sure, what works for the boat as equipped is best. I was thinking that accessories tend to be computerish these days. Voltage drops when starting the engine thus causing havoc with electronics. But I have all my stuff on one bank too and it works. But it's kinda big.
Wow, a real glass bulb hydrometer!
It's possible that I have taken more measurements with one of those than anybody else. Broken more, too! And in the most horrible places. Nice setup. Is that the back of the selector switch in the upper right? And what is the red thingie on the upper left? A PO of my boat added a Group 8 wet cell under the dinette and it's about 8 years old now... probably doesn't have a lot of life left in it, although it reads OK. The location is fine, but I'm considering replacing it when the time comes with a couple of Trojan 6 volts or just Group 24 Diehards like my other bank. Heck, this boat is for weekend trips to the islands, I never even make a dent in the batteries! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
It's possible that I have taken more measurements with one of those than anybody else. Broken more, too! And in the most horrible places. Nice setup. Is that the back of the selector switch in the upper right? And what is the red thingie on the upper left? A PO of my boat added a Group 8 wet cell under the dinette and it's about 8 years old now... probably doesn't have a lot of life left in it, although it reads OK. The location is fine, but I'm considering replacing it when the time comes with a couple of Trojan 6 volts or just Group 24 Diehards like my other bank. Heck, this boat is for weekend trips to the islands, I never even make a dent in the batteries! Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
Yep it's real, an antique too and not for sale.
Just kidding, cost about $3.00 at the auto parts store. All it's for is knowing when to equalize. I'm sure it's Chinese. Let's see. That's the back of the single selector switch. It's hooked up in reverse. I send the power to the engine, the panel or both. Default is both. On the panel is a breaker for the LectraSan. I had no idea how much they drew so I threw in a 25 amp-er. Nope, they need 60. The fuse is the red thing to the left. I was close with that breaker though. Most of the time the LecraSan runs, it draws about 25 amps or so, but then it jumps to 48 amps or so for about 10 seconds. A cycle takes about a minute and a half. Love it. No tank, no vents, no smell, no pumping, (except the bowl) no Y valves, no hassles. Just push a button.
Just kidding, cost about $3.00 at the auto parts store. All it's for is knowing when to equalize. I'm sure it's Chinese. Let's see. That's the back of the single selector switch. It's hooked up in reverse. I send the power to the engine, the panel or both. Default is both. On the panel is a breaker for the LectraSan. I had no idea how much they drew so I threw in a 25 amp-er. Nope, they need 60. The fuse is the red thing to the left. I was close with that breaker though. Most of the time the LecraSan runs, it draws about 25 amps or so, but then it jumps to 48 amps or so for about 10 seconds. A cycle takes about a minute and a half. Love it. No tank, no vents, no smell, no pumping, (except the bowl) no Y valves, no hassles. Just push a button.
Battery Switch
Fred, you've got me inspired again. I put two battery switches on my 27-one directed the alternator's charge to either battery. The other was on the enlarged circuit panel I built to select which battery to draw from. My H34 has only the one original 1-both-2 switch but I think I'll add the second this winter for better control when I add the starter solenoid relay to address that problem as outlined on the list earlier this year. Picture is the 27's panel.
Fred, you've got me inspired again. I put two battery switches on my 27-one directed the alternator's charge to either battery. The other was on the enlarged circuit panel I built to select which battery to draw from. My H34 has only the one original 1-both-2 switch but I think I'll add the second this winter for better control when I add the starter solenoid relay to address that problem as outlined on the list earlier this year. Picture is the 27's panel.
Nice work Dan.
And speaking of the stock H34 selector switch, that was one of the first things I changed. I hated it wearing a hole in my butt when I worked in the galley. I used a round cutting from scrap teak ply to fill the hole. Did I mention, nice work on your panel?
And speaking of the stock H34 selector switch, that was one of the first things I changed. I hated it wearing a hole in my butt when I worked in the galley. I used a round cutting from scrap teak ply to fill the hole. Did I mention, nice work on your panel?
Battery Switch
Fred, thanks for the panel complement! I was very pleased with the results of using stock components at an economical price and garage shop surplus wood compared to the large commercial panels. Here's a peak inside. The switch/butt issue hasn't come to pass yet as the admiral only makes resevations in the galley! I am considering recessing the battery switch by moving to the inside of the engine box and trimming off the skirt like I did on the 27's panel. The wiring takes a nasty bend and I can't get my digital VM's probes on either batt post to test ambient voltage before firing up the charger on the AC panel. I need to do extensive rewiring aft of the galley to correct PO mistakes and will tackle the switch then. Oops--Forgot picture!
Fred, thanks for the panel complement! I was very pleased with the results of using stock components at an economical price and garage shop surplus wood compared to the large commercial panels. Here's a peak inside. The switch/butt issue hasn't come to pass yet as the admiral only makes resevations in the galley! I am considering recessing the battery switch by moving to the inside of the engine box and trimming off the skirt like I did on the 27's panel. The wiring takes a nasty bend and I can't get my digital VM's probes on either batt post to test ambient voltage before firing up the charger on the AC panel. I need to do extensive rewiring aft of the galley to correct PO mistakes and will tackle the switch then. Oops--Forgot picture!
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