Annapolis Boat Fire

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Horn Point Marina. Two aged +40ft powerboats, one a liveaboard, both destroyed. Early estimate is $200,000. Video.

The city fireboat couldn't be mobilized, the dock standpipe was inoperative (probably because it was single digit cold. The early culprit is an unattended space heater. Cost a dock mate his boat too.

More here
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,704
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Horn Point Marina. Two aged +40ft powerboats, one a liveaboard, both destroyed. Early estimate is $200,000. Video.

The city fireboat couldn't be mobilized, the dock standpipe was inoperative (probably because it was single digit cold. The early culprit is an unattended space heater. Cost a dock mate his boat too.

More here
Sad.... Electric space heaters on boats tax old electrical systems waaaaay to much....

I have stayed at Horn Point, nice little marina, and if that was summer I bet more boats would have been lost. Seems a little empty right now...
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Sad.... Electric space heaters on boats tax old electrical systems waaaaay to much....

I have stayed at Horn Point, nice little marina, and if that was summer I bet more boats would have been lost. Seems a little empty right now...
Dem space heaters kept yer bones warm there. Helped by a copius quantity of Pain Killers!
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
We are still waiting for the fire marshal's report. And thanks to Queen Anne's County for mob-ing their fire boat across the bay! Need to figure out why the two Anne Arundel Co. boats couldn't get on scene. The docks were icy, the fire standpipe was inoperable and the temps were way low, this could have gotten out of hand if not for the fact that most boaters had hauled their boats for the winter. Hardly anyone around here has a real boat-heating system.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Let's get back to the 'real boat heating system' for a second. I keep a Mermaid on my boat, and consequently rarely use it, I call it "Big Bertha". Noisy damn contraption that I dislike intensely.
The space heater. I hear an awful lot about these things. On here mostly. Are we talking about the millions of heaters used worldwide in nasty ass trailer parks everywhere? While eliminating these things has its own particular appeal, from a personal standpoint of view, if these things are THAT hazardous, why are they still for sale?
In an age where WD-40 is not even worth the weight of the can anymore because of its ineffective product being sued out of existence, walmart on the other hand seems to have little trouble selling these small heaters by the truckload. And while the average trailerpark dwellers' mean intellect will rarely be in question, these honey boo boo'ers don't seem to have a problem much burning their houses out from under themselves.
So why should WE??
This is not a miracle of modern machinery, it's a PLUG UP ELECTRIC HEATER!
Despite not being approved by, once again, the yacht people, we live in fear. Fear of a heater. Or our own intellect..
Myself, I would rarely consider putting a small heater unattended around anything that would burn, but a twenty dollar space heater doesn't strike the feeling of foreboding like some other, and obviously more dangerous things on a boat.

In conclusion of my morning rant: The heater did not burn down the boat. The heater was an instrument of a dumbass, no more so than blaming the auto that ran down your dog. It is not the fault of the auto, nor of the dog.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,704
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Let's get back to the 'real boat heating system' for a second. I keep a Mermaid on my boat, and consequently rarely use it, I call it "Big Bertha". Noisy damn contraption that I dislike intensely.
The space heater. I hear an awful lot about these things. On here mostly. Are we talking about the millions of heaters used worldwide in nasty ass trailer parks everywhere? While eliminating these things has its own particular appeal, from a personal standpoint of view, if these things are THAT hazardous, why are they still for sale?
In an age where WD-40 is not even worth the weight of the can anymore because of its ineffective product being sued out of existence, walmart on the other hand seems to have little trouble selling these small heaters by the truckload. And while the average trailerpark dwellers' mean intellect will rarely be in question, these honey boo boo'ers don't seem to have a problem much burning their houses out from under themselves.
So why should WE??

This is not a miracle of modern machinery, it's a PLUG UP ELECTRIC HEATER!
Despite not being approved by, once again, the yacht people, we live in fear. Fear of a heater. Or our own intellect..
Myself, I would rarely consider putting a small heater unattended around anything that would burn, but a twenty dollar space heater doesn't strike the feeling of foreboding like some other, and obviously more dangerous things on a boat.

In conclusion of my morning rant: The heater did not burn down the boat. The heater was an instrument of a dumbass, no more so than blaming the auto that ran down your dog. It is not the fault of the auto, nor of the dog.
Chris,

On land we do not have a measly 30A service that in reality can only handle 20A SAFELY!!! On land we usually have a 100A or 200A service. On land we also have good connections that are physically bolted to the electric companies service drop. On boats we use an antiquated left over plug design from 1938. It was NEVER designed nor intended for marine use, yet we use it for that.

The problem is not the heaters, unless someone sets a fleece coat on it, as happens about 10X per winter here in Maine, but rather the high loads imposed by them on your boats usually piss-poor and already unsafe corroded electrical system.

I am amazed that even someone who works on boats such as yourself can even see the real issue...?

How about some math:

1500W heater = 12.5A
2000W Domestic Water Heater = 16.6A

Right there alone, with just ONE 1500W space heater and the water heater kicking in we have grossly overloaded the safe zone for a marine 30A service!! Now keep in mind that many owners supplement reverse cycle heat, when it gets cold with more electric in the form of a space heater..... D'oh....! You would be amazed at the sheer number of boats who reset a main breaker multiple times per week and are then shocked to find a melted shore power inlet or plug... !

I caught this one just in time.. Was still hot while taking that photo...... TWO SPACE HEATERS ON A 50A SERVICE, PLUS THE WATER HEATER... Main breaker had never tripped because it was running at about 83% of 50A........



Even on-land no outlet or breaker should be run at more than roughly 80% of its rating. This is why you see most space heaters max out at 1500W because people WILL plug them into 15A outlets. A 1500W space heater is close to 80% of the load for a 15A breaker.

On a boat, with an old twist-lock 30A shore cord running anywhere above 21A or so, is simply ASKING FOR TROUBLE...... It is Darwin award level.....

Space heaters are one of the biggest contributors to pushing boats electrical systems into the danger zone. It is not usually the heater but the SAFE working limit of your boats system. The little ceramic disc heaters are pretty darn safe it is what you are connecting that massive AC load to that makes it an unsafe situation.

You want to run electric heat safely add a second dedicated 30A or 50A service and use a SmartPlug when you do....;)

Beyond that many folks begin tripping main breakers in the winter so they go out and buy an extension cord and 30A adapter for the dock pedestal to power their extra heaters. They are now trying to "protect" a 14GA or 12GA wire with a 30A pedestal breaker.....D'oh......

This sort of thing would never be allowed under land based code but because marine use does not fall under NEC or NFPA standards, after the shore pedestal, Marinco, Hubbell and others feel the need to sell products that can create these blatantly unsafe situations that would NEVER, EVER be allowed on-shore. When was the last time you saw a pre-made adapter that went from a close dryer or range outlet to a 15A plug...????? Sounds stupid right? Sadly it is done every day after dock pedestals because we really have no hall monitors protecting us from ourselves.........:cussing:

Sorry for my rant but heaters are a MAJOR contributor to overloading shore circuits beyond the max safe working rage on boats with twist-lock inlets and cord sets.
 
Sep 13, 2013
74
Beneteau Oceanis 41 Seattle
So the problem is not the heater, but the load it produces and what is between it and the pedestal. Makes sense.
It seems then the water heater could be equally dangerous, no? In a boat left with a water heater, and battery charger on, would be roughly equivalent to a boat left unattended with space heater and battery charger on? Problem is when multiple things could kick in, connections corroded that can handle less current than you think, etc. A 30A circuit with a small (900W) heater of a safe-for-home design and nothing else (perhaps a trickle charger) would be safe?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,704
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So the problem is not the heater, but the load it produces and what is between it and the pedestal. Makes sense.
It seems then the water heater could be equally dangerous, no? In a boat left with a water heater, and battery charger on, would be roughly equivalent to a boat left unattended with space heater and battery charger on? Problem is when multiple things could kick in, connections corroded that can handle less current than you think, etc. A 30A circuit with a small (900W) heater of a safe-for-home design and nothing else (perhaps a trickle charger) would be safe?
I am not a believer that any high load AC devices be left on when the boat is not attended. But that is just my opinion, based on what I see and experience as a marine electrician.

If you KNOW your AC system is 100% up-to snuff, as in new wiring, new terminations, new inlet and cord set, and you are not overloading your 30A twist-lock shore power by more than 18-20A you are likely safe.

The McCotter's marina fire in 2011 was blamed on a shore power inlet erupting into flames. It caused approx $23,000,000.00 in damage and turned McCotter's into a Superfund clean up site.....:cussing:

Also some heaters can be to blame, especially old ones with no tip-over protection. Remember houses & single wides or even double wides, don't have boat wakes to contend with but boats do. I have seen electric heaters on tables, counters etc. than have slid to the edge and were perilously awaiting the next boat wake to fall on the settee and light it on fire.....

A lot of this is simple common sense but a large portion is the boat owner becoming educated about the safety & physical limits of their own shore power system.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
As to the question of running a water heater and a charger. That load alone might not be a big deal but when winter comes you add onto those loads several heaters. Some will use the reverse cycle A/C system for heat. The A/C load is about 20% less than the heater load on one of those units. Then add a cube heater or two and you are pulling both circuits at the full 30 continuously.
We've been running 2 of those cube heaters plus water heater and charger plus a few small appliances in cold weather with zero burning of our connectors...but we run the heater on LOW power so our continuous draw is under 15 amps.
So its all a out overloading a poorly designed system
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Hehe. Don't apologize for the rant Maine, that is exactly what I expected. And wanted for that matter. Folks here know by now I don't have a problem playing the fool. Even that thing with 'Old Sparky' a couple weeks ago, I had that wretched looking thing slid overboard before I asked about it. Wiring is in fact my super paranoid, #10 feeding circuits, 4/0 cranking cables, I hate failures. Especially ones that could kill. (I can 'live' with the idea of hurting myself, but the idea of hurting someone else on a boat due to my incompetence would be unacceptable).

It is not too very difficult to look in the breaker box at home and wonder why my boat doesn't look like this. 300 amps? Whoo buddy, we light up the marina tonight. I even stand at the side of the house and bemoan the 8 foot ground rod, and wish I had one at the bottom of the slip. But my ground is shared. With everyone elses leaking old relics shocking my zincs to death. (Which is another reason I went to parts unknown). I KNOW my neighbors are not 'compliant', by what I see, and what I read. Here.

Three days ago, (count 'em, 3), an acquaintance on the hill was getting trips. He asked me about it, because I have an 'interest' here on the hill. We do big boats here, 50 and 100 amp services commonly. 30's are nothing here, we use twist locks on our drills. But I noticed a couple of days before he asked me this, that he had a new 30 amp cord. It did catch my eye, simply because I used to be in the 'noticing' business, but I disregarded it, new cord, big deal. But I checked his power anyway, on his hookup, (it's on the hill, no ped), there's a 30, a 50, and a 100, (plus 80 pounds of water, we don't play), and there's enough power down there to run a MacDonald's. He said he blew out his cord, so I ask, what's running? His 12,000 btu furnace, (which I didn't even KNOW you could run on the hill, I thought it had to have water through it), TWO space heaters, and hot water. God&*)$^%$#@!(!!!!!!! Say WHAT? I had no idea. Didn't even think you could light all that up with 30 amps. Hell, we'll have to install a zerk fitting in the power meter wheel to keep from burning up its bearings..

So no, I expected you to chime in with both barrels blazing Maine. Planned on it. It is this kind of word that gets peoples attention.

ie: the conclusion of my rant on the last paragraph.

(Don't apologize Maine. We thank you).

Well, THEY do, I take it back:D
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,426
-na -NA Anywhere USA
The best advice given to my customers when leaving the boat for any reason, shut the power off. If during the winter, winterize the boat. If living on board, upgrade the wiring, panel, etc. making sure the electrical load would not be jeopardized.
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
I did read Maine's excellent article on the twist lock plug. Although mine has the ring and the threaded collar which prevents much movement within the socket, that does not resolve the contact area issue. Is it fair to say that twist lock plugs [at both ends of the cord], even when making the full contact of which they are capable [miniscule, as Maine's study shows], is probably not delivering the 30 or 50 amps the dock is putting out?
 
Mar 28, 2010
91
Catalina C320 Washington, NC
The McCotter's marina fire in 2011 was blamed on a shore power inlet erupting into flames. It caused approx $23,000,000.00 in damage and turned McCotter's into a Superfund clean up site.....:cussing:
.
Any idea on how the $23,000,000 breaks down? I'm on the same creek, across from McCotter's. Knowing the boats that were there and the pier that was destroyed, their value seems a small part of the figure. Also, the replacement pier would be a small part. Of course, cleaning up the sunken boats, pilings, and other rubble took a while and that had to be expensive. However, the total figure seems excessive. My question, of course, isn't intended to detract at all from your good warnings, just curious.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
At some point, after a Superfund site is declared, and responsible parties assigned, there is a massive influx of attorneys who show up and stop the cleanup while they attempt to get their clients out, and responsibility transferred to someone else. Wouldn't surprise me if half that cost was attorney's fees being recouped from a settlement. Meanwhile the damages, and lost revenue compound, toxins spread.
 
Feb 6, 2013
437
Hunter 31 Deale, MD
The space heater. I hear an awful lot about these things. On here mostly. Are we talking about the millions of heaters used worldwide in nasty ass trailer parks everywhere? While eliminating these things has its own particular appeal, from a personal standpoint of view, if these things are THAT hazardous, why are they still for sale?
In a trailer park, the space heater doesn't get tipped over when another trailer passes by too close and too fast.

I use a space on the boat when I'm on the boat and awake. Our marina has a specisifc rule against leaving them unattended.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
... the space heater doesn't get tipped over when another trailer passes by too close and too fast....
Holmes used to make a certain bathroom-rated heater. It could be hung on a wall or laid on it's back on the floor. "This old house" magazine once spoke highly of it, but of course that particular model is not to be found, so I got a different one. The advantage of that type of heater is that it has bippies on the back so if you lay it on it's back (or if it falls over) there is still space so it can draw in air. Holmes, for one, still makes one, but it is more complicated, but it's what I bought when the old one died.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Odd. I have a space heater in the garage, (the admiral likes her acura to stay warm), and I went in there, and simulated a wave going under the boat. I kicked it over. It stopped running. And heating. And catching the acura on fire.
No screaming. The insurance people didn't call. Nobody cared.

They fall over; and they quit.

Because it is a home heater. (Or garage).

Sailboaters are supposed to be SMARTER than the power crowd. Act like it.

It's embarrassing..
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,704
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Odd. I have a space heater in the garage, (the admiral likes her acura to stay warm), and I went in there, and simulated a wave going under the boat. I kicked it over. It stopped running. And heating. And catching the acura on fire.
No screaming. The insurance people didn't call. Nobody cared.

They fall over; and they quit.

Because it is a home heater. (Or garage).

Sailboaters are supposed to be SMARTER than the power crowd. Act like it.

It's embarrassing..
Not all heaters have tip-over or over-temp protection and that, IIRC, is a fairly new-ish UL requirement. Keep in mind that not all portable heaters sold are UL Listed/Approved. Some manufacturers may sneak around tip over protection by running the heater through another standards organization...

I was just on a boat two days ago with a vintage, almost avocado green, "dish" heater. No tip over protection, glowing red elements and was 1" from the edge of the table. Lucky the boat was on the hard.....:D

I have a customer with an 80's brown Pelonis and it's a killer little heater, actually made of metal, and it too has no tip over protection but he only uses it on the hard..

All the space heaters I use when working on boats have tip-over protection but not all space heaters used on boats have tip-over protection.

I recently came across some interesting stuff:

"Despite the fact that electric space heaters do not have an open flame, according to the NationalFire Protection Agency (NFPA), space heaters, whether portable or stationary, accounted for one-third (30%) of the home heating fires and three-fourths (73%) of home heating fire deaths in 2006. Space heaters (portable and stationary) were involved in an estimated 64,100 U.S. home structure fires, 540 civilian deaths, 1,400 civilian injuries, and $9.4 billion in direct property damage."

"
The NFPA states that 24% of all space heater fires were caused when the heater was placed too near combustible materials. More disturbing, this easily preventable fire cause has resulted in 58% of all space heater-related fire fatalities."

On a boat the heater does not need to necessarily tip over to start a fire it could slide or something could fall onto it with a big boat wake.... That said I belive the biggest threat on boats, as I experience it, is overloading of the piss-poor shore power cord standard we use....;)
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Most of these fires were started by the marinco 30 amp inlet plug, not the heater itself. Take a look at Mainsails detailed report on the old 30 amp plugs vs the new smartplug.

And my 2 space heaters do NOT shut off if tipped over.
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
Oh my God. I didn't even know such a thing existed. Why would anybody want one? Shoot yeah, of course I keep a twenty dollar heater in the work truck for use when I'm in the boat. I've kicked that silly thing over a thousand times crawling around it. There is no way in hell I would own anything that didn't have SOME safety feature. Damn Maine, you DO get to see some crazy stuff. I would be inclined to throw something like those things away, and swear somebody stole them..

(here is where I went back and got my foot a little unwedged from mouth).

This goes back in my mind over a recent discussion about where someone finally said, "Idiots blow up their boats with propane". I digress. My dehumidifier keeps it warm enough in my boat from freezing. Don't know how, it strikes me as more of a cooler than a heater. Damn those British and their thermal units. It's an evil trick.

The key difference may be twenty dollars versus 300 dollars.
 
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