R.W...Anchoring..
You are certainly entitled to your opinions, that's what these forums are fo, but I can't let yours go by un-challenged without adding my opinions and experience. First let me clarify a few things about my experience to put this in perspective and hopefully lend some credibility to my opinion. #1 Over the years, & currently, I own or have owned the following anchors: 2 Spades (1 aluminum, 1 steel), 1 Supermax, 2 Fortresses, 2 CQR's, 2 genuine Bruce's, many Danforths, Delta Fast Set, Manson Supreme & a Rocna. I have well over 100 sets and anchorings on each anchor with the exception of the Super max where I have about 60. Some like the CQR's & Bruce, which I used for years, I am most likely into the 400+/- range. #2 I actually SET my anchors with at least 80% of my aux engines available power. This is something I witness approx 85-90% of boaters NOT doing. #3 I also like to dive on anchors (not just mine) when and if the visibility allows. As a kid It was my job to recover the fisherman anchor or Danforth from rocks if it was fouled so I've been diving to check set and bottom type for a long time when appropriate. #4 I have actually physically tested many of my anchors in a hard inter-tidal substrate by towing them with my truck and then monitoring set distance and general holding power. Most boaters have NO CLUE as to how an anchor actually sets its self or what it looks like. Click "Related Link" at the bottom to see an actual video I made: Now to address your points: Quote RW: "So, since one of the things that I hate most is dragging anchor. My Family has a history of doing that." Followed up with: Quote RW: "Almost all anchors work!" Excuse me for wondering but your family has a "history of dragging" yet you claim only a few words away from that statement that "Almost all anchors work"? Would you mind telling us, seeing as you qualified that with "almost", which anchors don't work and which anchors you had trouble dragging with? Shared experience is the best kind.. Quote RW: "They work as designed!" Last time I checked NO manufacturer claimed their anchors are designed to drag? This statement clearly needs more clarification. The CQR is designed to anchor your boat yet the Sail Magazine/West Marine testers could not get it to set and hold more than 350lbs of load while at the same time the Rocna held upwards of 5000 lbs. of pulling force!!! I think the Sail/WM testers would question if the CQR works "reliably". My experience with the CQR has been quite lackluster. I have had MANY, MANY occasions, where no matter how much I tried, I could not get a properly sized CQR, for my vessel, to set and hold my boat. I could sometimes literally tow it around a cove in reverse prepping the bottom for corn seed!! I've tried every CQR setting method (why are there setting methods if there is not a setting problem?)including the drop it and let it bury its self method and backing down over an hour or two later and still the CQR refused to set! Most, and I say most by qualifying my comment above, or 85-90% of boaters never actually setting the anchor would never know that the CQR did not actually set until a wind pipes up. So how does one know if the anchor is holding the boat, and set, if you don't fully back down on it? YOU DON'T!! This is why when ever we have a good blow up here in a cove or gunk hole there are always a few boats that DRAG!!! Once, in Winter Harbor on Vinalhaven Island, 80% of the boats dragged in winds between 45 & 55 knots! I was using a LOW HOLDING Bruce at the time with a 10:1 scope and held fast but only because I had actually set the anchor. There were three others, who dragged, also using properly sized Bruce anchors. Peeling boats off the rocks in the morning was interesting and the most common comment was "I've been boating for years and never dragged?" or something to that effect... Sure, in the usual benign summer conditions we see a boater can get lucky using the "cynder block on a rope trick" (read not properly setting the anchor) but the minute the wind kicks up bye bye... Quote RW: "They can all be improved!" We agree 150% on this point and I include the Rocna and Manson when I say this yet I can't, for the life of me, think how to improve upon a 100% set, hold and re-set record?? BTW your brother is the FIRST report I've read on the 20+ forums I have book marked that actually did not like the Rocna? Mine pulls up mud balls every time but it NEVER, EVER breaks out or drags and I'm at about 112+/- anchorings with it with max sustained winds of 45 knots. Every single report of either the Manson Supreme or the Rocna I've read is glowing other than your lone report. I'm sure there are more and maybe Craig could chime in on his actual return rate? Quote RW: "Some have fatal flaws." The only fatal flaws I've seen are broken shanks on some Bruce knock offs. Original Bruce anchors were forged and many of the cheap knock offs are cast in China. There are quite a few reports of these "fatal flaws" and even a photo here and there around the net. Perhaps you could expand on "fatal flaws" so others would know what to look for. Quote RW: "So, most work well... to improve them, extra chain and extra scope will help the anchor set on the bottom as the anchor is designed and help it dig in. Short scope is never a plus on any anchor unless it is of mooring weight." Until I tried the Spade, Manson and Rocna I too believed this. I can regularly set my Rocna and Manson on a little as 2:1 scope and have it set like I was tied to a dock piling. NO other anchor has been able to do this. With the Spade, on the right bottom, I can do this at about 3:1. The sustained 45 knots with my Rocna was at a 3:1 scope but NOT by choice! The anchor did not budge! I would have moved locations with any other anchor other than the Manson or Rocna. Quote RW: "Fatal flaws: reset at angles due to tide , wind, waves, sailing of the boat on the mooring. Many anchors clean themselves and reset quickly. Some anchors foul with mud or grass and don't reset. Some anchors clear debris and reset quickly at 180 degree." I would not call failure to re-set a fatal flaw I would call it a design charecteristic. There are very few places with tides like we see in Maine. We can often do a 720 (as evidenced by the cookie trail on my GPS) in Maine over night. The only anchors to NEVER break out on me, once set, have been the steel Spade (aluminum version broke and failed to re-set a couple of times), the Manson Supreme and the Rocna. Danforth anchors are the most prone to this with the tide and wind shifts we see up here then the Fortress. My Bruce was actually quite reliable with this but still not at the 100% I've had with my Manson and Rocna. I have anchored in eel grass with my both my Rocna and Manson where I could not even get any of my other anchors to set and could never anchor before. Yes they come up with big balls of mud but before I haul anchor in the morning I usually do a back down to see if it's still holding and every time they still are even though they may come up with mud balls. One of the biggest problems we have up here is a soft upper layer of mud and then a harder underlying substrate. The other anchors penetrate this soft layer fine, which is good to about 15 knots +/-, but they refuse to penetrate the harder under layer. Quote RW: "Almost all anchors work well in rock, they grab hard if the rock strata is 90 degrees to your anchorage. Only a very fine point will find a cross strata in the rock should angles change." We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The fisherman type is the one that works best IMHO but it depends on the size and type of rock. Duck Harbor on Isle Au Haut is a very hard rocky bottom and I could never get my CQR or Bruce to set and hold there. My Manson set and held on the first try and solid enough to make me confident enough to go for a 6 hour hike. Quote RW: "If in mud and grass, They go together.. If the anchor will not clear it self of mud and grass, it will sail through the water fouled , never touching the bottom if the wind is blowing." I've only ever had this happen with either my Danforth or my Fortresses. I stopped using my Fortress as a primary after 4 un-sets on wind/tide shifts in less than 30 anchorings. I do however still use the Fortress as a dedicated directional pull stern anchor as it works very well in that situation! Quote RW: "Grass and mud is the most challenging anchor set. The grass fouls the anchor and does not let it reset." I agree that with my older style anchors this is a tough condition but with the Rocna and Manson it has changed the game! I can actually NOW anchor in this stuff reliably where before it was a crap shoot getting the anchor to penetrate the grass. Even my steel Spade is not 100% in this stuff and my CQR, Bruce, Delta and Supermax are all between 40 & 80% set reliability in grass. Quote RW: "Chain is one of the best things going. It helps keep the anchor at the right angle to the bottom that it was designed for." No argument here except to add that you NEED a snubber, with some give, if you have all chain! Shock loading is bad! Quote RW: "The problem you face buying an anchor is that old anchors that have worked and the new anchors that are want-a-bees. The Danforth has proven itself. For the sake of selling new anchors, Bruce found all the flaws of Danforth but didn't name it's own. Then Rocna named all the other anchor flaws.It did not claim it's own." Huh???? What???? C'mon the Danforth has proven its self to be an unreliable re-setter. I have owned perhaps 8 of them over the years and remember when it was a Danforth or a Fisherman and neither was very reliable in all conditions!! Also the Fortress (similar in design to the Danforth) has blown it away in nearly ever anchor test conducted and, in my experience, in real world conditions such as holding and initial set. I under stand why Rocna did not "claim it's own" flaws because as near as I can tell from the many, many on-line reports combined with my own vast experience with the general design (over 200 anchorings between the Rocna and Manson) it does not seem to have many flaws. As I said before your brother is the ONLY one I've heard of sending back a Rocna. Please remember I call them as I see them. I still actually own 2 CQR's, 2 Spades, 1 Supermax, 1 Manson Supreme, 2 Fortresses, 1 Rocna and a Bruce. The Delta was sold to a friend and the Danforths have long ago been given away in favor of the Fortress. Because I bought and paid for and own all these anchors I have NO biases other than measured performance over a time!!!! There are very few boaters who have spent the time researching and using the sheer number of anchors I have to find the best possible anchor out there. The Rocna and Manson Supreme are by a decent margin the best performing anchors I have ever used and I do own more than one "new generation" anchor including the Supermax and my Spades so it's NOT an issue of "new generation vs. old"! I base my reviews and critiques on PERFORMANCE!!! From reading your post I under stand you have no direct experience using a Manson Supreme or a Rocna and the only experience you do have is your brother sending one back because of a mud ball. In 112+/- sets and anchors my Rocna has NEVER come up clean yet has never failed to set anything short of virtually immediately, has never dragged and is ALWAYS still 100% set the next morning when I do my back down check (of which I don;t know ANY boaters who do this).. If you don't have direct experience with a product it's tough to make claims or biases against it with credibility..... P.S. I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO LET YOU GUYS KNOW WHEN MY ROCNA FAILS TO SET, HOLD OR RE_SET AND WHY AND HOW!!! It just has not happened yet..
