I've watched some boats drag who had high dollar anchors and some hold who had plain old danforths in the same anchorage with the same bottom in the same weather. I'm trying to make sense of it all, but sometimes it does not make much sense. I have this theory that if I add 15' of stainless chain to my existing 8' of vinyl-covered chain, it will add more weight. THUS, keeping the rode from stretching tight too easily and putting upward pressure on the anchor. THUS, keeping the anchor from dragging as easily that if I only had 8' of chain. ALSO, for the Keys and Bahamas, where the bottom is a combination of grass, sticky mud and some sand, which anchor is best for a 25' boat? ADDITIONALLY, if a 20-lb. anchor is good, is a 25-lb. anchor of the same manufacture better? It appears that anchor selection is one-half advertising, one-half budget and one-half voodoo.
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Danforth and 15 ft of chain.
. . . and your worries will be over. you are correct about the chain. A sufficient amount causes the anchor to lay on the bottom and not be lifted by the rode. This gives the anchor its maximum holding power. Regards, Ted
. . . and your worries will be over. you are correct about the chain. A sufficient amount causes the anchor to lay on the bottom and not be lifted by the rode. This gives the anchor its maximum holding power. Regards, Ted
Chip,
What the hell,, go for 1/4 inch HT chain, as much as you can carry. Twenty Five feet weighs less than 25 pounds. Just loose that vinyl chain. More chain means more happiness when sleeping on the hook at night. (or anything else you might want to do)
What the hell,, go for 1/4 inch HT chain, as much as you can carry. Twenty Five feet weighs less than 25 pounds. Just loose that vinyl chain. More chain means more happiness when sleeping on the hook at night. (or anything else you might want to do)
2 cents worth
Since you asked, here's my tiny minded opinion. I swear by the Bruce type anchor WITH a lot of chain. We used a Bruce for many years with lots of over sized chain. We never dragged anchor, not even once.... This turned out to be a great set up for us and our area, your area might require something different. Besides, even my wife could raise the Bruce, unlike the CQR and after storms the anchor would come up simply by sailing over the anchor. And by lots of chain, a minimum for me is one foot of chain for every foot of boat. More chain is better if you want to sleep well. Just my 2 cents worth.
Since you asked, here's my tiny minded opinion. I swear by the Bruce type anchor WITH a lot of chain. We used a Bruce for many years with lots of over sized chain. We never dragged anchor, not even once.... This turned out to be a great set up for us and our area, your area might require something different. Besides, even my wife could raise the Bruce, unlike the CQR and after storms the anchor would come up simply by sailing over the anchor. And by lots of chain, a minimum for me is one foot of chain for every foot of boat. More chain is better if you want to sleep well. Just my 2 cents worth.
Fortress for sale cheap.
Having anchored out for the second hurricane in as many weeks I will provide my $.02 worth. I drug a big Fortress all over the bayou for Francis and my CQR saved the day and the boat. I tried to set that Fortress three different times and all three times it drug with little resistance. Because most of the local bayous have mud over sand I even tried the mud setting but to no avail. When Ivan came along I put out two Danforths and the CQR. I set the Danforths with my outboard (115 HP). The sailboat (Hunter 30) never moved an inch in hurricane force winds. I don't think the Fortress anchors are heavy enough to sink into the mud (mud plalms or otherwise). The Fortress and the Danforths had 20 ft of 3/8 chain and a 3/4" nylon rode.
Having anchored out for the second hurricane in as many weeks I will provide my $.02 worth. I drug a big Fortress all over the bayou for Francis and my CQR saved the day and the boat. I tried to set that Fortress three different times and all three times it drug with little resistance. Because most of the local bayous have mud over sand I even tried the mud setting but to no avail. When Ivan came along I put out two Danforths and the CQR. I set the Danforths with my outboard (115 HP). The sailboat (Hunter 30) never moved an inch in hurricane force winds. I don't think the Fortress anchors are heavy enough to sink into the mud (mud plalms or otherwise). The Fortress and the Danforths had 20 ft of 3/8 chain and a 3/4" nylon rode.
a bruce and HT chain
Chip I agree with Fred and "crazy cracker" get rid of the vinyl covered chain get 25 - 35 ft of HT chain and a good sized Bruce anchor.I use a 22lb Bruce for my Cat 30. that anchor and 25 ft of chain weighs less than 50 lbs. - you'll sleep well. Make sure it will fit your anchor locker. see west marine link for some bruce anchor reviews.
Chip I agree with Fred and "crazy cracker" get rid of the vinyl covered chain get 25 - 35 ft of HT chain and a good sized Bruce anchor.I use a 22lb Bruce for my Cat 30. that anchor and 25 ft of chain weighs less than 50 lbs. - you'll sleep well. Make sure it will fit your anchor locker. see west marine link for some bruce anchor reviews.
Practical Sailor
Practical Sailor has done the best series of tests of different anchor types. Different types hold best in different bottoms. The vinyl will hold water on the chain, and cuase rust and corrosion - thus the advice to get rid of it. I'd seek advice from someone in the Keys/Bahama. Since a coral head will chew right through rope, you might want to lengthen your chain for that area. David Lady Lillie
Practical Sailor has done the best series of tests of different anchor types. Different types hold best in different bottoms. The vinyl will hold water on the chain, and cuase rust and corrosion - thus the advice to get rid of it. I'd seek advice from someone in the Keys/Bahama. Since a coral head will chew right through rope, you might want to lengthen your chain for that area. David Lady Lillie
Is bigger better?
Is it reasonable to assume that a 25' Danforth is better than a 16' Danforth in terms of holding or is this flawed thinking?
Is it reasonable to assume that a 25' Danforth is better than a 16' Danforth in terms of holding or is this flawed thinking?
25-lb., not 25'
What I meant to say in the previous reply - Is it reasonable to expect a 25-lb. Danforth to hold significantly better than a 16-lb. Danforth? 25' Danforth - That would be a sight. Sheeshh.
What I meant to say in the previous reply - Is it reasonable to expect a 25-lb. Danforth to hold significantly better than a 16-lb. Danforth? 25' Danforth - That would be a sight. Sheeshh.
Good morning Chip
Yes, heavier means bigger which means more holding power. The extra weight helps the anchor set too. Read what Frank had to say about his Fortress. I like Fortress anchors. Used one for many years as my primary hook but they are a touchy-feely kind of tool. You have to set them after you are sure it didn't 'kite' because they are so light. You need to keep a finger on the rode at the same time the boat is backing to feel what the hook is doing. It works well in sand, less so in mud. On my H34 with her new windlass, we just went to all chain, 200' of quarter inch HT. The hook. A Bruce. The original that came with the boat, 22 pounds. It's a whole 'nuther world! I've said this here before. The Bruce needs to be sold with a label that says " For use with all chain rodes only". Anchoring is now safe, secure and EASY!
Yes, heavier means bigger which means more holding power. The extra weight helps the anchor set too. Read what Frank had to say about his Fortress. I like Fortress anchors. Used one for many years as my primary hook but they are a touchy-feely kind of tool. You have to set them after you are sure it didn't 'kite' because they are so light. You need to keep a finger on the rode at the same time the boat is backing to feel what the hook is doing. It works well in sand, less so in mud. On my H34 with her new windlass, we just went to all chain, 200' of quarter inch HT. The hook. A Bruce. The original that came with the boat, 22 pounds. It's a whole 'nuther world! I've said this here before. The Bruce needs to be sold with a label that says " For use with all chain rodes only". Anchoring is now safe, secure and EASY!
Chip, Yes. All things being equal a 25lb anchor
will be better holding than a 16lb. The main reason is that the effective fluke area of the 25lb anchor will be larger than the 16lb. So for the exact same conditions the 25lb will have more surface area, thus resistance to dragging and holding the boat. The secondary reason that the 25lb will be better is that it is heavier and thus will be able to get down into the seabed to set quicker and deeper. Thats why (once they set well) you see these lightweight fortress/danforth anchors having more resistance/holding power in straight line anchoring tests than much heavier traditional anchors such as a CQR or others. But the real problem with those lightweight anchors is that they down't always set right away or well because they are so light, sometimes (due to water current or other reasons) they just "skate" away from the boat or along the bottom and don't immediately "dig in" Thus the need for the extra chain sometime to really pull the shank down and help set the anchor. Here is a nice informative site (albeit a bit biased due to the anchor it promotes). But I do truly beleive that it highlights very important apects in what is required of a good anchor. http://www.spade-anchor.com/Site%20anglais/US/technicaldetails.htm Notice it has two types of anchors rated for the same size boat, the only difference is one is aluminum and the other steel. They are rated the same because the surface area for resistance is the same. (but quietly they will admit that the steel will set a bit quicker or easier in tough conditions - ie. sea grass etc. Due to the extra weight being able to peirce through to the sea bottom) http://www.spade-anchor.co.uk/faqs.htm There is no perfect anchor and some anchors are much better for some conditions than others, but the better ones hold and set in more conditions. FYI for full disclosure I now have a 44lb Spade Anchor and only 15 ft of 5/16 HT chain (yes a bit too short) on my 15,000++ lb. C36 and am very happy with it for my conditions. Some may say its a bit oversized, but I have a windlass. If I didn't I would probably have gone with the aluminum version. I have a 22lb danforth as a backup that I used for a year or two that I was satisfied with and wouldn't hesitate to use it....just as long as I made sure it was set well. I have used a CQR knockoff on an old boat and I was happy with it and from I've seen properly sized Delta's and Bruces are good too. I think the Spade's biggest weakness is in very thin, soupy mud which luckily is not too prevalent out on LI Sound. It does work very well in the LI "muck" (ala Oyster Bay), but the thiner the mud I think the less effective it is AND I really must hand it to the folks at Spade becuase they will at least admit its not their strongest point, but the real facts are its not most anchors strongest attribute. I think only adjustable anchors where the shaft angle can be modified to set the angle of the flukes to dig deeper in the mud (Like the Supermax and some types of danforths) are the only ones that seem to do really well in soupy mud. Those types of conditions seem to be mostly only prevalent in the deep south and bayous. But if I had to pick a 2nd anchor it would be the Bulwagga. The reasons being are the combination of very good holding power, not too heavy, can set & reset quickly also at a decent price (The Spade is a bit expensive). I think its biggest detriment is that it is not easy to mount with or without a bow roller and its a bit peculiar looking, but I think with some modifications you can make it work. http://www.noteco.com/bulwagga/letters.htm One more note: Typically each foot of chain is only about 1 lb per foot. So 25 feet of 5/16HT chain would be just under 25lbs.
will be better holding than a 16lb. The main reason is that the effective fluke area of the 25lb anchor will be larger than the 16lb. So for the exact same conditions the 25lb will have more surface area, thus resistance to dragging and holding the boat. The secondary reason that the 25lb will be better is that it is heavier and thus will be able to get down into the seabed to set quicker and deeper. Thats why (once they set well) you see these lightweight fortress/danforth anchors having more resistance/holding power in straight line anchoring tests than much heavier traditional anchors such as a CQR or others. But the real problem with those lightweight anchors is that they down't always set right away or well because they are so light, sometimes (due to water current or other reasons) they just "skate" away from the boat or along the bottom and don't immediately "dig in" Thus the need for the extra chain sometime to really pull the shank down and help set the anchor. Here is a nice informative site (albeit a bit biased due to the anchor it promotes). But I do truly beleive that it highlights very important apects in what is required of a good anchor. http://www.spade-anchor.com/Site%20anglais/US/technicaldetails.htm Notice it has two types of anchors rated for the same size boat, the only difference is one is aluminum and the other steel. They are rated the same because the surface area for resistance is the same. (but quietly they will admit that the steel will set a bit quicker or easier in tough conditions - ie. sea grass etc. Due to the extra weight being able to peirce through to the sea bottom) http://www.spade-anchor.co.uk/faqs.htm There is no perfect anchor and some anchors are much better for some conditions than others, but the better ones hold and set in more conditions. FYI for full disclosure I now have a 44lb Spade Anchor and only 15 ft of 5/16 HT chain (yes a bit too short) on my 15,000++ lb. C36 and am very happy with it for my conditions. Some may say its a bit oversized, but I have a windlass. If I didn't I would probably have gone with the aluminum version. I have a 22lb danforth as a backup that I used for a year or two that I was satisfied with and wouldn't hesitate to use it....just as long as I made sure it was set well. I have used a CQR knockoff on an old boat and I was happy with it and from I've seen properly sized Delta's and Bruces are good too. I think the Spade's biggest weakness is in very thin, soupy mud which luckily is not too prevalent out on LI Sound. It does work very well in the LI "muck" (ala Oyster Bay), but the thiner the mud I think the less effective it is AND I really must hand it to the folks at Spade becuase they will at least admit its not their strongest point, but the real facts are its not most anchors strongest attribute. I think only adjustable anchors where the shaft angle can be modified to set the angle of the flukes to dig deeper in the mud (Like the Supermax and some types of danforths) are the only ones that seem to do really well in soupy mud. Those types of conditions seem to be mostly only prevalent in the deep south and bayous. But if I had to pick a 2nd anchor it would be the Bulwagga. The reasons being are the combination of very good holding power, not too heavy, can set & reset quickly also at a decent price (The Spade is a bit expensive). I think its biggest detriment is that it is not easy to mount with or without a bow roller and its a bit peculiar looking, but I think with some modifications you can make it work. http://www.noteco.com/bulwagga/letters.htm One more note: Typically each foot of chain is only about 1 lb per foot. So 25 feet of 5/16HT chain would be just under 25lbs.
ps. And get rid of that vinyl coated chain ASAP
For all the reasons listed below - they can and do rust from the inside out and when you really need it one of the links will give out. If you are doing the Bahama's there can lots of rocks and coral, so be sure you have enough chain to ensure the nylon rode never "chafes or rubs" against the bottom or it will cut through your anchor line quickly. One more thing, I don't think you need Stainless Steel chain, just some good quality galanized chain should be fine. I recommend "Acco" brand. ACCO’s Grade 40 (G4) hot-galvanized, high-tensile anchor chain has become an industry standard, combining high strength in a short-link anchor chain that runs easily in anchor windlass gypsies. Although not as strong as the G4, ACCO’s Grade 30 BBB (3B) anchor chain also runs well on many windlasses for a lesser price, but you don't have to pay expensive marine prices for it I'm pretty sure Home Depot or Ace Hardware sells the same stuff. Just look for the ACCO stamp on the chain or the G4 or 3B markings
For all the reasons listed below - they can and do rust from the inside out and when you really need it one of the links will give out. If you are doing the Bahama's there can lots of rocks and coral, so be sure you have enough chain to ensure the nylon rode never "chafes or rubs" against the bottom or it will cut through your anchor line quickly. One more thing, I don't think you need Stainless Steel chain, just some good quality galanized chain should be fine. I recommend "Acco" brand. ACCO’s Grade 40 (G4) hot-galvanized, high-tensile anchor chain has become an industry standard, combining high strength in a short-link anchor chain that runs easily in anchor windlass gypsies. Although not as strong as the G4, ACCO’s Grade 30 BBB (3B) anchor chain also runs well on many windlasses for a lesser price, but you don't have to pay expensive marine prices for it I'm pretty sure Home Depot or Ace Hardware sells the same stuff. Just look for the ACCO stamp on the chain or the G4 or 3B markings
Fred, just curious, why do you say Bruces should
have all chain rodes? What do you think is going on with the Bruce with all that chain? How much scope are we talking about and what depths are you anchoring? I can imagine though that the extra chain helps greatly in keeping the anchor shaft level with the sea bottom, which might be more critical with the Bruce as the angle from the shaft to the anchor face seems to be at a much more acute angle than other anchors (http://www.bruceanchor.co.uk/Cast.gif). It actually looks parallel to the anchor face as opposed to other anchors (For instance a Delta http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/graphics/SL_delta_dims2.gif) Personally I am thinking that the 22lb Bruce is a bit marginal for a moderate displacement 34 sailboat such as yours, but I'm sure it'd be fine for most conditions Right now you have about 160lbs of chain in your bow (http://www.ahoycaptain.com/shop/im_ac40502.html) Maybe it would have been better to put more of that weight into the anchor and moved up a size or two to the 33 or the 44lb Bruce. Whats 11 lbs of anchor when you already have at least 182 lbs up there OTHER than the fact that the Bruce was already there and you didn't have to spend anymore money.
have all chain rodes? What do you think is going on with the Bruce with all that chain? How much scope are we talking about and what depths are you anchoring? I can imagine though that the extra chain helps greatly in keeping the anchor shaft level with the sea bottom, which might be more critical with the Bruce as the angle from the shaft to the anchor face seems to be at a much more acute angle than other anchors (http://www.bruceanchor.co.uk/Cast.gif). It actually looks parallel to the anchor face as opposed to other anchors (For instance a Delta http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/graphics/SL_delta_dims2.gif) Personally I am thinking that the 22lb Bruce is a bit marginal for a moderate displacement 34 sailboat such as yours, but I'm sure it'd be fine for most conditions Right now you have about 160lbs of chain in your bow (http://www.ahoycaptain.com/shop/im_ac40502.html) Maybe it would have been better to put more of that weight into the anchor and moved up a size or two to the 33 or the 44lb Bruce. Whats 11 lbs of anchor when you already have at least 182 lbs up there OTHER than the fact that the Bruce was already there and you didn't have to spend anymore money.
For what its worth
To me peace of mind is worth a lot. When I anchor out and go to town I don’t want to be worrying if my boat will be where I left it. Up here in Maine I use a plow anchor and one hundred feet of 1/4 inch chain. When I anchor (most times in about 15 feet of water) I let out about 5 to one and back up till the anchor is set and the boat cannot back any more. Then I take in some of the chain, sometimes because of limited swing room I will go down to three to one (at low tide). I have never draged and have left my boat with no nagging thoughts which is worth a lot to me. When its time to pull anchor just bring in chain until the anchor is right under the boat hook the chain and back up. The boat will pull the anchor out of the mud, then bring it in and secure it. Just that easy no winches needed.
To me peace of mind is worth a lot. When I anchor out and go to town I don’t want to be worrying if my boat will be where I left it. Up here in Maine I use a plow anchor and one hundred feet of 1/4 inch chain. When I anchor (most times in about 15 feet of water) I let out about 5 to one and back up till the anchor is set and the boat cannot back any more. Then I take in some of the chain, sometimes because of limited swing room I will go down to three to one (at low tide). I have never draged and have left my boat with no nagging thoughts which is worth a lot to me. When its time to pull anchor just bring in chain until the anchor is right under the boat hook the chain and back up. The boat will pull the anchor out of the mud, then bring it in and secure it. Just that easy no winches needed.
Tom, take a look at the setup on my web site.
Photo's 61-63 show the windlass installation. What isn't shown clearly on the site, is the room for the anchor on the roller to the windlass. My setup will not take a longer anchor. It's a perfect fit though. And you're right about Bruce's needing to be up-sized. We tried many techniques with this anchor over the years and found it didn't hold well with a short chain and rope rode. We relegated it to secondary use with our Bahamian moore. And the jury is still out on holding power with all chain. We have not anchored in any wind. But man does it grab and hold now when we set it! Our secondary anchor it a Fortress. It used to be our primary. It has 250' of 1/2" rope and a short chain. It can be brought in with the rope drum on the windlass and it has it's own new roller. The rode has never been in the water and the new roller has yet to be used. As far as scope, we are anchoring now in about 20-25'. I have been letting out about 125' of chain for that depth. More for deeper water, of course. After setting the Bruce (works the first time, except once) the chain then pulls the boat back toward the anchor and the boat stays right there. She has yet to move. I love it. All those years of doing it the hard way.
Photo's 61-63 show the windlass installation. What isn't shown clearly on the site, is the room for the anchor on the roller to the windlass. My setup will not take a longer anchor. It's a perfect fit though. And you're right about Bruce's needing to be up-sized. We tried many techniques with this anchor over the years and found it didn't hold well with a short chain and rope rode. We relegated it to secondary use with our Bahamian moore. And the jury is still out on holding power with all chain. We have not anchored in any wind. But man does it grab and hold now when we set it! Our secondary anchor it a Fortress. It used to be our primary. It has 250' of 1/2" rope and a short chain. It can be brought in with the rope drum on the windlass and it has it's own new roller. The rode has never been in the water and the new roller has yet to be used. As far as scope, we are anchoring now in about 20-25'. I have been letting out about 125' of chain for that depth. More for deeper water, of course. After setting the Bruce (works the first time, except once) the chain then pulls the boat back toward the anchor and the boat stays right there. She has yet to move. I love it. All those years of doing it the hard way.
Might as well wade into this
Everybody has their favourite anchor. Mine is the Bruce based on many years of anchoring, mostly in mud and sand. On my retired cruising boat,36', 17,000 lb.(loaded for cruising) wing keel, fairly flat bottom (stays in Lake Ontario now) I have a 33# Bruce with 50' 3/8 chain and a 35# plow with the same amount of chain. They both have 250' of 5/8 line. These two anchors never failed me. I favour the Bruce and usually use the plow in hard, grassy bottoms where the Bruce won't grab. I would have preferred all chain but didn't have a windlass. On the new cruising boat, 39' approximately 20,000 lbs. loaded for cruising I have a 44# knockoff Bruce and 200' of 3/8 chain and 200' of 5/8 three strand nylon as my primary anchor. In most instances I'll only be using 100 - 150 of chain and a good snubber. For the secondary anchor I've kept the 35# plow. If I ever lose this I'll get a good sized Delta. I love the Bruce because it always manages to reset when the boat swings. I've found the cheaper knockoff Bruces to work just as well. As for boats dragging with "high dollar anchors", there's a bit more to anchoring than just chucking the thing overboard. It takes a little while to learn how to set an anchor properly. A few cruisers never get the hang of it. A good sized anchor and lots of chain will give you a head start in the process.
Everybody has their favourite anchor. Mine is the Bruce based on many years of anchoring, mostly in mud and sand. On my retired cruising boat,36', 17,000 lb.(loaded for cruising) wing keel, fairly flat bottom (stays in Lake Ontario now) I have a 33# Bruce with 50' 3/8 chain and a 35# plow with the same amount of chain. They both have 250' of 5/8 line. These two anchors never failed me. I favour the Bruce and usually use the plow in hard, grassy bottoms where the Bruce won't grab. I would have preferred all chain but didn't have a windlass. On the new cruising boat, 39' approximately 20,000 lbs. loaded for cruising I have a 44# knockoff Bruce and 200' of 3/8 chain and 200' of 5/8 three strand nylon as my primary anchor. In most instances I'll only be using 100 - 150 of chain and a good snubber. For the secondary anchor I've kept the 35# plow. If I ever lose this I'll get a good sized Delta. I love the Bruce because it always manages to reset when the boat swings. I've found the cheaper knockoff Bruces to work just as well. As for boats dragging with "high dollar anchors", there's a bit more to anchoring than just chucking the thing overboard. It takes a little while to learn how to set an anchor properly. A few cruisers never get the hang of it. A good sized anchor and lots of chain will give you a head start in the process.
Pratical Sailor
The Sept 2004 issue of Practical Sailor (an excellent magazine) has a long article on anchoring. The sum is there is no simple answer except getting your anchor to dig in and havingenough rode so it has a low angle.
The Sept 2004 issue of Practical Sailor (an excellent magazine) has a long article on anchoring. The sum is there is no simple answer except getting your anchor to dig in and havingenough rode so it has a low angle.
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