anchor sail

Bill Murray · May 17, 2012

Sailing at anchor puts higher loads on your anchoring system. Bigger anchors help to address the loading issue and MAY hold better......

Ron20324 · May 17, 2012

The 35 should be sufficient on your boat. I have one on my 32'10" B323. The anchor makes no difference on whether the boat "sails" or not. The boat can swing on just how much rode is between the bow roller and the seabed. Get an anchor sail.

zeehag · May 17, 2012

"sailing" at anchor is called YAWING. boats without bridles yaw a lot more than do boats with a bridle set up. a bridle is merely a Y shaped anchoring set up--can also be 2 lines to a mooring. keeps boat from yawing. yawing CAN but doesnt always, cause dragging anchor, IFF the wind and seas are large enough to pull the boat to stretch the rode, causing lift of anchor shank.
it is fairly easy job to make a bridle. is merely a snubber with hook in center, or it is Y-shaped line made by splicing a center line to a solid longer one.
many overthink the situation. ALL boats yaw--fin keels do so more than do full keeled boats.
on a sloop if you want an anchor sail, it is placed on the back stay. ketches and yawls use the mizzen sail. a sail from a sabot works just fine as an anchor sail on any kind of rig.

good luck and smooth sailing.

robertsapp · May 17, 2012

Jack said:
My questions are:
1. How does a heavier/different shape anchor reduce anchor sailing?
2. Do anchor sails really work as well as the manufacturer says?

Thanks.
J&R

IMHO:

1. It doesn't. It just holds you in place a little longer as the wind continues to build and the arc through which your boat sails increases, but eventually if the wind picks up enough you'll still drag.
2. They work better on some boats than on others. They are least effective on boats with a great deal of windage located forward of the Center of Effort from things like high freeboard and forward-stepped masts. Which is exactly how Hunters are designed.

Bigger anchors, riding sails to increase windage aft, streaming a drogue from the rode, etc., are all treatments for the symptom. The only true solution is to anchor from the stern. Which, unfortunately, is a real PITA.

NYSail · May 17, 2012

Love my anchor sail.... the only problem I have ever had was one year in Block Island... night storm that had sustained winds of 50+/-. All the boats around me were swinging 180 degrees... not me though with the anchor sail. I stayed nicely into the wind.... worried about one of my neighbors hitting me.

seadaddler · May 17, 2012

Chain

I have a 35 Delta on my H-36 and found out that most boats do sail at anchor but some do less,anyway I did add a 100' of chain to my 35 Delta and with all the swinging and sailing at anchor it holds very well and been out in some real windy situations 20 mph plus with direction changes but with all my chain we do not drag.
I am thinking about a anchor sail but before I spend the $$$$ trying to borrow one if friend can find it would try it out first.
Nick

Tsatzsue · May 17, 2012

I recently read a good article in Good Ol Boat about anchor kellets. Pretty neat. Using a small mushroom anchor or coffee can full of melted lead located about a third of the way up from the anchor keeps the rode down as good as a chain. It can be adjusted up or down by utilizing a sliding shackle and separate rode. I haven't tried it yet...because I can't seem to get out but will in a few weeks. the people claim that it also helps in the swing.

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2012

Anchor sails are a recurring topic here. You can get a lot of information by doing a search on the phrase.

Also look under sentinels or kellets for earlier discussions in depth.

You can find an ANCHOR SYSTEM SIZING table here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.msg30400.html#msg30400

Sailm8 · May 17, 2012

A friend of mine just told me about the anchor kellet he was using. He made it himself from an old vinyl covered dumbbell, a carabinier and some old line. He slides it down his anchor rode until he guesses it is about 2 feet off the bottom. Says is works great. Good use for some of that exercise equipment in the basement. You know the stuff under all the clothes in the corner.

Stu Jackson · May 17, 2012

Kellets or Sentinels

From a C36 Forum discussion:

John Reimann

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 295

Anchoring lesson learned
I had another experience that I thought others might benefit from.

A couple of weekends ago, we anchored off of China Camp in the North Bay of SF Bay. Anybody who's been in this area will know that the current really rips through here. We had motored to the beach at the time that the tide changed, so we weren't on the boat when it swung. Somehow it got caught up against the rode, so that when we got back on the boat the rode was running from the bow down the (port) side of the boat to the stern.

I tried to pull it free but the current was too strong. I tried to pull the stern of the boat around with my dinghy but couldn't do that as I only have a 2hp outboard. I was afraid to motor around as I didn't know how close the line passed to the prop. I tried sailing off, but that didn't work either.

I figured that we could just leave it as is and wait until the tide shifted again. So I stretched out in the hammock I'd stretched out from the mast to the forestay. Nice and relaxing, bouncing on the waves.

After a half hour, though, I suddenly noticed that the movement of the hammock had suddenly changed. On sitting up I saw that we were dragging anchor. I tried releasing the anchor rode, but I couldn't.

On we drifted, down towards the other boats. It was a really helpless feeling as we passed one boat after another. Then a guy in a dinghy with a larger outboard came up and offered help. We tied a line from our stern to his dinghy and he was able to pull our stern around to the point where we could drift free of the line and I started up our motor, pulled our anchor and re set it.

My two biggest mistakes: (1) I should have thought of running my spare anchor out and trying to kedge us around and even if I hadn't been able to, at least I'd have had a second anchor; (2) I should have tied a buouy to my line and had a knife ready to cut the rode in case we started dragging anchor.

Anyway, lessons learned. Maybe this experience will help somebody else in a similar fix.
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1998 C36

#2

07-21-2011, 06:54 PM
stu jackson c34

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 736

John, glad you're safe. Good lesson learned. I always use a sentinel when I anchor up there. The sentinel is NOT used to keep the anchor down, but rather to keep the rode down when the boat swings. Unless it's blowing like stink when the wind shifts, it works. I've had keel wraps up there myself, before I started using the sentinel, although I've always had lots of rode out since there's so much room. I guess I was fortunate enough not to have dragged, but the motion really s*cks. Our sentinel is an 8# mushroom anchor on its own separate rode, connected with a carabiner. Most folks recommend the heftier 15# model, but ours has worked for the past 13 years.

[added] The trick with the sentinel is that when the current reverses there is usually (I say usually) little pull on the rode, so the sentinel drops the rode below the keel as the boat swings (unless it's blowing like stink when the current reverses).
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Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Last edited by stu jackson c34 : 07-22-2011 at 01:54 PM.

#3

07-21-2011, 10:27 PM

plaineolde

Captain
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Turnersville, NJ
Posts: 399

I use the identical setup that Stu has. A nearby anchorage, Fairlee Creek, has a strong incoming/outgoing tide through the 30 foot wide entrance and it creates strong eddy currents. The sentinel prevents keel wraps quite well, have never had one since I started using it.
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1997 C36 Mk II Tall Rig/Wing Keel Imagine...
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Worton Creek, Md.
Northern Chesapeake Bay

#4

07-22-2011, 02:07 PM
John Reimann

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 295

Another lesson
Okay, so now I've learned another lesson. I take it the sentinel attached through a carabiner can slide up and down the rode?
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SF Bay
1998 C36

#5

07-22-2011, 02:35 PM
stu jackson c34

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 736

Yes. Anchor normally. Attach carabiner to the shackle at the top of the sentinel and another rode to the sentinel shackle, keeping the carbiner free to move. Clip the carabiner to the main anchor rode. Drop the sentinel with its own separate rode and slide it down the anchor rode, about the depth of the water, not much more (figure high water, it'll either sit in the mud at low water - good with a mushroom sentinel anyway, or keep the rode down at higher water). Tie off the sentinel rode to one of your bow cleats. I do it off the port side, don't use the second anchor roller for the sentinel. I keep the sentinel, it's shackle, the carabiner and its own rode in the port locker. The rode is only about twenty to twenty five feet long, 3/8" 3 strand. Our anchor rode is 1/2". The carabiner is there to have a big enough opening to slide down the anchor rode, a shackle itself is too small. Makes it much easier to set and retrieve also.
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Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)
Last edited by stu jackson c34 : 08-15-2011 at 01:59 PM.

#6

07-25-2011, 07:36 AM
John Reimann

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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 295

?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying this:

You leave out about the amount of rode on the sentinel as the water depth at high tide. You clip the caribiner to the end of the anchor and around the rode of the main anchor line. In other words, the end of the sentinel is right along the end of the main anchor line and allowed to, in effect, slide up and down that rode by virtue of the fact that the carebiner is around the anchor line.)

As I'm visualizing it, this will in effect keep the anchor rode going more vertically straight down to the bottom and then horizontal along the bottom.
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1998 C36

#7

07-25-2011, 05:04 PM
stu jackson c34

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 736

Exactly, you got it. When there's no wind, what you said will happen. When the wind picks up, the sentinel will rise, but (hopefully, and based on my experiences at China Camp) when the currents reverse, the sentinel will drop down again and keep your rode from fouling your keel.
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#8

01-08-2012, 11:34 PM
bakerha

Petty Officer
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 85

Does the sentinel control anchor swing?
Stu: Just read somewhere, while investigating anchor riding sails, that also is a technique to control swing at anchor. Seems like it would help the main anchor stay put and help with bow rise and fall as well?
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S/V Lucky Duck
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1989 C-36 mkI TR/WK M25XP

#9

01-14-2012, 04:18 PM
stu jackson c34

Captain
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 736

Harold, it should work a bit when there's no wind, but when it pipes up? No, it won't help since the rode is pretty much all stretched out by then.

Like everything else with close-quarter anchoring, there simply is no magic bullet.
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Stu Jackson, C34IA Secretary, C34 #224, 1986, SR/FK, M25 engine, Rocna 10 (22#)

sailordoc89 · May 17, 2012

had a similar experience a few years ago with keel wrap, falling tide, wind/current shift and deposited up on a shallow shelf...overnight of course. Miserable night of banging on the bottom with the stern into the wind. Kedged a second anchor, cut the other one loose with a fender tied to the bitter end, waited for the tide, then retrieved the first one and got out of Dodge. Never again!!

Gunni · May 18, 2012

I would go after this issue with ground tackle. A larger anchor will stay put on a shorter scope (smaller yaw arc), and isn't so prone to popping out when the rode snatches up short at the end of the swing. A kellet and more chain would improve the rode scope, create a shorter apparent scope, and dampen the yaw. A second anchor from the bow, or if possible, off the stern would help. And then simply picking your anchorage for better protection from the wind.

At some point I suspect that these anchor sails won't do the job, and the boat will test your anchor set to failure - big change in angle, high snatch load, dragging anchor.