Have you tried rigging a bridle to pull the rode inline with the hull and point the boat dead into the wind?
Just throwing this out there...
Just throwing this out there...
Anchor Sail Update....
- Thread starter Sumner
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I have not tried that but would think it’s like balancing an egg on flat surface - it will stand until some noise (like wave) kicks it over just a tiny bit - then the instability kicks in.
I threw together this picture showing what I think is important (and could be wrong) in controlling anchor swinging. I think the goal is to control the initial rotation of the hull caused by the instability and then driven by the hull lift.
FYI, thinking about the anchor sail a little more - I think it likely is lift that aids the stability and not the drag. You can see in the attached drawing that the lift of the anchor sail is going to try and rotate the rear of the boat such that it lines up with the wind.. Both the drag bucket and the anchor sail act to counter the rotation caused by the hull lift.
(if you zoom in here, text is more readable??)
http://s359.photobucket.com/albums/.../?action=view¤t=anchorsail_bucket_1.jpg
I threw together this picture showing what I think is important (and could be wrong) in controlling anchor swinging. I think the goal is to control the initial rotation of the hull caused by the instability and then driven by the hull lift.
FYI, thinking about the anchor sail a little more - I think it likely is lift that aids the stability and not the drag. You can see in the attached drawing that the lift of the anchor sail is going to try and rotate the rear of the boat such that it lines up with the wind.. Both the drag bucket and the anchor sail act to counter the rotation caused by the hull lift.
(if you zoom in here, text is more readable??)
http://s359.photobucket.com/albums/.../?action=view¤t=anchorsail_bucket_1.jpg
We have our anchor sail tied so that it is off set from the centerline like Sailrite suggested in the instructions. Set like that it actually sails the boat off in one direction and pretty much holds it there, kind of like heaving too. It works. Does it stop all swing and all movement? No and I don't think anything will since the conditions are constantly changing. I often take the wind gauge up to check wind speeds and they are never constant even if they kind of feel constant to me. I'm sure there are always constant slight changes in direction also that we don't pick up on unless we are looking up at the windex.
The point is that a simple inexpensive anchor sail will greatly reduce swinging on anchor. Not eliminate it, but reduce it. We did have the anchor sail up while on the mooring ball in Marathon for the 4-5 days the boat was there and it did help there also,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
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yup..
Sailrite also has lots of good video including one on their anchor sail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gFPltYrCrs&feature=related
One other thing about the offset - it probably puts the anchor sail in cleaner air which would seem to be a good thing. I still have a few weeks on the mooring so will "play" with "fixing" the position of the sail Ive got - see if that improves things. Still have not seen how things work in big winds yet..
Sailrite also has lots of good video including one on their anchor sail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gFPltYrCrs&feature=related
One other thing about the offset - it probably puts the anchor sail in cleaner air which would seem to be a good thing. I still have a few weeks on the mooring so will "play" with "fixing" the position of the sail Ive got - see if that improves things. Still have not seen how things work in big winds yet..
So, you're saying, it didn't get sideways to the waves with the bucket below the bow?
(that tupperware bin is pretty big... have you tried a 5 gal bucket? think you'd get similar results? )
where you going to store the bin when you sail?
(that tupperware bin is pretty big... have you tried a 5 gal bucket? think you'd get similar results? )
where you going to store the bin when you sail?
Great photos Walt. It shows how bad the conditions can get in a hurry on our inland lakes.
On a different topic, but one that has come up lately, I think if one feels they will ever find themselves having to deal with conditions like that on the water will an electric trolling motor get them to a safe spot. If not do they have the skills and rigging to sail there? If you stay out multiple days sooner or later the weather will catch up with you,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
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On a different topic, but one that has come up lately, I think if one feels they will ever find themselves having to deal with conditions like that on the water will an electric trolling motor get them to a safe spot. If not do they have the skills and rigging to sail there? If you stay out multiple days sooner or later the weather will catch up with you,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
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Yup, this is at 8600 feet and higher mountains around (around 11.5K) - this wind came up fast but it also died down fast. Last weekend a thunderstorm blew in while I was out sailing and I just dropped sails, dropped anchor and waited about 45 minutes inside the cabin . Some of you guys have been posting pictures about anchor rollers - got me thinking about this also since having it very easy to drop an anchor that you trust is also a nice safety feature.
In the high winds, the boat still swings from the rear (almost no "sailing" from the front like it did before)- and still gets somewhat sideways to the waves but I think it’s definitely reduced. What got significantly reduced is the mooring painter going slack and then retightening. In this wind and wave condition it’s an additional big stress (especially to watch from shore if it’s your boat like I did last year- I could even hear the "whack" from shore). I could also see the rear sail working to try and correct the rear end swinging - i.e. when the rear would swing, the aft sail would fill with a force that tried to send the rear back to center. But it still did oscillate. Who knows.. It’s a very nonlinear control problem and things seem to behave differently at different wind speeds. Where does the bucket go - at this point, I think I will keep it -and simply use it in the Laz for storing stuff - I already have a few somewhat similar buckets in there, this will replace one of them. When I leave the boat on the mooring like I’m doing now, at the moment I’m still going to have both the bucket and the rear sail in place. The only change I’m going to make is to have the rear sail pointing directly backwards - I had an offset which is a good think in lighter winds - but don’t think it was a good thing when there was a lot of power in the wind. FYI, I think another reason for the anchor sail offset is also that a fixed position single surface sail also has a "dead zone" where it doesn’t generate any lift (i.e., when the sail is pointed directly into the wind - takes a few degrees either way before the sail "fills" and generates lift).
So.. what works "perfectly" in high winds don’t know - I don’t have it. It was good to not have any of the boat appendages (such as centerboard or rudder) down at all.. I watched this whole thing from shore - real happy Im not dealing with the boat washed up on the beach today.
Timebandit - hey, I love my ILM... very fast and easy to deal with the hank on jib but does look a little funny.
In the high winds, the boat still swings from the rear (almost no "sailing" from the front like it did before)- and still gets somewhat sideways to the waves but I think it’s definitely reduced. What got significantly reduced is the mooring painter going slack and then retightening. In this wind and wave condition it’s an additional big stress (especially to watch from shore if it’s your boat like I did last year- I could even hear the "whack" from shore). I could also see the rear sail working to try and correct the rear end swinging - i.e. when the rear would swing, the aft sail would fill with a force that tried to send the rear back to center. But it still did oscillate. Who knows.. It’s a very nonlinear control problem and things seem to behave differently at different wind speeds. Where does the bucket go - at this point, I think I will keep it -and simply use it in the Laz for storing stuff - I already have a few somewhat similar buckets in there, this will replace one of them. When I leave the boat on the mooring like I’m doing now, at the moment I’m still going to have both the bucket and the rear sail in place. The only change I’m going to make is to have the rear sail pointing directly backwards - I had an offset which is a good think in lighter winds - but don’t think it was a good thing when there was a lot of power in the wind. FYI, I think another reason for the anchor sail offset is also that a fixed position single surface sail also has a "dead zone" where it doesn’t generate any lift (i.e., when the sail is pointed directly into the wind - takes a few degrees either way before the sail "fills" and generates lift).
So.. what works "perfectly" in high winds don’t know - I don’t have it. It was good to not have any of the boat appendages (such as centerboard or rudder) down at all.. I watched this whole thing from shore - real happy Im not dealing with the boat washed up on the beach today.
Timebandit - hey, I love my ILM... very fast and easy to deal with the hank on jib but does look a little funny.
Incredibly large mass or.. SSL (sleeping sea lion) 
ie, jib sail bag - when I douse the hank on jib - which I can do single handed very easy from the cockpit - I just wrap the "ILM" bag around the jib where it lays on the deck.. my jib actually has battens so also no folding. When I trailer for short distances (like less than a few miles), the ILM just stays on the deck with jib inside, set up is very fast the next use.
Regarding the anchor and mooring, I remembered this post http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=843086#post843086
Since I’m on a mooring a lot more than on anchor (at least at the moment - things change every year on how I use this very versatile boat), I guess Ill leave the anchor where its out of the way..
Seriously off topic.. just some guy, where do you guys from Tucson sail?
ie, jib sail bag - when I douse the hank on jib - which I can do single handed very easy from the cockpit - I just wrap the "ILM" bag around the jib where it lays on the deck.. my jib actually has battens so also no folding. When I trailer for short distances (like less than a few miles), the ILM just stays on the deck with jib inside, set up is very fast the next use.
Regarding the anchor and mooring, I remembered this post http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=843086#post843086
Since I’m on a mooring a lot more than on anchor (at least at the moment - things change every year on how I use this very versatile boat), I guess Ill leave the anchor where its out of the way..
Seriously off topic.. just some guy, where do you guys from Tucson sail?
Walt, thanks for the definition. AZ has some of the largest man-made reservoirs in the U.S. There's Roosevelt Lake, about 140 miles north of Tucson. I'll bet some go up to the Phoenix area's Lake Pleasant. And for the truly adventurous/courageous, there's the Sea of Cortez to the southwest.
Don't you think the ILM might be part of the problem?
After bagging it could not you chuck it in the cabin?
I hank on and it really does not take that long.
After bagging it could not you chuck it in the cabin?
I hank on and it really does not take that long.
Incredibly large mass or.. SSL (sleeping sea lion)
ie, jib sail bag - when I douse the hank on jib - which I can do single handed very easy from the cockpit - I just wrap the "ILM" bag around the jib where it lays on the deck.. my jib actually has battens so also no folding. When I trailer for short distances (like less than a few miles), the ILM just stays on the deck with jib inside, set up is very fast the next use.
Regarding the anchor and mooring, I remembered this post http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=843086#post843086
Since I’m on a mooring a lot more than on anchor (at least at the moment - things change every year on how I use this very versatile boat), I guess Ill leave the anchor where its out of the way..
Seriously off topic.. just some guy, where do you guys from Tucson sail?
The ILM is certainly in about the worst possible place for air drag.. but I would guess that it still has less drag (and less problem) than roller furling. I think this would actually be fairly easy to estimate - find the "cross section" area of a rolled up furler and the cross section area of the ILM.. Drag Coefficient for a cylinder is easy to find, you would have to assume some DC for the ILM. Probably can just compare cross section area.
I could put the hank on inside the boat but all these little things that take time end up being a deterrent to me actually "sailing" the boat - so I leave it as is. I think you are correct - it probably would make some difference..
justsomeguy.. thanks. I was also wondering if Patagonia was large enough to sail?? You should check out Lake Havasu in Feb... lots of trailerable sailboats there, you can race or be casual.. good time.
I could put the hank on inside the boat but all these little things that take time end up being a deterrent to me actually "sailing" the boat - so I leave it as is. I think you are correct - it probably would make some difference..
justsomeguy.. thanks. I was also wondering if Patagonia was large enough to sail?? You should check out Lake Havasu in Feb... lots of trailerable sailboats there, you can race or be casual.. good time.
Patagonia- 260 acres.
Roosevelt- 13,058 acres
Havasu (19,300) looks pretty good. Now that my trailer is somewhat safer, I just may check that lake out. Thanks.
Roosevelt- 13,058 acres
Havasu (19,300) looks pretty good. Now that my trailer is somewhat safer, I just may check that lake out. Thanks.
How about Lake Pleasant???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Pleasant_Regional_Park
We have driven to it along with Roosevelt and would like to take the boat down there at some point. The only problem is that it would be best to do it at the end of the season as they are listed as 'Zebra Mussel' lakes, so it would present some problems going from there and then to Powell one after the other. Our Mac came from Phoenix, so it probably knows its way around the lakes there.
Walt have you gotten any mussels on the boat that you have seen in Havasu? Not sure how long it takes for them to attach or grow,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
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Lake Pleasant would be a much flatter drive from Tucson, to be sure. And you wouldn't have to tack or gybe every few minutes.
I've joined the marina association up at Roosevelt, but I think the same entity handles Lake Pleasant's marina. I wonder if my privileges extend to Pleasant, also. Thanks for piquing my interest on that!
I've joined the marina association up at Roosevelt, but I think the same entity handles Lake Pleasant's marina. I wonder if my privileges extend to Pleasant, also. Thanks for piquing my interest on that!
Patagonia.. hmm.. not very big.. I sail at a 880 acre lake also and its fine when its empty of power boats but it doesnt take many water skiing to get crowded. I think some of the arizona trailer sailer guys were going to Roosevelt on the next full moon (see this forum) http://www.quicktopic.com/40/H/LSmQsY3ZHAv
zebra musells..
My boat was in Havasu for a week - didnt see anything growing on the hull at all. Ive got bottom paint on my boat (Petit Vivid). Its the ballast tank that is the big issue. My boat sat in Lake Havasu (not in the water) from Feb until about June so I know the tank was bone dry - and when I brought it back to the lake in Colorado, I told them the whole story (and know the people that work in the park since Im always up there) and they just let me put the boat back in the lake without the decontamination. But... its not so easy to simply trailer water ballast around anymore in Colorado where the sport fishing economy is so important. Arizona seems more lax about things than Colorado. FYI, I understand the mussels have made the water at Lake Havasu a lot more clear..
zebra musells..
My boat was in Havasu for a week - didnt see anything growing on the hull at all. Ive got bottom paint on my boat (Petit Vivid). Its the ballast tank that is the big issue. My boat sat in Lake Havasu (not in the water) from Feb until about June so I know the tank was bone dry - and when I brought it back to the lake in Colorado, I told them the whole story (and know the people that work in the park since Im always up there) and they just let me put the boat back in the lake without the decontamination. But... its not so easy to simply trailer water ballast around anymore in Colorado where the sport fishing economy is so important. Arizona seems more lax about things than Colorado. FYI, I understand the mussels have made the water at Lake Havasu a lot more clear..
Nice picture Walt, guess we will have to try and make it there also. I know a lot of power boaters from CA make it to Havasu. Is that a problem or is the lake plenty big? Another lake I've driven by, but haven't been on the water :cry:,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
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Ive only been going there in the poor economy years but I have just never thought it was that crowded. Were planning on going again in October, Ill go out during mid week with the C15 shown in that picture and probably will hardly see another boat. In the summer on the weekends, you will see the big power boats - but they dont go fast for very long (who can afford the gas???). Its a big lake.. there is one free launch which I always use which will probably be a mess this weekend but usually go mid week when Im there and have no wait even at the free launch.
Top secret (good to be buried here)- Nice little retirement deal ... you can take a livable trailerable sailboat to Lake Havasu for a month or two during the winter, rent a slip for 200 a month, join some sort of senior fitness center which also allows you to shower.. ride a bike to many areas of the town. Easy to do even when every single RV site in the whole area was filled up..
Top secret (good to be buried here)- Nice little retirement deal ... you can take a livable trailerable sailboat to Lake Havasu for a month or two during the winter, rent a slip for 200 a month, join some sort of senior fitness center which also allows you to shower.. ride a bike to many areas of the town. Easy to do even when every single RV site in the whole area was filled up..
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